Decline of Hobby Stores

Cincytrains posted:

I also think it has to do with what area of the US one is in. For example, my in laws live in Findlay, Ohio. Every store in that town is a chain from Olive Garden, Home Depot, Walmart etc..Everything there has a drive through including the beer place where you drive through. Now, Im in White Plains, about 15 min from the Bronx, there are very few chains at all in Westchester County, we just have 1 Walmart. Hardware Stores in the old sense are plentiful, thank God, and are excellent sources for everything. We have a great train store, Tom's Trains at Ardsley Hardware, etc. And if one goes out to Long Island, Train Land, Nassau Hobby, Willis Hobby are all there and are well stocked stores. So I wonder if the NYC Metro area is weathering this storm better. Just my 2 cents!

Great points. We've been lamenting the demise on the LHS on many threads, but you raise a bigger point, the demise of small town retail. The big box chains and chain restaurants are pervasive in rural America right now. WalMart started the trend by setting up shop on the outskirts near the freeways, and the rest is history. The online move is just the continuation of the same trend. I think brick-and-mortar LHS have it tough everywhere like any small retailer, but their odds are better in population-dense areas. I have a number of train LHS options to choose from in the Cleveland-Akron area, for example. 

Another thing that I have noticed is that the stores that survive either tend to cover the entire model railroad hobby (an example is Trainland or Pat's Trains) or are general hobby stores where one can find things beyond the model railroad hobby (Nicholas Smith, Nassau).  There are other examples of stores, many of them forum sponsors, who will not go the way of the dinosaurs because they run their business with an eye towards price competitiveness and service, and have adopted to the era of the internet by putting up a website that serves as a sales portal and advertising.

On a less positive note, I have to say that I have also seen a lot of stores close, and many of those did not surprise me.  Often the people in the store were not particularly helpful or friendly, and the pricing was not competitive.  (One store I recall had numerous signs up stating, "look with your eyes."  Being combative and argumentative with the customers is not a sound sales strategy generally.)  Another thing I have seen is for some of these places to be stuck in time, for example selling new old stock MTH PS1 for its original catalog price, or (same store) sells new MTH at catalog price and acts surprised if you ask for a discount to be competitive with what any other dealer would sell the item for.  I have also experienced a store that puts it on me to deal with defective product.  Never again will I buy anything there.  I am not one to price shop to the last dollar, but until someone starts supplementing my income with additional money just for being a nice guy, I cannot give a vendor significantly more for an item because it makes me feel nice to do so and I want to support a local store.  

While people bemoan the passing of these businesses, at some level I can sympathize but I think it is unavoidable.  The economy is constantly changing and innovating, and part of that destruction is necessary in order to produce the innovation and improvements that we see.  This goes on even in our little corner of the world with this hobby.  People complain but compare a train catalog from 1990 to what you have available today and I think it is hard to argue that the innovation has not produced a better selection and choice of products, at a better price, for the average hobbyist.  

jim sutter posted:

It all depends on the owner, if a train shop is going to make it or not. If they are willing to work hard and put in long hours they will make it.

That's why I would make a special trip out of my way every time on my way to my grandparents just to stop at your shop.  One of the best shops ever.  Sure miss hitting Homer City on the way to Punxsy

Scott

Thank you Scott.

Scott,

   I second that thought, any time I went to Indiana, Pa I stopped at Jim's Trains Shop, we miss his Train Shop and his sparkling personality, along with his honest way of doing business, and the fantastic layout in his store.  Especially Peggy's NASA Train!

We are all glad Jim is having a fantastic retirement, he and Peggy both earned it!

PCRR/Dave

From the post that re-ignited this thread, about the cost of the starter set that had Lionchief + on it, that is a higher end set, and even back in the good old days those cost a lot more, the sets with the more detailed engines, operating cars, etc cost more than the scout sets (which were not particularly cheap back then either).  The other thing is that some places that sell starter sets are not really a high volume train store or even a train store per se, there is a local place that focuses on RC stuff and a couple of other things that has a couple of sets for sale, and they are full price. Place like that for whatever reason figures they are going to maintain the full margin on the item and are willing to have it sitting in inventory, which doesn't make a lot of sense, but a lot of small business owners don't necessarily seem to understand the cost of inventory. 

