Could Lionel License The Construction And Sale Of A Full Complement Of Super "O" Track To Another Manufacturer?

If I had won the lottery, and sadly I did not, o e project I would consider is commissioning someone to do a limited run of Super O track.  It would have included some wider diameter track, flex track and a limited selection of wide diameter switches.i doubt I would have any trouble selling what I didn't need.  The reason that model would work though was that I wouldn't be doing it as a profit making venture.

Super O being done today is 20 years too late to be a viable commercial venture.  The O market has peaked.  There are not as many outlets to market the track.  The manufacturers who might want to market a realistic line of track have already gotten behind a line of track.

if Super O is going to be resurrected, it would probably be on a Kickstarter model. Someone lines up a manufacturer and does the pricing, then everyone buys in for a certain amount of product, then we sit around waiting for several months until it is made and shipped.  The patents shouldn't be a problem if the original track was simply reverse engineered.  The trademark on the name could be gotten around by calling it something like Heritage Line track or 1957 track.  

I would buy a ton of it.  You know, if i won the lottery, i would tool up and do it!

MELGAR posted:

BIGKID,

I think you're right. Everything can be improved upon. If it were cost-effective, someone would do it. I do think Atlas O is very good. But I would like to see lower tie and rail height, and thinner center rail.

MELGAR

One had to remember that Atlas O track was designed to be compatible with other track systems in order to be accepted by the o gauge community. It is not an easy task to design a track system that is also compatible with

Tubular O and O27 track

Gargraves/ Ross/ Curtis/ Right of Way track

Super O track

This is why the Atlas O track is so high and a bit bulky. However it's still realistic and readily available to many.

At one point MTH was about to "Give up" on it's Scaletrax in the earlier part of this century due to declining sales numbers and lack of compatibility as well as accessibility. If it wasn't for this forum and well as several prominent layouts featured here, Scaletrax may have gone in the way of Lionel's super O and Tru Track.

prrhorseshoecurve posted:

MELGAR posted:

I do think Atlas O is very good. But I would like to see lower tie and rail height, and thinner center rail.

MELGAR

One had to remember that Atlas O track was designed to be compatible with other track systems in order to be accepted by the o gauge community...Tubular O and O27/Gargraves/ Ross/ Curtis/ Right of Way/Super O... This is why the Atlas O track is so high and a bit bulky. However it's still realistic and readily available to many.

Correct. And there are a century's worth of O gauge trains out there with which any new 3-rail track system must be compatible for marketability. One other matter is that the rail height of O gauge track could be reduced with solid rails (like Atlas O) which would also allow smaller and better-looking wheel flanges and narrower wheel treads. MTH offers that option (scale wheels) for O gauge. But any new track offerings are constrained by the wheel and track designs that have been sold for many years. I don't think much will change for 3-rail.

MELGAR

    I'm usually too busy watching valve rods work to notice the track or even the scenery really. Mine grew slowly over years, starting with a loose spray painted terrain I didn't follow. (But I guess I got to empty all the old partially full cans I could and enjoyed the new shelf space ). 

Ok. I picked up only 5, nearest, favorites, 2 identical engines, one has much more run time. The low hour engine is fine. The other, the front roller is ok, the rear is shown. This has done Christmas duty on S-O for ten years; + layout duty on 0-27, + this layout where it usually gets  the S-O right of way. A few thousand hours total?   ..... 2 MPC RI&P chromed Generals ("modeled after" a boiler finish on a World' Fair prototype) and three coach cars from the set. They are basically Western & Alantic coaches. One was very nice, but newer, one had pitting and was dirty, but I don't think it's a soft carbon deposit, but the hard gunk instead. I'll clean it soon to check if it's a cause or result thing. I have a microscope The last picture does not have the gunk or pitting, it has a more wear. 

I think the new looking one was a different alloy..it has that bronze look; the others silver 

As a roller dia. gets smaller the wear happens faster and roller spins faster and oh crap I'm talking to Aerospace engineers about diameter effect at speeds  It's actually not the first time, or the 50th   I heard "St Louis is a great town; up & down. But it's short on elevators."🤔 Exactly that 🙈🙉🙊

This is a Marx, note the point and sharp shadow.

you can see copper in the crevices and it's obviously narrower than tube.....

And on the engine you can see that this was run on tubular last, and for a long time (the slice is widening, good.)

