Cost of New Tinplate Tooling

I think your estimated sales numbers are too high. The new 400E's all have great color schemes yet most are not sold out and there are only 10 of each being made.

Scott Smith

From what I understand not all 400Es will not be from every dealer. 

400E’s have been around for awhile done in most every color scheme imaginable. I have not seen very many GG1’s.  I’m just not sure 200 units would cover cost of design and manufacturing of tooling for the GG1.  Cars are already there.  Just have to come up with a new paint scheme.

I think that you guys are missing my point.  The 400E has nothing to do with my question.  At least 150 Brute Sets were made and sold out---all new tooling for those products.   Now,how about 150 600E's or GG1's with existing passenger cars?  Would they sell? 

I personally saw one standard gauge GG1 with matching passenger cars running at a show here in suburban Pittsburgh.

Norm

As I recall learning/hearing. . . and this was some time back. . . I believe completely new locomotive tooling and associated "stuff" costs around $250,000.

With all the computerized CNC more available,  it seems making stamping dies would be cheaper by now.

i will never understand the obsession with big locomotives.  a Std Gauge GG1?... at 1:26.6 you're looking at a locomotive 36" long.  about the only Christmas tree that would look good running around would be in Rockefeller Center.  looking at steam, i'd like to see a ten wheeler... a 4-6-0.  it would be the least expensive way to get to a 6-wheel drive configuration while likely being smaller than a 400e.  ten wheelers were also for the most part dual purpose locomotive which would look equally good pulling a short freight, a passenger train or a mixed consist.

a good next step would be to take the same boiler and design an 8-wheel (w/ smaller wheels for freight) drive creating a 2-8-0 Consolidation or a 2-8-2 Mikado type.  blinding the center drive wheels on both the 6 or 8-wh drives would still allow for tight radii, but would also look good on newer 72" diameter standard gauge curves.

women have had the right idea for years ... good things come in small packages.
cheers...gary

  Was it made? I think the GG-1 stands a chance at exceeding any previous sales figures just because it's a GG-1; an engine with many "rabid" collectors of "every version made"; including many collections that span any scale. It's like saying a tin Super Cheif would bomb. Too many fans imo.

A compressed, less than scale length GG1 like the one John Daniels once produced would not be bad looking. A friend of mine had a green one with stripes and it was nicely done.

As someone who has re gauged G. To run on STD ga. And made my own STD ga berk.

I don't see this 250 thou for tooling.  the motors and side plates just need to be modified. For any wheel arrangements.

With computer..done in minutes. As I have said in other posts.. They are to expensive.. Except for upper income..

They are missing out on the lower .Income sales..

They also need to get back to selling to discount stores.. That's where my first Lionel train came from..

Tinplate Art posted:

A compressed, less than scale length GG1 ... would not be bad looking...

you're right, bad looking would be an understatement.

Really? - have you ever actually seen a JAD GG1?

overlandflyer posted:

Tinplate Art posted:

A compressed, less than scale length GG1 ... would not be bad looking...

you're right, bad looking would be an understatement.

Here's the Standard Gauge GG1 and heavyweight cars made by John Daniel. They loco and cars are far from scale, but does scale really matter when it comes to Standard Gauge? For many of us, full-scale Standard Gauge trains would be way too big to fit on our layouts. I'd love to own a Daniel GG1, but the weak link on them is the powertrain, making them poor runners unless a major and costly overhaul is done. I own a set of the cars, and they are extremely well-done--sort of an enlarged version of the O-gauge Baby Madison cars. 

John

I always liked the looks of the JAD GG1, but did not know they were poor runners.  

Norm posted:

Now, how about 150 600E's

I wish someone would bring back the 600e. There aren't too many non-Lionel tinplate trains that I really want, but that one is at the top of my list. I doubt I'll ever find one though.

overlandflyer posted:

you're right, bad looking would be an understatement.

Just like the Lionel (and others) "semi=scale" GG1?

My version of the 600e is in the works.  But using 400e boiler and frame. And build a loco motor.

Putting the middle wheel  in is the  hang up. With the gears..

My own motor/wheel block not a problem...