Without rehashing old thoughts, a modern day hobby store faces a lot of issues, they are a brick and mortar competing against online retailers who don't have the brick and mortar (though, they do of course have warehouses all over the place, shipping, warehouse workers, so it isn't as 'cheap' as people think), and more importantly, because of a law designed to 'encourage' the internet almost 30 years ago, Congress let internet retailers not have to collect sales taxes unless the operation had physical presence in the state the customer lived in, which is kind of idiotic to have these days IMO, the internet isn't going to die nor are internet retailers if they have to collect tax, and doing so is easy even for small businesses, it call can be done electronically and cheaply, including sending the tax in to the states (many if not most states pass on the local tax back to the localities that have it). That is likely to end soon, even Amazon for their own stuff has thrown in the towel and is collecting it (sellers on Amazon not Amazon itself have their own policy). 

Hobby shops have never been huge margin businesses, and having family in another one (construction as a gc), it comes down to nickels and dimes with costs, and also comes down to quite frankly your reputation and how you serve your clients. The contractor who when a potential customer calls gives them the idea that they are doing the customer a favor, the contractor who when scheduling a client to see what their job entails says "I can fit you in in three weeks", or who is slow to respond to questions about a job underway or doesn't call back, is going to end up out of business. The hobby shop that is open at the owner's convenience, 8-4 Monday to Friday and maybe a couple of hours on Saturday, isn't going to do well on the convenience thing (If I hear one more business owner tell me "I want to work regular hours, too", when you talk about them not being convenient, will laugh in their face, businesses exist to serve customers, not the other way around). Likewise the hobby store owner who can't be 'bothered' by customer questions, who treats the hobby shop as a club for he and his buddies/'serious modellers" isn't going to do well. yes, customers can be aweful, yes there is the guy who complains about the lack of LHS but then when they have one, goes there, looks at a product, gets  them to show it to them, test run it, but then goes to the dirt cheapest price on the net, the person who comes in and thinks that their buying a pack of balsa wood makes them the world's best customer, but that is the price of doing business,you suffer the fools to keep the good people. You won't make it with the attitudes I have seen, lot of hoby shop owners for whatever reasons remind me of the old, bitter people I often see at train shows, and it is a turn off (and yeah, I have heard on here the justification for the attitudes, the terrible customers, the kids who destroy everything, etc, and my response is whether justified or not, acting like that is going to turn off good customers whatever pleasure it gives them to act like that). 

The big box store,Walmart and Home depot, is an interesting one, because I think it also gives a clue as to how stores can survive. They won't be able to compete on price, because of the sheer size of these companies and how much power they have over suppliers (Walmart has been credited with being one of the single biggest forces that caused jobs to be outsourced, they were such a big customer that they could dictate prices, something few stores could do). However,  I have seen where it works. There is a hardware store in a nearby town I love, it is really an old fashioned hardware store, they sell a little of everything from lawn and garden supplies, to plumbing, electrical, paint, etc, and while they don't have the selection of a home depot, they often have what I need. They are open when it is convenient to me, full hours on Saturday and Sunday, and they also have stuff home depot wouldn't carry. Their prices are not as cheap as home depot, but for example I needed a couple of 1/2 copper pipe pieces, and the price was about a buck a pipe more expensive than home depot would be, more than worth not having to go to HD, which can be a pain. Likewise, I bought some threaded rod at the hardware store and goofed, I got some stainless steel ones mixed with the galvanized ones, and they noticed it and asked me, at HD they would have rang it up and not told me, wouldn't care. Small stores could also have internet ordering (I believe this is one of the benefits with ACE and True Value co-op membership), where you order it then pick it up at the store, again not rocket science these days. 

