Current state of the new brass market

Limited market and increasing production costs?

........ there is very little activity.....

Good summation.

Enjoy what's been built and support those who still get them built.

On one hand, a limited market that gets more limited every day.  And on the other, more and more second hand brass seems to be available for purchase. Its a mad mad mad mad world.

I have been back into O-scale 3-rail model railroading for 24 years. I do have a few brass locomotives and cabooses, but most of my buying has been MTH Premier (most by far), Sunset-3rd Rail (plastic diesels), Atlas O Master Line, Weaver (brass), and K-Line (not recently). I find most of those brands satisfactory with respect to functionality and scale accuracy, even with Lionel couplers and large wheel flanges, and haven't felt that it was worthwhile to spend extra for brass. Sunset-3rd Rail has been taking orders for several brass locomotives but prices are higher than I want to pay - even though their Boston & Albany H-10 is from a railroad that I model. So, if I continue buying steamers, they will be die-cast . And there will be fewer of those because MTH is closing.

MELGAR

I have to agree with the original post: Scott Mann and SUNSET/3rdRail is the fuel and the Soul of this hobby !!!  All other importers are either too old, demotivated or no longer care to do anything. It is very sad.

Without Scott and his company, O scale 2 rails would have come to a screeching halt.

Yves

Scott is producing excellent O gauge/scale trains - brass or otherwise. I expect his market share will be increasing.

MELGAR

There are so many used brass engines and cars on the market that there will be a large supply for many, many years to come.  Most of these models have never turned a wheel on a model railroad.  The only problem is that nearly all of them need to be converted to command control.

Clearly the future of the hobby, except for collectors, is command control models with sound.  Lionel is setting the standard for steam effects as seen in their latest Vision Line engines.  People will need to choose between 3-rail with all the sound and steam effects and older brass models that need to be converted.  Most of the people that I know what ready to run today instead of ready to upgrade.  NH Joe

@New Haven Joe posted:

There are so many used brass engines and cars on the market that there will be a large supply for many, many years to come.  Most of these models have never turned a wheel on a model railroad.

And very few are anything of interest to me.  Last new brass I bought came from SMR.  Very, very , very little from any other importer is off interest so my willingness to support them is minimal.

The only problem is that nearly all of them need to be converted to command control.

Pretty sure that "need" is also up to the individual.

It’s too bad weaver is gone. They had some really great looking brass steamers. I’ve been looking for a three rail New Haven I-4 or I-5 for years to no avail. They must be too good looking to sell! 3rd rail has some intriguing models and I look forward to what Scott comes up with next.  

And Im still waiting...waiting for some new PRR steam locomotive to be announced!

@bob2 posted:

Limited market and increasing production costs?

This is the most concise and accurate statement to the brass market currently.

For Sunset it takes about 75 orders to move a brass project forward and not much is moving forward.  Meanwhile, costs continue to go up for labor and materials. 

Insights are easy, few will pay the price - so little output

(I will remind that Protocraft has quite a few brass items you can buy today, with more coming)

I think some of the market for brass (mostly HO and N) has been undermined by increasing quality of plastic models from vendors such as Scale Trains, Kato, Athearn, Atlas, Rapido, Broadway Limited, etc.  These are significantly less expensive than brass and have some of the same advantages of detailing that brass had over injection molded plastic.  Just a guess based upon my own purchases.

Would love to see what Scott can continue to bring to market in brass. Steam production and offerings seem to be less than diesels at this point for 3rd Rail. Not too long ago it was 90% steam and 10% diesels on the site. Very different now.

@Trinity River Bottoms Boomer posted:

A pity Kato never entered the O and S scale market.  The quality and reputation of their products is well known throughout the hobby.

I also question the prices some book dealers are demanding for used railroad books.  A recent check on the Abe Book site was shocking.  I can understand collectors who seek limited editions in mint condition, signed by the author(s) and numbered as well, however, the standard editions which have gone through several printings will outlive the dealers themselves without ever receiving a single sale.  Many have torn and/or dirty pages, ripped or missing dustjackets, etc. which should be sent to the paper recycle bin or donated to Good Will to help support the needy.

Ditto with brass models where the original foam packing has defaced the brass surface which is almost impossible to restore to the original shiny look.  

You funny guy.

