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Hi all,

 

From time to time the topic of adding DCS to modular layouts comes up on the forum.  More often than not clubs have difficulty getting DCS to operate well.  The trouble is mostly caused by the wiring practices instituted by most clubs.  The standards were developed to ensure good electrical continuity and are usually quite successful.  Unfortunately, the same techniques degrade high frequency communications.  Over the years I have worked with several modular groups to improve their DCS operations.  Here's a synopsis of what we have learned.

 

THE PROBLEM
Most club standards involve some variation of a power buss daisy chained from one module to the next with one or more feeder sets (one wire per rail) on each module.   The modules are also connected by the track itself.  The buss is often connected into a complete circular path around the entire layout.  All three of these features are problematic for DCS.  Each connector between modules causes some portion of the signal to reflect back on itself.  Go through too many connectors and there isn't enough signal for the engines to detect.  Multiple feeder wires on the same length of track create looped paths that the DCS signal can travel for infinity.  Looped signals can cause an engine to receive a command more than once or obliterate signal altogether.  Looped paths are also created between modules via the track connection.  Having the buss connected all the way around the layout creates the ultimate signal loop.
 
THE SOLUTIONS
1) Break the buss into groups of modules.  The number of modules that each TIU can handle varies depending on your club's track configuration, wiring standards, and quality of construction.  In the case of the Midwest Hi-Railers we found one TIU could handle up to about 12 of their modules with three mainlines and sidings.  Each mainline gets powered by a separate TIU channel.
 
2) Locate the TIU near its group of modules.  The chances of the DCS signal being degraded by reflections greatly increases when the total wire length from the TIU output to the track exceeds 16 feet.  To get the most coverage out of each TIU they should be wired into the modules as close to the buss as possible.  This has the added benefit of also putting the TIU's radio receiver near the controlled track.  In public buildings with lots of wireless interference this can help a lot with remote/TIU communications.  Power supply transformers can be located near each TIU or in one central location.  Either way, the length of wire between the transformer(s) and TIU inputs has no effect on the DCS signal.
 
3) Isolate the center rail between modules.  Some clubs use bridge track sections between modules.  Others run the track to the edge and use pins to connect the sections.  Whatever method your club uses, you should insulate the center rail(s) at each module.  This will eliminate many if not all circular wiring paths.
 
4) Limit the feeders to one set per track per module.  If your club uses more than one set of feeder wires on each module this creates a circular path for the DCS signal on each module.  By limiting the feeders to one set per track per module in addition to insulation between modules you ensure that the DCS signal will have only one path from the TIU to the engine at any one time.  Looped paths will still occur through the locomotive's internal wiring or through lighted cars that momentarily jump power between sections.  However, these loops occur at or near the locomotive.  The signal will be detected before it can degrade in the loop.
 
5) Add Deats filters.  The signal filters developed by the son of forumite Susan Deats have proven highly effective at reducing interference with the DCS signal on buss wired layouts.  You can find information about the filters, how to make them yourself, or purchase them HERE.  Ideally, one filter should be installed on each TIU output and one at the farthest point from the TIU.  One way to achieve this configuration is to make a connector with a filter(s) that plugs into the buss at each end of a modular group.  This makes it easy to install the filters at the farthest point from the TIU regardless of the modular configuration.
 
6) Change your remote and TIU settings.  Because you will likely be using more than one TIU you will need to program each TIU into each remote.  All TIU's will need to be set to "super mode" in each remote (MENU / SYSTEM / TIU SETUP / SUPER TIU).  To maximizes the responsiveness of the remote you should also turn off remote messages (MENU / SYSTEM / REMOTE SETUP / REMOTE MESSAGES) and place the remote(s) in "speed mode" (MENU / SYSTEM / REMOTE SETUP / OPERATING MODE).
 
These next two obviously can't be applied in all circumstances.  You can get good operation without them, but they do make things easier.
 
7) Use Rev. L TIU's when possible.  The Rev. L TIU has stronger DCS signal generators than earlier revisions.  If they are available to your club, you will get better results with Rev. L's.
 
8) Run PS3 engines when possible.  PS3 engines have superior signal processors compared to PS2's.  This allows them to accurately interpret a weaker DCS signal that has been greatly degraded.  You will get more reliable operations with PS3.
 
I have posted these recommendations on the REFERENCE MATERIALS sticky thread for future reference.  If you questions or would like to suggest other ideas please post them here.
Last edited by Dave Hikel
Original Post

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Dave this is the problem we're/our club is having on our mobile O Gauge layout. We are pinned between modules, as well as Daisy Chain from module to module.

Our plan of attack is to clean all of the track again, recheck all connections, check resistance thru the Daisy Chain, check on the Tiu to see exactly what we have. Susan gave me an answer, along with some pictures of "How To's" on building/installing the filters.

I want to thank you for your help,as well as this posting. I do know that the Lionel TMCC System is a lot more forgiving, and isn't as temper mental as MTH Electronics are.

We have a modular layout that pretty much matches your description, and we pretty much have the issues you describe.

 

A couple of questions.

 

1. Do you recommend the Deats filters for Rev. L TIU versions?

 

2. If you have a module with more than one drop, (our 8 foot sections have two), is it sufficient to cut the center rail between the two drops?

 

3. At many venues, it's not possible to run in Super TIU Mode, as there are other DCS clubs in the same location, how do you deal with that issue?  Is it possible to have more than one layout running in Super TIU Mode with no conflicts?