One way train stores could compete with the internet is how hardware stores have survived, they could put together a co-op like ACE or True Value, which allows a lot of little stores to have the purchasing power of a bigger big box store. By doing that they could negotiate better prices with Lionel or MTH or whoever, and be able to offer more competitive prices as a result, as the independent hardware stores do with their co-ops. It will never be easy for a brick and mortar independent hobby shop to compete with the net on price, but the advantage net businesses have is eroding with sales taxes and also as the cost of shipping goes up, as it already has. They have the advantage in personal service and being there as a resource, it won't help the type I have seen who complain about the 'death of the LHS' but are the type who refuse to pay anything but a rock bottom price, they want the LHS as their personal showroom then order from the cheapest supplier (then take the engine to the store expecting them to fix it if it is broken), but others will respond, my local hardware store does great business because they have learned that, and they also seem from experience to be able to deal with the grumpy men (and women) types who complain their prices are too high, they can do better at Home Depot or Lowest, yet want red carpet service and information but don't buy anything, firmly telling them they have the right to shop where they want to and good day. 

Thank you Dave.

Ray Lombardo posted:

Another thing that I have noticed is that the stores that survive either tend to cover the entire model railroad hobby (an example is Trainland or Pat's Trains) or are general hobby stores where one can find things beyond the model railroad hobby (Nicholas Smith, Nassau).  There are other examples of stores, many of them forum sponsors, who will not go the way of the dinosaurs because they run their business with an eye towards price competitiveness and service, and have adopted to the era of the internet by putting up a website that serves as a sales portal and advertising.

This is a very good point.   Some friends of mine who run a long time train store, and do well, have often told me it's HO and N that allow them to carry O, just on a volume basis.   They don't sell at MSRP, and their discounts are very competitive.

Their full selection of ancillary items is excellent as well.   Scenery in all scales, wire, and other  things make them a one stop place for train hobbyists.

I disagree that it will be easy for small internet sellers to collect sales taxes nationwide.  I sell model trains and some other stuff on eBay.  Most of the trains I sell come from my own collection or I am selling for a friend or my train club.  The things that I sell from my own collection usually don't sell for what I paid for them.  My total sales are about $1,000 per year.   I have a CA business license that costs $120 per year and I pay sales tax on all CA sales.  (Sometimes the tax comes out of my own pocket because I can't charge tax on all sales.)  Most of my eBay sales go to states East of Mississippi.  I don't see how I could possibly get business licenses in every state where I make an eBay sale and collect and pay sales tax for that state.  I would stop using eBay to sell excess things.  

The only way a nationwide sales tax would work for small eBay sellers like me is for eBay to collect and file the appropriate tax for each state.  Personally, I think that the only way for this to work would be for a uniform sales tax across all states. This would mean that states that have no sales tax would have to implement one and those states such as CA which have very high sales taxes (10% where I live) would probably have to lower their rates.  (In fairness, the CA sales tax is 7%.  A series of local sales taxes (county, BART, etc.) brings the total rate to 10%.)

I think that collecting sales taxes nationwide would be very difficult.  This also why at York the general public is only allowed in the dealer halls.  Large dealers have staffs or accountants to collect sales taxes in every state where they operate.  The small seller from VA who sets up a table at York in the member hall probably does not have PA business license or collect and pay sales tax on his or her sales.

This issue is more complex that it seems at first glance.  

NH Joe

I think it depends on if the market is saturated in a specific place. I've seen places that had several hobby shops and the market couldn't support them all. And they all folded around the same time, leaving a market with no LHSs and nobody willing to fill that void.

If there's a big enough market, more than one LHS can survive within it. For example, Portland Oregon has at least three decent hobby shops (though none are focused on O scale). One is a general hobby shop with a greater focus on RC planes and plastic kits but has two aisles of trains (mostly HO of course). The other two are train/centric and I can't recall any time I've been in there alone. Heck, I was just down there on Saturday and bought some stuff at one of them (as I have most of the times I've been there). Whistle Stop appears to be the most thriving of them, they have two to four employees at any given time and I see people buying stuff there all the time.

Beats me what their secret is other than stocking a little bit of everything (yes, they have a case and two aisles of O scale) and I wish someone could figure out their secret and bottle it for other places.

All that said, I have no idea what type of profit margin they really have. How many stores (hobby or otherwise) have we all seen that looked like they were thriving, and one day they close and you find out they were struggling all that time?