Can the engineers comment on the changes, if any over time in the type of metal(s) used in the rollers by Lionel since the 1950's? The track systems have obviously evolved in the selection of alternative materials for the rails. Given the advances in materials science has the roller technology also evolved? 

Adriatic posted:

    I'm usually too busy watching valve rods work to notice the track or even the scenery really. Mine grew slowly over years, starting with a loose spray painted terrain I didn't follow. (But I guess I got to empty all the old partially full cans I could and enjoyed the new shelf space ). 

Ok. I picked up only 5, nearest, favorites, 2 identical engines, one has much more run time. The low hour engine is fine. The other, the front roller is ok, the rear is shown. This has done Christmas duty on S-O for ten years; + layout duty on 0-27, + this layout where it usually gets  the S-O right of way. A few thousand hours total?   ..... 2 MPC RI&P chromed Generals ("modeled after" a boiler finish on a World' Fair prototype) and three coach cars from the set. They are basically Western & Alantic coaches. One was very nice, but newer, one had pitting and was dirty, but I don't think it's a soft carbon deposit, but the hard gunk instead. I'll clean it soon to check if it's a cause or result thing. I have a microscope The last picture does not have the gunk or pitting, it has a more wear. 

I think the new looking one was a different alloy..it has that bronze look; the others silver 

As a roller dia. gets smaller the wear happens faster and roller spins faster and oh crap I'm talking to Aerospace engineers about diameter effect at speeds  It's actually not the first time, or the 50th   I heard "St Louis is a great town; up & down. But it's short on elevators."🤔 Exactly that 🙈🙉🙊

This is a Marx, note the point and sharp shadow.

you can see copper in the crevices and it's obviously narrower than tube.....

And on the engine you can see that this was run on tubular last, and for a long time (the slice is widening, good.)

 

Well that first Marx is not a steel roller.  Copper shoe so it will wear on anything.

Second lots of evidence of sparking.  Its all jagged and pitted in the wear mark...  So thats expected.

Third is definitely from tubular track.  I have found examples like that before at shows where the wear profile shape clearly matches tubular...  

How often did you clean the track over the 1000hours operation?

I believe the sparking and arcing we see on dirty track is what cuts the rollers.

Manufacturing also uses this to cut steel...  EDM is electrical discharge machining.  Called 'spark machining'...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wik..._discharge_machining

 The erosive effect of electrical discharges was first noted in 1770 by English physicist Joseph Priestley.^[2

Cool stuff

I'm having some problems with the switches on my current permanent layout, so, given the positive reviews of the Atlas track on this thread, I decided to go to my LHS again look at the track, and inquire about availability.  The track is attractive, although the Super "O" is still my favorite.  This hobby shop has an excellent, comprehensive supply of the track and switches, with the exception of the 0-72 switches.  Upon inquiring, I was told that the 0-72 switches have been on back order by this particular hobby shop for more than a year, and availability is uncertain.  The hobby shop indicated that they have no trouble stocking the remainder of the track and switches, and anticipates no problem for the foreseeable future.  He also suggested that I seriously consider GarGraves with Ross switches, since they operate extremely well, and could very well be less expensive.  Since I was planning to replace the track and switches on an isolated section of my layout I was strongly leaning toward the Atlas track for this purpose, rather than using my 1960's era Super "O" track, so I could go with 0-54 switches.  

In the end, I've decided to eliminate 3 switches, and just simplify the route, which I have just accomplished.  That also allows me to keep the same brand of track on the layout, which, in this case, will look better.

In conclusion, the news seems to be largely encouraging regarding the availability of  Atlas track, with the present exception of the 0-72 switches -- at least through this hobby shop.

Early on I decided I wanted a modern layout with mostly newer style Diesels only. I was going to use only O-54 switches on my layout, but due to the shortage a few years ago, ended up with 4 O-72s in the layout on a passing siding. I plan to replace them with O-54 one of these days if I ever get to my planned expansion (with no real plan yet). 

I don't know what all you are running, but O-54 is fine for diesel sized stuff. at least for me it is. They probably exist, but all my fleet is all O-31 to O-54 min curve and no problems so far. Had to skip the Schnabel car. If I ever do have any steamers they will be like a 2-3 truck Shay, Camelback, small switcher or something small and un-ordinary like that, no large sized steamers in the plan.

   In general, I didn't use to need to "clean"any of it. Cars and rollers needed it, not rails.

  I'd wipe it going in and out of the box Nov and March or Aprl. most years. Sometimes with oil on the rag if it looked dry. The amount of black on the rag minimal. 