Hey Guys ,

                  I'm more of a diesel guy and about 10 years ago tried to help Jimmy Booth from Glacier Park Models market an Alco S1/2  w/o getting enough interest together and more recently tried to get Jack Vansworth from Division Point to scale up his HO Alco RS's to O again interest coming up short . I had hopes that supporting Midwestern Model Works would lead to some 1st generation diesels  come out down the road - not sure anything will come of that either . I like the '' look '' of brass - something about the finish when factory painted that lets you see it's made of metal , but it looks like plastic might have to suffice . All considered I can live with that .

                                                            Bryan

I don't know, I have everything I need in brass that has been made for the N&W and have gone pretty deep into the multiples.

I'm looking for items that go beyond the popular staples that have never had high demand and probably never will.

I'm guessing most others have done the same for other roads as well.

@Trinity River Bottoms Boomer posted:

A pity Kato never entered the O and S scale market.  The quality and reputation of their products is well known throughout the hobby.

Said the exact same thing for years.   Kato revolutionized the N and HO scale market.   They obsoleted the blue box Athearn way of thinking. 

Anyway it seems someone is spending money on overpriced brass online.

I'll pass on my opinion on where the money is coming from but someone seems to have lots of extra spending cash.

Interesting when the bulk of conjectures come from those with no interest in buying.

Gunny

@New Haven Joe posted:

...snip... he only problem is that nearly all of them need to be converted to command control. ...snip... NH Joe

No, the problem (for me, anyway) is removing the command control carp (or at least disconnecting it) from the model.

@PRRMP54 posted:

No, the problem (for me, anyway) is removing the command control carp (or at least disconnecting it) from the model.

Sounds pretty fishy to me!

Gunny

@GG1 4877 posted:

For Sunset it takes about 75 orders to move a brass project forward and not much is moving forward.  Meanwhile, costs continue to go up for labor and materials.

Not much moving forward at a 75 order threshold is something to really give thought to all around.

^  For GPM to move forward with Boo-Rim on the Alco S-1 it was 75 pieces and Jack was looking at only 40 pieces of the Alco RS-2/3 and the demand wasn't there . I think that says it all .

@Bryan D. posted:

^  For GPM to move forward with Boo-Rim on the Alco S-1 it was 75 pieces and Jack was looking at only 40 pieces of the Alco RS-2/3 and the demand wasn't there . I think that says it all .

Says quite a lot.  Either the demand was not there for the choices made and/or it was deemed too expensive.

^ I believe it was cost - there were a few guys where cost wasn't an impediment , but just couldn't make it work .

Our hobby is pretty unpredictable as to what would be viable to produce. Some unique locomotives are iconic, so even people who don't model the road would buy one (AC-12 Cab Forward, S2 turbine, UP Challenger, and UP Big Boy immediately come to mind). Others are obscure one-offs from single roads that aren't as popular (CNW H1 Northern, and yes I bought one).

To make a run in brass, the builder/importer need enough reservations to make the project worthwhile. The "symbiosis" of 3-rail numbers with 2-rail demand for fidelity in the 1990's-early 2000's allowed several models to be produced at lower costs due to economies of scale (building 300 models instead of only 30 models -- usually in a 85-90% 3-rail and 10-15% 2-rail). Unfortunately, with the economy, material/labor cost increases and our dwindling customer numbers, it becomes difficult to produce some of these projects because the numbers aren't there.

Another factor that has cut into brass is the improved quality of die cast and plastic models. Atlas rolling stock approaches brass in detail, but for $80/car instead of $250/car.

@SANTIAGOP23 posted:

Would love to see what Scott can continue to bring to market in brass. Steam production and offerings seem to be less than diesels at this point for 3rd Rail. Not too long ago it was 90% steam and 10% diesels on the site. Very different now.

Santiago,

Maybe a streamlined New Haven 4-6-4 or a streamlined Southern 4-6-2 will be offered one day.

@Trinity River Bottoms Boomer posted:

Despite the $$$ prices, Raisin River continues to offer beautifully quality built S scale brass steam locomotives which are listed on their web site updated to 1-30-2021!!!  Previous models imported by RR are also on their web site listed as Past Projects and probably available from dealers and private owners as well.

Re: Sn3.  P-B-L has and continues to expand their line of fine brass imported locomotives as well.

True, the market has changed dramatically in recent times and the trend is not likely to improve anytime soon.  I'm a Fall Guy.  I prefer to invest my $$$ (what little of it is still around today) in brass when health will permit me to construct a modest S scale layout in my basement.  I haven't ruled out Railmaster Export (New Zealand) white metal kits either though.  Plastic?  The excellent models made by American Models, SHS, and x-SHS by MTH* may still be considered of course.

