DCS App Update

RJR posted:

Don't forget, MTH-R&D, there are still a few of us who want to run trains, rather than focus on gadgets.*   On the other hand, there are some who find gadgets attractive so you have to satisfy [i.e., sell to] them also.

 

*(Stated otherwise, don't discontinue the remote)

Happy New Year.

Gadgets, ehhh?

Wasn't the handheld remote once in the realm of "Gadgets?"

I can picture the arguments now - same as today - "I'll never give up on my handles"

You guys act like the current state of technology has been passed down, unchanged, from generation to generation like some guarded secret!

Lionel was working on the remote control in the 1960s!

About freakin' time I say!!!

In fact - these train manufacturers are WAY behind the curve! This is decades old tech...!

MTH RD posted:

Bluetooth....Hmmmm...Why not a single app that runs all modern O ga trains?  The Bluetooth radio is just sitting there in the device, after all. 

We think of many, many, things but have to weigh which are commercially feasible.

Hi MTH Rd

Bluetooth is a big Hmmmmmmmmmm / Your number one competitor is now selling Bluetooth in every Legacy Locomotive they sell.

The hobby shop advisors in my area are selling these over your system.  Bring home the locomotive to your train room and place a Lionel Legacy Locomotive on any track system and it will run with no Legacy Base or MTH - TIU Base.

I do not have a crystal  ball, but 2018 is going to be a big battle ground for sales.

Gary: MTH • Wi-Fi End User from Michigan

trainroomgary posted:

MTH RD posted:

Bluetooth....Hmmmm...Why not a single app that runs all modern O ga trains?  The Bluetooth radio is just sitting there in the device, after all. 

We think of many, many, things but have to weigh which are commercially feasible.

Hi MTH Rd

Bluetooth is a big Hmmmmmmmmmm / Your number one competitor is now selling Bluetooth in every Legacy Locomotive they sell.

The hobby shop advisors in my area are selling these over your system.  Bring home the locomotive to your train room and place a Lionel Legacy Locomotive on any track system and it will run with no Legacy Base or MTH - TIU Base.

I do not have a crystal  ball, but 2018 is going to be a big battle ground for sales.

Gary: MTH • Wi-Fi End User from Michigan

 

Could just be because "Bluetooth" is enjoying some prime time as a marketing slogan...much like when CDs came out and suddenly everything was "Digital"

Range is always going to be an issue with Bluetooth (speaking of Lionel's implementation) and I've seen a few reports that obstructions might cause reception issues.

I might be going out on a limb - but I suspect LIONEL has already maxed out what they can do with Bluetooth...Low Energy BT is slow and has limited bandwidth.

For sure there are new things happening in BT - but how fast those come to market is probably a problem for product development...especially when you have to pave the way.

Wi-fi has WAY more possibilities...fast and can move more data - and has bigger development base...lots of stuff has "already been done."

In the audio world - for professional applications - its all wifi - for reliability and range.

The only place we're seeing BlueTooth control systems in pro-audio is in portable field recorders...where lower power consumption is the main benefit.

MTH RD posted:

  "Alexa, start my trains!"  Or, why not run someone else's trains over the web?  Camera's could provide streaming video on your tablet with an inset of app.  Why not run a new engine on our Showroom layout and drive it past close up cameras to confirm your purchase decision?  

 

Haha - funny you mentioned this. I put a wireless camera in a train and went downstairs to my daughter's playroom. Ran trains using the app, while watching on her big screen TV. It was so fun until my connection broke, and the train went out of control. The last thing I saw was static on the screen. The last thing I heard was a big crash onto the wood floor above my head. Yikes.

GregR posted:

MTH RD posted:

  "Alexa, start my trains!"  Or, why not run someone else's trains over the web?  Camera's could provide streaming video on your tablet with an inset of app.  Why not run a new engine on our Showroom layout and drive it past close up cameras to confirm your purchase decision?  

 

Haha - funny you mentioned this. I put a wireless camera in a train and went downstairs to my daughter's playroom. Ran trains using the app, while watching on her big screen TV. It was so fun until my connection broke, and the train went out of control. The last thing I saw was static on the screen. The last thing I heard was a big crash onto the wood floor above my head. Yikes.