New Haven Joe posted:

I disagree that it will be easy for small internet sellers to collect sales taxes nationwide.  I sell model trains and some other stuff on eBay.  Most of the trains I sell come from my own collection or I am selling for a friend or my train club.  The things that I sell from my own collection usually don't sell for what I paid for them.  My total sales are about $1,000 per year.   I have a CA business license that costs $120 per year and I pay sales tax on all CA sales.  (Sometimes the tax comes out of my own pocket because I can't charge tax on all sales.)  Most of my eBay sales go to states East of Mississippi.  I don't see how I could possibly get business licenses in every state where I make an eBay sale and collect and pay sales tax for that state.  I would stop using eBay to sell excess things.  

The only way a nationwide sales tax would work for small eBay sellers like me is for eBay to collect and file the appropriate tax for each state.  Personally, I think that the only way for this to work would be for a uniform sales tax across all states. This would mean that states that have no sales tax would have to implement one and those states such as CA which have very high sales taxes (10% where I live) would probably have to lower their rates.  (In fairness, the CA sales tax is 7%.  A series of local sales taxes (county, BART, etc.) brings the total rate to 10%.)

I think that collecting sales taxes nationwide would be very difficult.  This also why at York the general public is only allowed in the dealer halls.  Large dealers have staffs or accountants to collect sales taxes in every state where they operate.  The small seller from VA who sets up a table at York in the member hall probably does not have PA business license or collect and pay sales tax on his or her sales.

This issue is more complex that it seems at first glance.  

NH Joe

Congress would need to work this out if for example the Supreme Court rules that sales taxes have to be collected on internet purchases (what is interesting is that pre the internet mail order firms didn't collect sales taxes unless located in the state the buyer was in, they were not much competition to brick and mortar stores), and likely they would put a lower limit on what size business has to report taxes, and they also might stop states from requiring out of state internet businesses to have to get a business license, that business licenses would only apply to the state they are located in), perhaps under the same reasoning that people don't need a driver's license in all 50 states, they need one in their local state only........at least that is my guess, that requiring a state license in all 50 states would be basically a form of protectionism. Back when most internet vendors were tiny operations, the sales tax exclusion was seen as a way to encourage the then new medium, today though it is hard to argue that vendors on the internet are mostly tiny, most firms doing e-commerce on the net do enough sales out of state that having to collect sales taxes and send them in of itself is not an undue burden (again, they likely will give an exemption for businesses below a certain size).  It is one argument that brick and mortar stores have made, that it isn't fair they have to collect tax and internet vendors don't, it is a form of subsidy that shouldn't be there. As far as actually processing sales tax, there is commonly available plug ins for web commerce that know exactly what the local rates are and who to send it to, for the kind of business we are talking about they don't need army of accountants, the software handles all that for them, including sending the funds to the various entitites. It is going to happen, too many people see the sales tax not being collected as unfair to businesses that do have to pay it. Not going to solve the plight of brick and mortar stores, going to take a lot more than the sales tax exemption to help them fully compete against the convenience of web based commerce, but it is going to make it a lot more close than it is today.  Put it this way, years ago people said Banks were going to disappear, it was all going to be online, bank branches weren't needed, within the past 10-15 years suddenly bank branches exploded all over the place, because they found it had them doing a lot more business, and today bank branches are often open late and weekends, not 8-3 Monday to Friday *shrug*.......

bigkid posted:

Congress would need to work this out if for example the Supreme Court rules that sales taxes have to be collected on internet purchases 

 I don't have any faith that Congress will work anything out.  I do believe that the Supreme Court will most likely rule that taxes need to be collected in all states.  There is too much political pressure to do it.  I doubt that this will help the brick and mortar stores, however.  Except for restaurants and other such stores, I believe that most businesses in the future will need to do internet sales to survive.  I think that the little fish such as myself will be left to swim for themselves in a new tax centered world.  NH Joe

I see the decline of the hobby shop being the result of the decline of the hobbyist.  Today's youth lacks the motivation and manual skills necessary for a hobby. We have entered a "push button" era in history where with few exceptions, everything deemed necessary is being done with the smartphone.

Dennis LaGrua posted:

I see the decline of the hobby shop being the result of the decline of the hobbyist.  Today's youth lacks the motivation and manual skills necessary for a hobby. We have entered a "push button" era in history where with few exceptions, everything deemed necessary is being done with the smartphone.

