Comprehensive Z-4000 Guide ??

John, the best source I know is in The DCS Companion sold on the DCS website.

Extensive information is in the following pages:  P 41 TRACK SETUP, Page 55  Z4K Tracks, Page 69   MTH Transformers, and Page 97 to 101  Z4K Tracks  with Z4000 Remote Commander Receiver.

@Susan Deats posted:

John, the best source I know is in The DCS Companion sold on the DCS website.

Extensive information is in the following pages:  P 41 TRACK SETUP, Page 55  Z4K Tracks, Page 69   MTH Transformers, and Page 97 to 101  Z4K Tracks  with Z4000 Remote Commander Receiver.

Thanks Susan.  I'll order one.

And by the way, you have one of the most helpful websites in the hobby.

Thanks,

John

Follow-up:

The book is excellent for someone who has a now unavailable (for less than the cost of a mortgage) TIU and Remote.  I'ts a great book and I am not sorry I bought it, but it doesn't help me much.

Here is the equipment I have at present:

1.  Layout consisting of two concentric Fastrack Loops with two center rail toggled crossover sections.

2.  A homemade 4-pin interface terminal consisting of a hot lead for each loop, an auxiliary lead, and a common ground for all three.

3.  I have a power station that plugs into it consisting of two transformers:

One MTH-Z1000 (with the auxiliary utilized), and one MRC low power transformer.

What I want to do is to figure out how I can unplug the existing power station from the 4-pin interface and plug in a different one to run MTH trains.

Here is what I own to do that with:

1.  An MTH Z-4000

2.  An MTH DCS Remote Commander

3.  An MTH DCS Explorer

I am not sure how to wire them to the four pin interface for the layout.

Thanks,

John

I am going to move my last question to a new topic in the DCS forum

John

@Craftech posted:

Follow-up:

The book is excellent for someone who has a now unavailable (for less than the cost of a mortgage) TIU and Remote.  I'ts a great book and I am not sorry I bought it, but it doesn't help me much.

Here is the equipment I have at present:

1.  Layout consisting of two concentric Fastrack Loops with two center rail toggled crossover sections.

2.  A homemade 4-pin interface terminal consisting of a hot lead for each loop, an auxiliary lead, and a common ground for all three.

3.  I have a power station that plugs into it consisting of two transformers:

One MTH-Z1000 (with the auxiliary utilized), and one MRC low power transformer.

What I want to do is to figure out how I can unplug the existing power station from the 4-pin interface and plug in a different one to run MTH trains.

Here is what I own to do that with:

1.  An MTH Z-4000

2.  An MTH DCS Remote Commander

3.  An MTH DCS Explorer

I am not sure how to wire them to the four pin interface for the layout.

Thanks,

John

I'm not sure what you are intending to do here. I get the frustration and lack of TIUs and high cost of used DCS components, however you have what can be good items to have- when used properly.

Example, both the DCS wifi Explorer and the IR commander are weaker single channel output track interfaces for the DCS signal. By that, I mean the actual DCS signal output on the track is not as strong as even one channel of a given TIU- and can be attenuated or degraded quite easily to the point DCS signals and locomotive control becomes problematic.

Then we get into little tidbits like- the Wifi explorer needs a CONSTANT power source and also, cannot be used in passive mode for higher current bypass. In other words- connecting it to your Z4000 is a problem IMO for a bunch of reasons as a power source.  #1 When turning the Z4000 on, the handles MUST be down in the off position. You then have to raise the handle to the desired voltage. You cannot just leave a handle up and turn on and off the Z4000. Again, let me state this- the Wifi Explorer is a tiny off the shelf module running an operating system from flash memory, and I have found that dropping power at the wrong time during the boot sequence can then corrupt that module in a way that no amount of hoping, praying, pressing the reset button is going to resolve the corruption. Again, all reasons why a variable output channel from a Z4000 are not the best and most reliable way of powering this device, and further, the high current capability of the Z4000- compared to the limited no more than 6A input labeled on the device is another problem. In fact, the current limiting and even the 5A rated fuse- people have still blown sky high these explorers in track short events. And we aren't even touching on the problems of the DCS application side of this when used with the limitations of the wifi explorer.

In short, the Wifi Explorer box:

#1 definite current (Amperage) limitations, both on what should be provided for input and what it can output. The built in current limiting has failed many folks and blown up.

#2 It requires a constant fixed voltage source to power up and boot up. It is not recommended to be used with variable power input sources. While some might say you "can get away with it", head the warnings before you brick it.

#3 Cannot be used in passive mode as a DCS signal source only (not passing power "through" it). passive mode in theory could at least work around the current limitations of the device.