That really should NOT happen...if the connection fails - the train should obey the last given command - not fly wildly out of control.

Im fond of mentioning pro-audio analogies - If I'm doing sound for a live show, and a controller crashes - or runs out of battery power - the mixer will stay in it's last working state...it HAS to!!! I couldn't have every channel hitting max and blowing up the system and everyone's ears!

Something to fix, MTH!

Question based Bluetooth discussion within hs thread.  Will Bluetooth be able operate switches, accessories and track power?  Sounds like control modules of some sort still necessary.  I am building a new layout and will be relying on DCS for these applications.

Bob Golfs posted:

Question based Bluetooth discussion within hs thread.  Will Bluetooth be able operate switches, accessories and track power?  Sounds like control modules of some sort still necessary.  I am building a new layout and will be relying on DCS for these applications.

HI Bob:

I have Lionel Bluetooth on my layout and MTH DCS Wi-Fi

I prefer the MTH DCS Wi-Fi because it does more, on page one of this thread, I posted a YT video of how I use the MTH Premium App on my layout. If you have time take a look. The Lionel Bluetooth only gives you the basic controls to run a Legacy Locomotive Such as Horn/Whistle, Couplers, Picture of the loco you are running, bell sounds, several crew talks, smoke, speed control, momentum, and individual sound controls.

With MTH Wi-Fi you get it all, locomotive and all accessories controls. (Soft Keys) Too much to mention here.

Gary: Hope this helps. MTH • DCS Wi-Fi user from Michigan 

trainroomgary posted:

MTH RD posted:

Bluetooth....Hmmmm...Why not a single app that runs all modern O ga trains?  The Bluetooth radio is just sitting there in the device, after all. 

We think of many, many, things but have to weigh which are commercially feasible.

Hi MTH Rd

Bluetooth is a big Hmmmmmmmmmm / Your number one competitor is now selling Bluetooth in every Legacy Locomotive they sell.

The hobby shop advisors in my area are selling these over your system.  Bring home the locomotive to your train room and place a Lionel Legacy Locomotive on any track system and it will run with no Legacy Base or MTH - TIU Base.

I do not have a crystal  ball, but 2018 is going to be a big battle ground for sales.

Gary: MTH • Wi-Fi End User from Michigan

 

Keep in Mind that Lionel had to select a new wireless control protocol based on what technology already exists in smart phones and tablet. The choices are pretty limited, you can use Bluetooth or WiFi, that's it.

Implementing WiFi would have required a device similar to the WIU as installing WiFi on every locomotive and setting up the direct communication to a home network or smart device would be rather complex. Really Bluetooth was the only choice.

Lionel has it's own technical hurdles with Bluetooth to overcome yet, and they are at the mercy of the capabilities that Bluetooth wireless standards dictate to them.  Bluetooth is a Master / Slave relationship, or one to many. Each engine can only have one device control it.

Beings that MTH opted to only use WiFi to communicate to dedicated piece of hardware that they designed and not directly to the trains themselves, this leaves opens more flexibility to how they can use the wireless signal. One could have 1000's of phones or tablets connected to many WIU's and each could control features simultaneously on the same engine.

Bluetooth is as much of a communication protocol as it is a marketing scheme. How many times do young-ins stop to look a device simply because it has the Bluetooth Logo on the box. While Lionel has implemented Bluetooth in a useful manor, I have seen many products that have uselessly integrated Bluetooth to simply catch your attention and maybe you'll buy something. Good examples, a Bluetooth enabled toothbrush, or Bluetooth diapers that send alerts to your phone that let you know when your toddler has done their "business". Bluetooth was added to these things simply to sell a product with a worthless wireless feature.

Bob Golfs posted:

Question based Bluetooth discussion within hs thread.  Will Bluetooth be able operate switches, accessories and track power?  Sounds like control modules of some sort still necessary.  I am building a new layout and will be relying on DCS for these applications.

Technically - there's no reason Bluetooth can't operate switches.

Wi-fi or BlueTooth - these are just small packets of info - "more or less" or "on and off"

But - pretty sure Lionel has already gone to wi-fi as far as layout control goes...so - not sure where they are heading with BlueTooth.