 It started to become needed when it came off the floor and went to a layout.

  I attibute the majority of this wear to the Super O.  And 50% of it was like new for tree use before it was mine, 50% on the same like new stuff +rough, but cleaned before install. 

The tin can clip another possible cause of initial pitting and more likely imo. Once pitting, the dirty issue becomes almost redundant, arching is going to happen and breakdown increases. The question is how much for each case. I don't think we have enough constants to tell.

  It's also showing wear on the rear rollers more than the front. I'd think the front would be dirtier from first contact and carry more current, more often being the closer path to the source, and would be the more likely to suffer electrcal pitting. 

 Angles suggestthe strike on the can clip would also be worse.  Which leaves us with a rear roller who's metalurgy may be softer than expected, ànd showing wear faster, but that is only a line scale of time, and these rollers show more SuperO wear than tube wear imo. Electrical might be a possibility but I have to inspect my evidence more to be swung to that conclusion.

    How do you tell electrical pitting from mechanical when you know the electrical molocule dirt and household dust vs layout's wear dirt would be so similarly bound?   I likely can't. But I feel I can tie it to my other experience with electrical points and contacting and say "wear" louder than "dirt?".  This is low/medium volt, medium current, indoor use. It would be the worst repetative scenereo of electro-pitting I've ever seen. And I know there are material differences in contact points, but plated steel contact isn't really all that rare either. I need to see fluffy carbon or stacked deposits.

There is a V cut in the bottom of the curved groove.

 Higher, on both sides of the v channel, two bands of shiny flat show from incomplete seating in the V, natural because tubular has a larger dia. than the v channel.  It can't wear where it can't touch.

Bottom line worst case scenario...is about 8 years of very clean mostly SuperO and like new shiney 0-27, and 2 or 3 of dusty S-O with some dusty time on 0-27 that seemed to do little to no wear untill the Super "wear" line was well established. 

   Another comparison, but using the dirt conclusion instead, might be that Super O has to be kept cleaner than any other brand for a roller to remain pit-less . 

Metalurgy and wear seems more attractive as a possible issue now.  

Regardless how, it happens and  it's more of an issue than tube wear because of thrust angles and a sharper channel.  It's still my favorite track but I see a slight issue is all.

Spark cutting. I'm curious how much it has in common with a plasma cutter? Enough power to not need the airpressure to move slag, but "vaporize" it?  Intriging name.

rtr12 posted:

I don't know what all you are running, but O-54 is fine for diesel sized stuff. at least for me it is. They probably exist, but all my fleet is all O-31 to O-54 min curve and no problems so far. Had to skip the Schnabel car. If I ever do have any steamers they will be like a 2-3 truck Shay, Camelback, small switcher or something small and un-ordinary like that, no large sized steamers in the plan.

 

Thanks rtr12.  0-54 would have been fine for this purpose.   I decided not to totally tear up the that part of the layout, and just simplified it.  The problem switches went to sidings which I have now eliminated.  I'll just expand a track that I use to run a Trolley or gang car when I'm running postwar equipment, and that track can actually utilize the bulk of the siding that is no longer connected to the main.

The other layout that I plan to build in an adjacent room would run some O-72 steamers that I have.  The larger, 0-72 curves also frequently improve the appearance of long aluminum car passenger trains, so that will be an added benefit.

My Father-in-Law flew P-51's in WW2.A few years ago my family was taking my daughter to Cambridge where she was taking a summer course( taught by the Chief Justice Rehnquist) . My son and I went down the road to the museum at Duxford. That place had everything including a P51 from Sweden that they were stripping. They had the original test Concorde, Mig 15s and F86 Sabres, you name it. Out back some of the locals were running their tanks. Great place to go, better than the War Museum in London.

BlueComet400 posted:

JohnF, to my knowledge the O Line track is no longer being produced. Regardless of brand, it all came from the K-Line tooling. I have a pile of O-72 switches, some RMT, some K-Line, and some O-Line, and they're all marked K-Line on the bottom. If you look around, you can still find it. 

Juat 2 days ago I was able to order 0-Line switches which are supersnap. They are brand new in an 0-Line box. Trainz seems to have plenty at a good price. I am gradually replacing the original Lionel 022 switches. Ironically, the controller that comes with the switches is exactly like the 022 control. Maybe I will talk to Trainz and find out if the are resupplied on a regular basis. If so, it still is being produced (in China I think).