 

 

 

Well, I have the one base covered.  Given our issues with the DCS signal, I have a siding that serves as a programming track.  I start any new DCS locomotive out on that track and tether to a separate TIU that is just associated with that track. It has the same TIU # as the main TIU.

 

We follow this sequence.

  1. Power up the remote.
  2. Plug in the tether to the remote.
  3. Power up the programming track and the associated TIU.
  4. Add the locomotive to the remote.
  5. Drive the locomotive out onto the mainline.
  6. Once the locomotive is out on the mainline, power down the siding and TIU.
  7. Unplug the tether and the remote is then communicating with the main TIU to control the locomotive.

Your scenario may work, but I suspect I'll have difficulty explaining it to the other folks!   In the couple cases I've run across this, it's hard enough to agree on a set of TIU numbers.  Folks are very reluctant to reset their remotes, though I do it for the ones we use at shows because it does simplify things.

 

We only have one TIU for the mainline and an old original one (with a channel dead) that I use just to handle the little programming track.  I sense that we'll have to have at least another TIU to properly solve this problem, not to mention the wiring changes.

Fort Pitt Hi-Railer's in general assign (10) numbers per individual.  All engines are pre-entered before a train meet.  No engines are to be entered during a meet.  Unfortunately that rarely happens.  There is one master remote, downloaded to a laptop computer.  All other remotes are cloned from the master remote via the lap top computer and available MTH software.   This works for awhile, until the number of un-entered locomotives/units corrupts the number system.  Then we start all over again with the (10) number system, Master remote, lap top, and cloned remotes, AGAIN.  

Always interesting, trying to get all on the same page.  

 

Recently we have been leaving the low numbers  1 through 10 open, which helps, some.

Last edited by Mike CT
Originally Posted by gunrunnerjohn:

We are not to the point where we can get that coordinated with our entries.

I only have a few MTH units and volunteered to take numbers 95 through 99 just to stay out of the mix.  A couple of club members have 15 numbers.  We have a printed list that helps.   Consist numbers also seemed to complicate things.  Great thing is we all seem to work well together, this being a relatively small problem. IMO. Mike

Last edited by Mike CT
Originally Posted by gunrunnerjohn:

Your scenario may work, but I suspect I'll have difficulty explaining it to the other folks!  

Hence the Larry, Mo, and Curly reference!  I know getting everyone on the same page is often a challenge within a single club, let alone between different clubs.  The DCC guys have similar issues when two or more clubs are running the same brand of DCC system.

 

The National Capital Trackers are one club that has had great success with DCS after getting everyone together and coordinating their efforts.  I was fortunate enough to go see the NCT setup in the Black Hall at this last York.  A couple members gave me an excellent tour of their recent changes.  Many of their problems with DCS, TMCC/Legacy, and conventional running went away after they committed to re-wiring ALL of their modules.  They contracted with a wire shop to make a batch of standardized wire harnesses and required all members to install the harness on their modules.  The harness was well though out and solved some of the problems of running DCS on a buss. For instance, each mainline has its own common wire, instead of a single common wire for all three mains.  But they also gained a great deal of basic electrical reliability across the board by getting rid of worn out connectors that were introducing resistance in the buss.  Most clubs probably won't go as far as the Trackers, but they're a good example of what us possible when a group of guys set their minds to the same goal.

Powerpoles are good for some unattainable amount of cycles (10,000?), and yes, separate commons made a huge difference. Our resident electrical engineer figured out that to use a single common return with 3 mainlines, it needed to be a 6AWG common. Using a 12 AWG for each track is far more economical (and easier to fit in an available connector). 

In the NCT August business meeting a comment was made by Herr Kesselschmied1 that the mood inside the layout has greatly improved since the switch to the new harness. Many other members noted the same as well. The Greenberg show that the club does at the Dulles Expo Center was always fraught with problems, mostly related to DCS but others as well, this time it went extremely well. I certainly believe it was worth the time, effort, research, engineering, frustration, commitment and every dollar spent. Have we completely solved all of the issues for both DCS & TMCC/Legacy, I don’t know. Would it work for all modular clubs/layouts, I believe it to be an excellent foundation , but your mileage or track signal may vary.

 

Steve

 

Last edited by L & N

Dave,

It sounds to me like any interface between wire and a device is going to cause signal degradation, correct? If the is the case, would it make sense to eliminate the traditional barrier strip that is installed at each end of a module?

 Also what role do the connectors play? We have always used 6 pole Molex plugs as specified way back when by HiRailers Unlimited. Things got messy when Molex or Radio Shack discontinued the heavy amp version. I’ve been using the lighter rated plug as it is still available. But caution is the word of the day. As NCT noted above, amps are additive on the common. Since a Z4K can put out up to 10A per circuit, 30A or more (accessories) on the common wire is possible. None of the plugs are rated for that load!(So far, we have not melted  connectors, but I keep wondering when…    Not to mention that you need 10ga wire, which is expensive, and does not fit in the connectors.  So the idea of splitting out the common as NCT did above, makes a whole lot of sense to me. The only issue there is that completely kills the 6 pole standard. I’ve also been considering Anderson Power poles for new connectors . Other than what NCT did above, do you have any experience with these? Do you have a different or better suggestion?

 

Chris

LVHR

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