H1000 posted:

trainroomgary posted:

MTH RD posted:

Bluetooth....Hmmmm...Why not a single app that runs all modern O ga trains?  The Bluetooth radio is just sitting there in the device, after all. 

We think of many, many, things but have to weigh which are commercially feasible.

Hi MTH Rd

Bluetooth is a big Hmmmmmmmmmm / Your number one competitor is now selling Bluetooth in every Legacy Locomotive they sell.

The hobby shop advisors in my area are selling these over your system.  Bring home the locomotive to your train room and place a Lionel Legacy Locomotive on any track system and it will run with no Legacy Base or MTH - TIU Base.

I do not have a crystal  ball, but 2018 is going to be a big battle ground for sales.

Gary: MTH • Wi-Fi End User from Michigan

 

Beings that MTH opted to only use WiFi to communicate to dedicated piece of hardware that they designed and not directly to the trains themselves, this leaves opens more flexibility to how they can use the wireless signal. One could have 1000's of phones or tablets connected to many WIU's and each could control features simultaneously on the same engine.

I think this might be the challenge for MTH - I'm under the impression that PS2/3 locos have limited "talk back" ability - i.e  they can only tell the system so much about the train. In short - they are better at receiving orders than giving them.

That's one of the things I was wondering about when I asked about syncing DCS controllers. Pretty clear they don't page the loco for the last state.

On an aside - Don't these Lionel BT locos run conventional also? - so just run them conventional under DCS...would it be different than BT control?

Thanks for the response. I am satisfied with dcs and WiFi.

Under APP VERSION my Samsung tablet has v3.0.2, build 48.  My I Phone has v3.0.2  what does that mean?

clinchfield bill posted:

Under APP VERSION my Samsung tablet has v3.0.2, build 48.  My I Phone has v3.0.2  what does that mean?

You have the latest version of the app for both devices.

clinchfield bill posted:

Under APP VERSION my Samsung tablet has v3.0.2, build 48.  My I Phone has v3.0.2  what does that mean?

Means you are running the latest version on both devices.

Android just reports a slightly more detailed version info...not sure there is equivalent info for I-device - or if its just not displayed.

Thanks to both of you for clearing that up greatly appreciated.

RJR posted:

Don't forget, MTH-R&D, there are still a few of us who want to run trains, rather than focus on gadgets.*   On the other hand, there are some who find gadgets attractive so you have to satisfy [i.e., sell to] them also.

 

*(Stated otherwise, don't discontinue the remote)

Happy New Year.

Don't worry Robert.  We've never lost sight of that.  Our entire approach is to make the control aspects as simple and intuitive as possible so the focus and enjoyment is running trains.  If you're a gadget guy and that is your interest, just go grab a DCC system and have fun.  ;-}

GregR posted:

@MTH RD

I'll be so very happy when the day arrives when this issue is fixed. 

Here's the thing. There are a lot of guys, like me, with hundreds of Lionel Legacy, TMCC and conventional engines out there. I only recently purchased two MTH locos, after 40 years in the hobby.

I want to purchase more MTH products, but to move forward, I need a system that can support the trains that I've already invested in. Otherwise, I'll just revert back to my CAB-2 and sidetrack the idea of buying more MTH. Therefore, your app is a very important tool to drive sales moving forward.

But it has to work. That's why I get so upset with app issues like that wacky latency or lag issue which causes variable voltage to lurch out of control. If you fixed that, I might even stop complaining about how the TIU produces variable voltage using an unseemingly sharp waveform that jackhammers E-units apart. (although I'd love to see a smooth sine wave if possible). Then there's the diesel RPM's that don't work....

I know you'll get it all worked out eventually, and appreciate your hard work coding these items on several platforms simultaneously. It can't be easy.

Thanks again for your dedication to this excellent app.

Sorry for the delayed response.  I fully understand and agree with your position.  I too believe there are opportunities for MTH and Lionel by enhancing and expanding Legacy/TMCC support in the Wi-Fi DCS system.  We're on it.  