In my own experience- with two female grandchildren (7 and 11), plus a grandson (just 2 years old!) in my other son's family- they are all fascinated by my trains, and the LionChief starter sets we bought them for Christmas.  It seems to make no sense- they have never seen a steam engine- only diesel-driven , EOTDs full-scale trains.  YET- they LOVE steam engine models, and cabooses (cabeese?).

When you think about it- running model trains is the same as a video game, BUT with a "real" component.  

There are many who think the postwar boom in trains was related to several factors:

- Fathers returning from WWII wanted "the best" for their kids, in many cases things their own families could not afford due to being kids during the Great Depression.  And 40's- 50's families were willing to invest a large chunk of their income to do it.  As well, those fathers often were active participants themselves.

- The fact that Lionel AF and others cost so dearly, meant they were NOT really playthings.  They were family amusement, often kept in storage until the holiday period.  This "special" seasonal aspect might have been a large part of the magic.  Will the kids be as excited if the trains are set up all year??  I don't know. 

-  Maybe the smartphone connection IS a great development for model railroading.  MAYBE it does "connect" a younger generation??

- AND- "Model Railroading is Fun" to quote another (than OGR) magazine.  If it's fun for us- why wouldn't it be fun for kids??  Every activity that "kids today" are exposed to must compete with every other activity.

DADS-  do model railroading with your kids and/ or grandchildren.  They will like it!!  You will enjoy trains more too!!  Don't just go hide in the trainroom.

"We have entered a "push button" era in history where with few exceptions, everything deemed necessary is being done with the smartphone."

I'm constantly amazed and disappointed at these sorts of comments about younger people. I can only guess that it's because the folks making these comments don't actually have much contact with people in their teens, 20s and 30s, or are making entirely superficial judgements about the younger generation, based upon what they read or casual observation in McDonalds .

I daily deal with highly motivated professionals and students in the younger age groups. In my experience,  these sorts of clueless and demeaning remarks are thoroughly unfair and, most importantly, totally wrong.  The interest amongst young people in nature, outdoors activities, the environment, the well being of others, crafts, literature, the arts, etc. is much greater than the generation I grew up with in the 1950s and 1960s.  Just because children don't build Revell or Monogram plastic model aircraft models or make doilies doesn't mean they have no interest in creativity or the creation of "stuff."  How many young people today are writing apps, using 3D printing, learning to be plumbers, electricians, HVAC techs, etc.? A whole lot.  Get off their case, curmudgeons!

And get off my grass!

I concur that there are many younger people involved in hobbies.  They are just different hobbies such as building remote controlled robots.  The Maker Fairs in the SF Bay Area are packed with people of all ages creating all sorts of fantastic things.  Cell phones play an important role in these hobbies.  The youngsters at my model railroad club use their phones to control their trains on both the HO and G&O layouts.  People will always be building models of different things as the world changes.  How many of us have built a model horse stable with wagons?

NH Joe

Landsteiner posted:

"We have entered a "push button" era in history where with few exceptions, everything deemed necessary is being done with the smartphone."

I'm constantly amazed and disappointed at these sorts of comments about younger people. I can only guess that it's because the folks making these comments don't actually have much contact with people in their teens, 20s and 30s, or are making entirely superficial judgements about the younger generation, based upon what they read or casual observation in McDonalds .

I daily deal with highly motivated professionals and students in the younger age groups. In my experience,  these sorts of clueless and demeaning remarks are thoroughly unfair and, most importantly, totally wrong.  The interest amongst young people in nature, outdoors activities, the environment, the well being of others, crafts, literature, the arts, etc. is much greater than the generation I grew up with in the 1950s and 1960s.  Just because children don't build Revell or Monogram plastic model aircraft models or make doilies doesn't mean they have no interest in creativity or the creation of "stuff."  How many young people today are writing apps, using 3D printing, learning to be plumbers, electricians, HVAC techs, etc.? A whole lot.  Get off their case, curmedugeons! And get off my grass!

Good point.  For additional and timely gloss, see the cover of today's WSJ:  "Wanted:  Teenagers to Fill Local Jobs."  The story reports on one 17 year old, Thayer McCollum, who works part time after school installing avionics in aircraft. 