But I want to use the build a loco motor

I will be building a small run of standard gauge GG1's but not for another year. For those familiar with the a gold Standard GG1 made by Bob Hendrichs, mine will be along the same size. About 30" long, drive wheels are 1.8" diameter and are already Cnc machined and chemically blackened. Body will be cast aluminum based on a 3D print I have already completed.  Expect to make 6 of them and then see what the demand is. Will have heavy can motors and Boston gears, and aluminum machined frames with electronic reverse.  

Stay tuned

jim Waterman

riki posted:

My version of the 600e is in the works.  But using 400e boiler and frame. And build a loco motor.

Putting the middle wheel  in is the  hang up. With the gears..

My own motor/wheel block not a problem...

But I want to use the build a loco motor

I Amy be able to provide a part to you that extends the bild a loco motor for the third axle. I use them to build the Harmon Challenger a 4-6-6-4 steamer that is over 52" long with tender

Jim Waterman

I would be EXTREMELY interested in a Standard Gauge GG1!

Jim, I'd be interested too...….depending on the curves required. My SG track is 72" curves. 

John

Jim Waterman posted:

riki posted:

My version of the 600e is in the works.  But using 400e boiler and frame. And build a loco motor.

Putting the middle wheel  in is the  hang up. With the gears..

My own motor/wheel block not a problem...

But I want to use the build a loco motor

I Amy be able to provide a part to you that extends the bild a loco motor for the third axle. I use them to build the Harmon Challenger a 4-6-6-4 steamer that is over 52" long with tender

 

Jim Waterman

 

 

 

 

Jim, does the extended motor have 3 powered axles or only 2?

Steve

Thanks Jim

Does it keep the wheels spaced right?.  Is it that add-on back of motor frame?. Blind middle wheel?.

Great to see someone making STD...

Jim,

I would like more info on your GG1 plans.  Please email me (in my profile).

Norm

if you want to go electric, i still don't get the pantograph look sans a centenary feed no one would ever build.  there are some great diesel electrics i'm pretty sure have never been done...

size would be a more reasonable ~15" and they were used as short consist road engines... a small train that would be a lot more realistic in scale and prototypical use.  i'd buy one.

cheers...gary

Scale and prototypical tinplate?   I think that there would be a very small interest in that.

Norm 

Norm posted:

Scale and prototypical tinplate?   I think that there would be a very small interest in that.

wow only two sentences and you didn't bother to read them?

"... a small train that would be a lot more realistic in scale and prototypical use."

if i actually have to spell it out... A LOT MORE than a hideous looking compressed GG-1.  if there is any conciliation to the Lionel packaging of this classic locomotive, i'm guessing Raymond Loewy might be having a good laugh up there.

I read your post....and understand it.  I still think that there would be little interest in scale or prototypical tinplate.

To each his own.

Norm

BlueComet400 posted:

overlandflyer posted:

Tinplate Art posted:

A compressed, less than scale length GG1 ... would not be bad looking...

you're right, bad looking would be an understatement.

Here's the Standard Gauge GG1 and heavyweight cars made by John Daniel. They loco and cars are far from scale, but does scale really matter when it comes to Standard Gauge? For many of us, full-scale Standard Gauge trains would be way too big to fit on our layouts. I'd love to own a Daniel GG1, but the weak link on them is the powertrain, making them poor runners unless a major and costly overhaul is done. I own a set of the cars, and they are extremely well-done--sort of an enlarged version of the O-gauge Baby Madison cars. 

John

would not the cars from the lti commodore Vanderbilt be correct for this?

A few comments on tooling cost:

For something like a 400E type loco, there are a lot of tools for stamping and forming, and for die casting. These can be very costly. But it is designed for high production, I'll bet there are thousands of MTH 400E's out there. 

I am moving to water jet cutting of sheet metal, but we are still talking flat and not formed - that gets much more difficult. The McCoy, CMT and Forney cars are examples of low cost tooling. I have used it for the Daylight mechanism frames, super accurate and great finishing.

For castings, if you can go sand casting, it's all about a pattern, which can be made of wood or metal, and can be hand formed. Castings are much rougher than die cast, but cost of tooling is significantly less than a die cast tool set. A trade off. The Lee Lines and Harmon locos and cars I make use simple sheet metal and sand castings. And an occasional resin cast plastic part, which also starts with a pattern and a silicon mold, cheap and good for low volumes. 