I've refound my love for Southern Pacific and Union Pacific, however, I don't need a Daylight 4-8-4 or Big Boy on my proposed roster of locomotives.  I can be just as pleased with an SP 0-6-0 switching a few selected industries as the next guy who has the $$$ and space to run long freights behind a 4-8-8-4.  Also, I'm from the old school, the one that burned down a few years ago, and thank you, I don't want any ultra-modern sensitive high tech crap that may spend more time in the shop than on the layout!

The onetime slogan that graced Model Railroader claimed that Model Railroading is Fun.  It still is as long as I can Play Train and not suffer several mild heart attacks every time a model malfunctions.  Too many modelers have, and continue to, learn the hard way after dumping X number of $$$ into a new model that has parts laying at the bottom of the box that left the builder on and not off the locomotive they just unpacked!

The decision is left up to the individual of course what he or she wants.  I'm now retired.  I was tired yesterday and am retired today.  The name of my game is FUN and I plan to enjoy the hobby as long as the Good Lord keeps me alive.  Why cuss when you can call gus, or better yet, just play train like Lionel intended kids (both young and old) to do from the Get Go?

Joe

* MTH has sold their S and HO line to a new owner.  Details can be found elsewhere here on the OGR Forum.

A Final Note: If I had the space, I'd love to own a few of the 3rd Rail O scale model of the SP Krauss-Maffei Diesel-Hydralics.  Indeed, they are Clean Machines!  Better yet, in S scale brass.  Of course it'll never happen, but that's life, right?

Re: The Krauss Maffei.

A group is releasing the greatest diesel ever built, the Milwaukee SDL39 in O Scale Brass. Another group in releasing the model in HO including all the paint that they went through from Milwaukee, Soo, Wisconsin Central, and Fepasa in Chile.

@CBQer posted:

...snip...  Fepasa in Chile.

Check out the window guards on the Chilean unit!

A “group?”  “ Releasing? “  That means production is complete?  So why the secrecy - to keep the total number of customers under control?

Looks like Scale Trains in HO and Central Loco Works in O.

@MELGAR posted:

Scott is producing excellent O gauge/scale trains - brass or otherwise. I expect his market share will be increasing.

MELGAR

I agree especially when no one else is willing to introduce something unique and new to o scale/o gauge!

River Raisin Models is to S scale what Pat O'Boyle and Pacific Limited was to O scale.

Too bad Pat's life was cut short.   He gave us a wonderful amount of accurate scale models.

River Raisin must be doing something right since their pricey but well detailed locos and cars sell.

Anyway, O scale has a bright spot and that's Sunset/3rd rail.   They keep the 2 rail side alive.

@bob2 posted:

A “group?”  “ Releasing? “  That means production is complete?  So why the secrecy - to keep the total number of customers under control?

Yes, odd.  Seems a dubious sales strategy..........

@Rule292 posted:

Anyway, O scale has a bright spot and that's Sunset/3rd rail.   They keep the 2 rail side alive.

Yes, but rapidly becoming the only bright spot that still has trouble reaching production thresholds on some proposed projects.

Great thread !!!

At our last Strasburg O scale zoom meeting Lou Houlemarde- Central Loco Works- gave us a update on the Baldwin 6-6-2500 and RT-624  Transfer loco project as well as the Milwaukee SDl-39 and ARR diesel truck project. As a part of the PRR RT-624 project, Lou has brought names like Russ Briggs and Glenn Guerra to make this loco a reality- and he is only doing 12 units !!!! I and 11 other lucky SPF's will have a very unique loco and built in the USA by USA craftsmen at a very fair price in terms of today's brass at $1,500.00. The SDL-39 project-another unique loco built for Milwaukee Road and Dick Donaway can fill in the blanks on that project.

Rich is working on the Mather car project for past 3/5 years.

There are other projects that are being done but prefer those involved to speak out if so inclined.

There is a group of us working on a Baldwin baby face diesels and PRR silverliners project- made in USA !!!

Great time to be in 2 Rail O Scale !!!!

John P. Dunn Sr Scale2Rail Promotions

Strasburg 04-17-2021

Where do I find information about central locomotive works’ offerings? Do they have a website?

@SANTIAGOP23 posted:

Where do I find information about central locomotive works’ offerings?

Pretty sure that the CLW projects were announced on this very forum.

But, all of these products appear to really be almost boutique level products as they are being produced in very limited numbers.