I always thought that it was a very bad trend when we say teens exiting the part time workforce for volunteering or activities because while many of these typical teenage jobs are menial, they teach the basic skills that are a prerequisite for entering the workforce successfully later.  Apparently for many kids what is happening is that they are getting these foundational experiences while also having the ability to do meaningful work.

Landsteiner posted:

"We have entered a "push button" era in history where with few exceptions, everything deemed necessary is being done with the smartphone."

I'm constantly amazed and disappointed at these sorts of comments about younger people. I can only guess that it's because the folks making these comments don't actually have much contact with people in their teens, 20s and 30s, or are making entirely superficial judgements about the younger generation, based upon what they read or casual observation in McDonalds .

I daily deal with highly motivated professionals and students in the younger age groups. In my experience,  these sorts of clueless and demeaning remarks are thoroughly unfair and, most importantly, totally wrong.  The interest amongst young people in nature, outdoors activities, the environment, the well being of others, crafts, literature, the arts, etc. is much greater than the generation I grew up with in the 1950s and 1960s.  Just because children don't build Revell or Monogram plastic model aircraft models or make doilies doesn't mean they have no interest in creativity or the creation of "stuff."  How many young people today are writing apps, using 3D printing, learning to be plumbers, electricians, HVAC techs, etc.? A whole lot.  Get off their case, curmedugeons! And get off my grass!

I agree totally, this is the same drivel my generation heard about tv and "instant gratification", the 30's kids (who became the 'greatest generation') were supposedly lazy, lacked the drive to work (despite the fact that the depression kind if robbed them of the jobs they could have had), this is typical. Not to mention that hobbies have generally been an older generation thing, I think more than a few of us forget what we were like in our teens and 20's, when cars and dating and school and other things caught our fancy, and back in the 1970's when I was growing up most of the people i saw in Model Railroader magazine, or the guys at local clubs, were generally older, 30 somethings were the young turks, maybe some kids/young people in their 20's.  

You are correct about the arts, by the way, it is probably the reverse of 'instant gratification'. In things like ballet kids have to commit at a very young age, and literally by the time they are a late teenager it is make or break time. With music (talking classical music here) kids commit very young, the level of playing required to get into a top level music or arts school is light years higher than it was a generation or two ago. My son is a grad student on the violin and by the time he was 11 or 12 had to make a committment to it on a level few adults would make, and has to handle something that is full of all kinds of pitfalls and requires a level of toughness few would understand, rejection, teachers like the guy in the movie "whiplash" (and yes, folks, that type of teacher exists on various levels)...and this is not rare. Sure, my son is part of the 'electronic age', but he also has had the dedication where he likely is playing better than a lot of professionals from an earlier generation because his committment had to be much more than theirs.  

Hobbies have tailed off, but I think that reflects a different world more than kids being 'virtual kids'. People simply don't have the time, the days of 9-5 jobs and working in your local town with a 10 minute commute died a long time ago for many/most people. People (and kids) work much harder than they did a generation or more ago, jobs require more hours and we drive or commute longer distances, then often come home to work, kids are loaded with a ton of homework we never had (and I took honors level courses in high school, mind you, and kids these days have a ton more homework than I did), and parents both are working, and when they get home likely have things to do with the kids and so forth. Weekends are often the time to get things done they can't during the week, it is when I get to things in the house that need doing, do the yard work, the garden, and maybe have some time with my wife, during the week I leave home before 7 and usually get home between 8 and 8:30 at night...and this is not uncommon. It is why so many of us on this board are retired or near retirement, the time is there to do those thngs.  I remember predictions for the death of model railroading back in the 80's, how it was graying, young people weren't interested, yet the hobby is still very much alive based on the number of companies making products for it and the wealth of stuff out there across the board. 

It isn't that young people have changed, they are different, of course, but so were we from our parents and grandparents in more than a few ways; my dad was of the depression generation, and his view of things , the way he would do things, are different than I see and do things (not that I didn't learn valuable lessons from him and my mom , of course), it is that we have gotten older and forgotten what we were like when we were young, or how we saw old farts like ourselves now when we were young. 