3D printing enables cheap one off trains (like my PRR K4), or low cost patterns for sand casting (which I will do eventually). You just need a good 3D CAD model, and there are some good young designers out there doing wonderful work (see Shapeways). But tinplate guys don't like plastic!

What I find hard to find are good motors and gears that will hold up and provide the pulling power. 

So bottom line, if you are making short runs like Harmon, Roberts Lines, CMT and others have done (and Dave Carse is doing now with CMT), there are low cost tooling processes (less than $10K), enabling pretty nice unique end items. If you want something like the 400E, or like the Lionel Hiawatha set of the early 2000's, you are talking a quarter of a million $ for the whole tool string, which requires 500 or more units to justify.

Jim Waterman

Here's a photo of a Gold Standard GG1 vs the Daniels GG1. Last photo is my 3D printed shell, two pieces each 15" long, about 2-3 inches longer than the Gold standard and a little thinner in width.

Jim

Steve "Papa" Eastman posted:

Jim Waterman posted:

riki posted:

My version of the 600e is in the works.  But using 400e boiler and frame. And build a loco motor.

Putting the middle wheel  in is the  hang up. With the gears..

My own motor/wheel block not a problem...

But I want to use the build a loco motor

I Amy be able to provide a part to you that extends the bild a loco motor for the third axle. I use them to build the Harmon Challenger a 4-6-6-4 steamer that is over 52" long with tender

 

Jim Waterman

 

 

 

 

Jim, does the extended motor have 3 powered axles or only 2?

Steve

Steve, the third axle is powered by the siderods, uses two 400E side rods fused together. Can configure with blind in the middle or outside. In this case (and many of the Harmons), blind drivers are the third ones. so it navigates 42" diameter 

riki posted:

Thanks Jim

Does it keep the wheels spaced right?.  Is it that add-on back of motor frame?. Blind middle wheel?.

Great to see someone making STD...

 

In this case, the blind is the third axle, can be center, but tougher to run. axle spacing is same as Bild a Loco centers. 

Jim

BlueComet400 posted:

Jim, I'd be interested too...….depending on the curves required. My SG track is 72" curves. 

John

Will easily navigate 72" diameter, just watch for overhangs of the cab. Might take out some accessories. 

Jim

riki posted:

My version of the 600e is in the works.  But using 400e boiler and frame. And build a loco motor.

Putting the middle wheel  in is the  hang up. With the gears..

My own motor/wheel block not a problem...

But I want to use the build a loco motor

If you can find some of the MEW AF 1-7/8" diameter drivers, you can make a mechanism that will fit in the 400E. Hennings does not have the tooling for those, but some stock may be available here and there from old production. The Lee Lines 4-8-4 uses those smaller drivers. 

Jim

Jim Waterman posted:

Steve "Papa" Eastman posted:

Jim Waterman posted:

riki posted:

My version of the 600e is in the works.  But using 400e boiler and frame. And build a loco motor.

Putting the middle wheel  in is the  hang up. With the gears..

My own motor/wheel block not a problem...

But I want to use the build a loco motor

I Amy be able to provide a part to you that extends the bild a loco motor for the third axle. I use them to build the Harmon Challenger a 4-6-6-4 steamer that is over 52" long with tender

 

Jim Waterman

 

 

 

 

Jim, does the extended motor have 3 powered axles or only 2?

Steve

Steve, the third axle is powered by the siderods, uses two 400E side rods fused together. Can configure with blind in the middle or outside. In this case (and many of the Harmons), blind drivers are the third ones. so it navigates 42" diameter 

Jim, I’d like one for future projects.

Steve

Jim great engine s.

See that's what I was trying to avoid.

I want even spacing. Getting a smaller drive gear s made would solve it or another pinion gears ?. Spur gears?. 

Was looking for someone to make a template for motor frame. I want to expand the build a loco motor frames. For the third axle. And move the other axles.

The third axle could be driven (by gear)...  My STD berk will run on 072.  Of coarse the 4 blind wheels overhang. No biggie .. Used Mc coy wheels..