Let me briefly address the specific issues you've raised.  I consider the diesel rev issue a given.  We will get that straightened out.  I still need to understand why my Legacy diesel revs don't follow speed using the cab 2 but, once we get there, the issue is resolved.  With regard to the shark-fin wave form, this is true of pretty much any AC controllers not accompanied by an iron and copper transformer.  While we cannot change physics or the existing TIU, any new device we design that varies AC power will likely put out a 60Hz sine wave.  It certainly can be done.  After all, our Z4K puts out a beautiful sine wave and it's a generated signal.  In other words, we know how.  It's just expensive from a product standpoint.  It becomes an issue of how much cost burden do we apply to new products in support of "legacy" (as in older designs) engines built 50 years ago, or more.  Finally, we're aware of the UI issues with variable voltage in the app.  There are several latency issues converging.  We certainly can, and will, improve it.  

So, thanks for the kudos on the app.  We appreciate it.  I'll pass your comments along to the guys directly responsible for writing it.  And, hang in there.  As I've said, I think everyone that runs both MTH and Lionel products will be benefit further from our efforts going forward.  

And, thank you for the candid feedback.  It is what we need to provide context to our efforts.

MTH RD posted:

GregR posted:

@MTH RD

I'll be so very happy when the day arrives when this issue is fixed. 

Here's the thing. There are a lot of guys, like me, with hundreds of Lionel Legacy, TMCC and conventional engines out there. I only recently purchased two MTH locos, after 40 years in the hobby.

I want to purchase more MTH products, but to move forward, I need a system that can support the trains that I've already invested in. Otherwise, I'll just revert back to my CAB-2 and sidetrack the idea of buying more MTH. Therefore, your app is a very important tool to drive sales moving forward.

But it has to work. That's why I get so upset with app issues like that wacky latency or lag issue which causes variable voltage to lurch out of control. If you fixed that, I might even stop complaining about how the TIU produces variable voltage using an unseemingly sharp waveform that jackhammers E-units apart. (although I'd love to see a smooth sine wave if possible). Then there's the diesel RPM's that don't work....

I know you'll get it all worked out eventually, and appreciate your hard work coding these items on several platforms simultaneously. It can't be easy.

Thanks again for your dedication to this excellent app.

Sorry for the delayed response.  I fully understand and agree with your position.  I too believe there are opportunities for MTH and Lionel by enhancing and expanding Legacy/TMCC support in the Wi-Fi DCS system.  We're on it.  

Let me briefly address the specific issues you've raised.  I consider the diesel rev issue a given.  We will get that straightened out.  I still need to understand why my Legacy diesel revs don't follow speed using the cab 2 but, once we get there, the issue is resolved.  With regard to the shark-fin wave form, this is true of pretty much any AC controllers not accompanied by an iron and copper transformer.  While we cannot change physics or the existing TIU, any new device we design that varies AC power will likely put out a 60Hz sine wave.  It certainly can be done.  After all, our Z4K puts out a beautiful sine wave and it's a generated signal.  In other words, we know how.  It's just expensive from a product standpoint.  It becomes an issue of how much cost burden do we apply to new products in support of "legacy" (as in older designs) engines built 50 years ago, or more.  Finally, we're aware of the UI issues with variable voltage in the app.  There are several latency issues converging.  We certainly can, and will, improve it.  

So, thanks for the kudos on the app.  We appreciate it.  I'll pass your comments along to the guys directly responsible for writing it.  And, hang in there.  As I've said, I think everyone that runs both MTH and Lionel products will be benefit further from our efforts going forward.  

And, thank you for the candid feedback.  It is what we need to provide context to our efforts.

 

@MTH RD

Thanks for your reply. Here's something that may be a clue: Diesel RPM's don't necessarily ramp with speed. They only seem to auto-ramp with changes in the rate of acceleration. I have noticed when I increase speed linearly by turning the CAB-2 knob at constant rotational rate, there are no changes to RPM's. But, if I turn the knob with a sudden acceleration, it will ramp up. Also, if  the train brake is set to an aggressive position, you'll also get RPM ramping that simulates the laboring effects. Maybe you're being too gentle with your Legacy loco? Get on the gas pedal and work it harder

GregR posted:

MTH RD posted:

GregR posted:

@MTH RD

I'll be so very happy when the day arrives when this issue is fixed. 