#4 Has pretty serious limitations in the DCS app control system (example no steaming whistle function, no lashups, limited to 3 engines max, doesn't work with all engines -example won't work with my PS3 Monorail).

OK fine, so you have the IR commander. The good news is, they can be run in passive mode, so that's one bonus. Catch22, it requires any engine for it to control to be at default ID 1. Now where this is going to cause you massive grief, if any engine you add to your Wifi is going to have an address likely not 1 after the first engine, so then that same engine has to be reset before the IR commander could control it on the other track.

Again, in a way, you have 2 kinda sorta incompatible control methods due to the ID addressing scheme and limitations.

It can be used together, I'll try to make a "suggested" diagram, however, again, I have reservations about powering a DCS wifi explorer box with a Z4000.

@Vernon Barry posted:

I'm not sure what you are intending to do here. I get the frustration and lack of TIUs and high cost of used DCS components, however you have what can be good items to have- when used properly.

Example, both the DCS wifi Explorer and the IR commander are weaker single channel output track interfaces for the DCS signal. By that, I mean the actual DCS signal output on the track is not as strong as even one channel of a given TIU- and can be attenuated or degraded quite easily to the point DCS signals and locomotive control becomes problematic.

Then we get into little tidbits like- the Wifi explorer needs a CONSTANT power source and also, cannot be used in passive mode for higher current bypass. In other words- connecting it to your Z4000 is a problem IMO for a bunch of reasons as a power source.  #1 When turning the Z4000 on, the handles MUST be down in the off position. You then have to raise the handle to the desired voltage. You cannot just leave a handle up and turn on and off the Z4000. Again, let me state this- the Wifi Explorer is a tiny off the shelf module running an operating system from flash memory, and I have found that dropping power at the wrong time during the boot sequence can then corrupt that module in a way that no amount of hoping, praying, pressing the reset button is going to resolve the corruption. Again, all reasons why a variable output channel from a Z4000 are not the best and most reliable way of powering this device, and further, the high current capability of the Z4000- compared to the limited no more than 6A input labeled on the device is another problem. In fact, the current limiting and even the 5A rated fuse- people have still blown sky high these explorers in track short events. And we aren't even touching on the problems of the DCS application side of this when used with the limitations of the wifi explorer.

In short, the Wifi Explorer box:

#1 definite current (Amperage) limitations, both on what should be provided for input and what it can output. The built in current limiting has failed many folks and blown up.

#2 It requires a constant fixed voltage source to power up and boot up. It is not recommended to be used with variable power input sources. While some might say you "can get away with it", head the warnings before you brick it.

#3 Cannot be used in passive mode as a DCS signal source only (not passing power "through" it). passive mode in theory could at least work around the current limitations of the device.

#4 Has pretty serious limitations in the DCS app control system (example no steaming whistle function, no lashups, limited to 3 engines max, doesn't work with all engines -example won't work with my PS3 Monorail).

OK fine, so you have the IR commander. The good news is, they can be run in passive mode, so that's one bonus. Catch22, it requires any engine for it to control to be at default ID 1. Now where this is going to cause you massive grief, if any engine you add to your Wifi is going to have an address likely not 1 after the first engine, so then that same engine has to be reset before the IR commander could control it on the other track.

Again, in a way, you have 2 kinda sorta incompatible control methods due to the ID addressing scheme and limitations.

It can be used together, I'll try to make a "suggested" diagram, however, again, I have reservations about powering a DCS wifi explorer box with a Z4000.

I guess I should delete the other post Vernon.

I have a Z-1000 brick I can power the WiFi Explorer with as well as a bunch of different wall warts so I don't have to use the Z-4000 for anything other than track and auxiliary power.

The diagram would be truly appreciated.

1.  Also, can't I reset the engines to factory defaults using the DCS WiFi explorer?  I don't think I can with the Z-4000 but It says I can with the explorer.

2.  Can I tie the commons together on the back of the Z-4000?

Thanks,

John

@Craftech posted:

1.  Also, can't I reset the engines to factory defaults using the DCS WiFi explorer?  I don't think I can with the Z-4000 but It says I can with the explorer.Yes, DCS wifi explorer is very easy to reset engines.

2.  Can I tie the commons together on the back of the Z-4000? They are already tied in common from the factory.

Thanks,

John

Back at catch22. If you use more than one transformer, in such a system with a shared common- you must ensure phasing of the multiple transformers. If you use only one multiple output transformer- example Z4000, then all outputs of that transformer are already in phase.

Example wiring of Z4000 for 2 loops of track, one controlled with IR commander, one with Wifi Explorer.