It's set up like the 0 ga.. Rear drive..only.

Hello all......new models in standard gauge to be built by the big boys with mass production ....probably not in your or my lifetime.    Take the time machine back to 2000 when Lionel was tooling up for their first newly designed  standard gauge set since 1933.   As Jim pointed out  about 250,000 for tooling .... Lionel anticipates selling 750 sets ...due to the assumed huge demand for a "new " standard gauge product .... 750 are produced ...about 550-600 are sold  in a reasonable time frame ..sitting on 150 + sets retailing at 2K each is a costly mistake ....  Lionel is hustled into taking over the Commodore project begun and abandoned by K line ..... due to the sagging Hiawatha sales only 450 Commodores are produced ..again the waiting eager buyer's orders are filled and the warehouse still has a pile of unsold sets ....  as a company Lionel has to budget a line number for each project ... X dollars invested per set  returning Y as profit  based  on a fixed number of sold sets...  with unsold sets you are losing $$$$$$$$$....   Lionel slashes prices of the two sets to move  unsold  sets to cover money out laid for the projects...    by deep huge  discounts direct to anyone with money  ..deeper then  offered to it's dealers ..Lionel is able to move some sets, **** off their dealers, and **** off the originally happy initial buyers of the sets who paid full retail .   ..   ..a trifecta !    

So everything is math      had Lionel  only produced 400 of each set the tooling costs would have been  250,000 divided by 400 =  $625 just in tooling costs assigned per set ... now you have to produce the set ... perhaps add some paint , a box , ship it back from Korea ... oh my  no way I'm going to make money here ....they never would have green lighted the project with such low projected sales figures . 

Now that was with the number of active buyers/ collectors in 2001 ......  this is 2018 ... are there 50%  or 60% of that number of active buyers/ collectors today ???? .... 

So new standard gauge by the big boys ..no .. there no market to justify the tooling costs .....   the tooling for the 400E , 408 etc was paid for 20 + years ago ...so it only costs a few bucks for a new can of paint to produced those sets ....  reissuing the Hiawatha and Commodore in   pink or camouflage... oh pray that never happens . 

Most the "Modern Age" standard gauge manufactures  Lee Lines, Goldstar, Liberty Lines, Glenns  etc ... if they could produce and sell 50 pieces it was Christmas ... and that was with sales stretching  out  over many years ... yes this was their hobby , side job ,   passion .... hard to make a living with such a limited audience .....     

We as a hobby are very  fortunate to have Jim Waterman  carry the torch for Lee Lines , Harmon and Robert Lines ..and Dave with CMC ..... both working with small production numbers and a one to one with their customer base to measure the interest for future innovations.    I'd look to them for new products not Lionel or MTH . 

Cheers Carey 

Might as well throw my hat into this subject. 

   I have been looking to mfg. more wheels to add to our pre-war offerings on Lionel,  Ives and AF "O" .    As you know, we are proud of our MEW parts ,all made in the U.S.A. , as well as all of our transformer handles, and other plastic injection molds, and stampings. At prices ranging from $5K up for just 1 wheel mold, + maybe an insert in the design to reuse the mold for a gear wheel or a driver lug added   ( there are at least 2 different, & up to 4 different wheels per loco ) ,the cost can go up to $15K per 4 pc. wheel set castings, not counting stamping tooling,  if a nickel rim is required.  I am still working on contacting shops to possibly modify several of our wheel molds to make the AF "O" steam wheel w/ the wrap-a-round rim.  Then the next thing is how many can you sell?  An "O" quality die cast metal wheel, cast, reamed to axle size, drilled and tapped for rods , then painted, cleaned and rim mounted can run typically + or - $4.00 each.  If I sold as we do now @$36.00 a set retail, ( $20 a set profit ) not counting labor, it would take sales of 400 to 500 sets just to brake even, Still no repayment for labor.  We currently sell to dealers 6 sets assorted for $27.00 a set.  Brake even at this price would be 800 - 1000 sets. Still NO LABOR return for me.  

I think what we need is a maybe retired machinist to make the molds as a "love of trains project " at 1960's prices.  This I could afford as my own labor prices my sons say is "CHEAP".  Harry