Here's the thing. There are a lot of guys, like me, with hundreds of Lionel Legacy, TMCC and conventional engines out there. I only recently purchased two MTH locos, after 40 years in the hobby.

I want to purchase more MTH products, but to move forward, I need a system that can support the trains that I've already invested in. Otherwise, I'll just revert back to my CAB-2 and sidetrack the idea of buying more MTH. Therefore, your app is a very important tool to drive sales moving forward.

But it has to work. That's why I get so upset with app issues like that wacky latency or lag issue which causes variable voltage to lurch out of control. If you fixed that, I might even stop complaining about how the TIU produces variable voltage using an unseemingly sharp waveform that jackhammers E-units apart. (although I'd love to see a smooth sine wave if possible). Then there's the diesel RPM's that don't work....

I know you'll get it all worked out eventually, and appreciate your hard work coding these items on several platforms simultaneously. It can't be easy.

Thanks again for your dedication to this excellent app.

Sorry for the delayed response.  I fully understand and agree with your position.  I too believe there are opportunities for MTH and Lionel by enhancing and expanding Legacy/TMCC support in the Wi-Fi DCS system.  We're on it.  

Let me briefly address the specific issues you've raised.  I consider the diesel rev issue a given.  We will get that straightened out.  I still need to understand why my Legacy diesel revs don't follow speed using the cab 2 but, once we get there, the issue is resolved.  With regard to the shark-fin wave form, this is true of pretty much any AC controllers not accompanied by an iron and copper transformer.  While we cannot change physics or the existing TIU, any new device we design that varies AC power will likely put out a 60Hz sine wave.  It certainly can be done.  After all, our Z4K puts out a beautiful sine wave and it's a generated signal.  In other words, we know how.  It's just expensive from a product standpoint.  It becomes an issue of how much cost burden do we apply to new products in support of "legacy" (as in older designs) engines built 50 years ago, or more.  Finally, we're aware of the UI issues with variable voltage in the app.  There are several latency issues converging.  We certainly can, and will, improve it.  

So, thanks for the kudos on the app.  We appreciate it.  I'll pass your comments along to the guys directly responsible for writing it.  And, hang in there.  As I've said, I think everyone that runs both MTH and Lionel products will be benefit further from our efforts going forward.  

And, thank you for the candid feedback.  It is what we need to provide context to our efforts.

 

@MTH RD

Thanks for your reply. Here's something that may be a clue: Diesel RPM's don't necessarily ramp with speed. They only seem to auto-ramp with changes in the rate of acceleration. I have noticed when I increase speed linearly by turning the CAB-2 knob at constant rotational rate, there are no changes to RPM's. But, if I turn the knob with a sudden acceleration, it will ramp up. Also, if  the train brake is set to an aggressive position, you'll also get RPM ramping that simulates the laboring effects. Maybe you're being too gentle with your Legacy loco? Get on the gas pedal and work it harder

Thanks for the insight.  I'll give 'er h#!! and see what happens.

@MTH RD

Sorry to add another glitch to your list. Momentum speed dial bug. Goes into slow motion between approximately the 11 am and 12 pm position on the clock. Affects DCS speed dial between 50 to 60, TMCC32 between 12 and 16, and Legacy between 80 to 100.

OK, that's a new one.  We'll check it out and get it on the list.  Thanks!

GregR posted:

@MTH RD

Sorry to add another glitch to your list. Momentum speed dial bug. Goes into slow motion between approximately the 11 am and 12 pm position on the clock. Affects DCS speed dial between 50 to 60, TMCC32 between 12 and 16, and Legacy between 80 to 100.

iOS or Android?  Both?

Obviously to attain scale acceleration.😀

MTH RD posted:

GregR posted:

@MTH RD

Sorry to add another glitch to your list. Momentum speed dial bug. Goes into slow motion between approximately the 11 am and 12 pm position on the clock. Affects DCS speed dial between 50 to 60, TMCC32 between 12 and 16, and Legacy between 80 to 100.

iOS or Android?  Both?

iOS.  I do not know if it affects Android