Source for power jack adapters Search "2.1x5.5MM DC Power Jack Plug Adapter Connector"

Again, while I think the Z1000 brick is a great thing and directly plugs into either the Wifi explorer or the IR Commander, the instant you have that transformer+ another transformer- phasing likely comes into play.

Edit- and the catch 22 is knowing how to check and properly phase that with another transformer- since it ends in a barrel jack.

Even further down the rabbit hole- say you plug the Z1000 into the wifi explorer. OK, fine, to test for phasing, you have to send a command to the explorer using the app, to ensure the track is on- before the output of the explorer is enabled- so you could even properly check and wire compared to another transformer.

Because the round coaxial jack adds a layer of complexity- the risk or not testing for phasing correctly and getting it wrong with another transformer I feel is a significant risk.

Again, ideally using one transformer (Z4K) that can run multiple (2 tracks) plus also have accessory voltages, all already common, is a huge advantage IMO.

@Vernon Barry posted:

Back at catch22. If you use more than one transformer, in such a system with a shared common- you must ensure phasing of the multiple transformers. If you use only one multiple output transformer- example Z4000, then all outputs of that transformer are already in phase.

Example wiring of Z4000 for 2 loops of track, one controlled with IR commander, one with Wifi Explorer.

Source for power jack adapters Search "2.1x5.5MM DC Power Jack Plug Adapter Connector"

Thanks for the diagram Vernon.

1.  I have the barrel jack adapters to bring the two Z-4000 track power outputs into the power inputs of the IR Commander and WiFi Explorer, but I am still not clear what the recommended power output settings for each track output should be.

2.  The Acc output only needs the HOT.  Is that correct?

3.  The layout is 4 x 8 so wouldn't either the IR Commander or the WiFi Explorer run the entire layout (both loops) if needed?

4.  The Lagacy Command Base is there from another application I would assume because I don't have one.

Thanks,

John

@Craftech posted:

Thanks for the diagram Vernon.

1.  I have the barrel jack adapters to bring the two Z-4000 track power outputs into the power inputs of the IR Commander and WiFi Explorer, but I am still not clear what the recommended power output settings for each track output should be.18V

2.  The Acc output only needs the HOT.  Is that correct? Correct, because you said you shared common with the track, so common is common. You can duplicate the wire if needed for a given accessory, but again, common is in fact common.

3.  The layout is 4 x 8 so wouldn't either the IR Commander or the WiFi Explorer run the entire layout (both loops) if needed? Sure, but because these have an amperage limitation- and safe operation is LESS than the maximum, and the potential for two or more trains with cars to begin nearing that limit- that's your physical limit. The IR commander would control all engines at ID1 with the same function /speed/etc... The Wifi Explorer in theory can control 2 up to 3 trains and switch between them in the app, however again, the current flowing through that device is the limitation.

Thanks,

John

18V - as indicated in the diagram

@Vernon Barry posted:

18V - as indicated in the diagram

Thanks for answering all those questions Vernon. 

John

I know you can do a full factory reset (ID and all) on something like a PS2 with the Wi Fi Explorer, but what about with the Z-4000.  Is that one 2-way that allows a full factory reset or does it only allow a feature reset?

Thanks,

John

If you run the DCS Explorer with the Z1000 brick that will help a lot. A 4x8 can tax the brick that comes with the DCS Explorer to the point where the circuit breaker will trip when you try to throw a switch.

The Z500 brick that came with my DCS Remote Commander has always seemed sufficient. Probably due to the one locomotive limit.

@Craftech posted:

I know you can do a full factory reset (ID and all) on something like a PS2 with the Wi Fi Explorer, but what about with the Z-4000.  Is that one 2-way that allows a full factory reset or does it only allow a feature reset?

Thanks,

John

Just answered in another place a topic where a user tried on a PS2 3V and conventional (AKA Z4000 method bell and whistle sequence from neutral) was unable to reset that loco to ID 1 to be used with a an IR commander. Also locally, another train club member also recently fought this and we had to use a DCS system to reset that loco for the same reasons.

Yes, when it works, conventional reset is great and easy- when it doesn't and you are stuck- then suddenly the limitations of some of these lower end DCS systems can be upsetting.

@Vernon Barry - really enjoy your wide-ranging contributions regarding DCS topics.  I often learn about things that I didn't even know that I don't know.  Have you considered contacting @Allan Miller about being a regular contributor to the magazine?  IMO, a regular DCS column would be a good idea.

I appreciate your thorough and patient approach - please keep it up.

@Vernon Barry posted:

Example wiring of Z4000 for 2 loops of track, one controlled with IR commander, one with Wifi Explorer.