Hobbies and Hobby shops will survive, they are kind of like the classical music world I am very familiar with now, people have been decrying the aging of the audience, how tough it is to make a living in it, how no one cares any more, but they were saying that 200 years ago when the nobility stopped the patronage they once could do, they said it in the 19th century when it was hard to get people to pay for tickets, it was said in the 20's and 30's when economic hard times hurt the arts..and somehow, it survives

I think all train stores should be required to stock at least one of every catalog item for all major manufacturers so I can hold and touch and try out on their test track, and then go online and order it at a discount and no sales tax.

GVDobler posted:

I think all train stores should be required to stock at least one of every catalog item for all major manufacturers so I can hold and touch and try out on their test track, and then go online and order it at a discount and no sales tax.

I believe the Supreme Court of the land was to rule on the Sales tax issue sometime this week. 

Please de-grease you fingers before touching that model, or wear white gloves. 

You forgot to bring your on-line purchase to be repaired at the brick and mortar store.  

A recent train store purchase I offered  a check v.s. credit card which brought a big smile.   Credit card fees to the store owners have become a big debit to their profits.  IMO.  Check required, driver's license ID. address, and phone number. Apparently still a better deal than a credit card.     

I don't understand at all where we got into this mindset of any kid having to be signed up for so much stuff, they have no time for anything else. Even rich kids didn't do that I was a kid/teen (I was born in 1969). You might have a little league once a year, and that'd be it, if even that. The poor kids out in the sticks (like me) didn't do anything but figure stuff out for themselves.

We didn't raise out kids that way. But some did.
I think it comes from: lack of other kids in the immediate neighborhood and/or the general feeling that kids can't be left alone to wander the neighborhood and make up their own activites.

You people worry and whine too much. Life and our society is constantly changing and will continue to do so. Nothing stays the same. Ask the dinosaurs. I would wager half the hobby shops closed because the owners were older and the other half weren't very good business people and lost out. Deal with it. Run trains and be grateful.

jim pastorius posted:

I would wager half the hobby shops closed because the owners were older and the other half weren't very good business people and lost out.

Where I live, I believe the majority of them that closed were exactly this. The owner of one, specifically, was desperately looking for someone to buy him out but it never happened (one guy tried but didn't have the money to back the purchase and had to give it back). I'm 100% sure that guy would be happier if the store was still open. I know I sure would, as I spent a lot of money in there during my layout build!

A couple I know that folded were horribly run, as if they were clubhouses and couldn't be bothered by customers. Frankly, I'm glad those closed because they deserved it.

The ones that still exist in the general region and sell trains are the better ones that have more than the same guy working there every day. No clubhouse mindset at any of them!

jim pastorius posted:

I would wager half the hobby shops closed because the owners were older and the other half weren't very good business people and lost out.

Seems plausible.

bigkid posted:

New Haven Joe posted:

I disagree that it will be easy for small internet sellers to collect sales taxes nationwide.  I sell model trains and some other stuff on eBay.  Most of the trains I sell come from my own collection or I am selling for a friend or my train club.  The things that I sell from my own collection usually don't sell for what I paid for them.  My total sales are about $1,000 per year.   I have a CA business license that costs $120 per year and I pay sales tax on all CA sales.  (Sometimes the tax comes out of my own pocket because I can't charge tax on all sales.)  Most of my eBay sales go to states East of Mississippi.  I don't see how I could possibly get business licenses in every state where I make an eBay sale and collect and pay sales tax for that state.  I would stop using eBay to sell excess things.  

The only way a nationwide sales tax would work for small eBay sellers like me is for eBay to collect and file the appropriate tax for each state.  Personally, I think that the only way for this to work would be for a uniform sales tax across all states. This would mean that states that have no sales tax would have to implement one and those states such as CA which have very high sales taxes (10% where I live) would probably have to lower their rates.  (In fairness, the CA sales tax is 7%.  A series of local sales taxes (county, BART, etc.) brings the total rate to 10%.)

I think that collecting sales taxes nationwide would be very difficult.  This also why at York the general public is only allowed in the dealer halls.  Large dealers have staffs or accountants to collect sales taxes in every state where they operate.  The small seller from VA who sets up a table at York in the member hall probably does not have PA business license or collect and pay sales tax on his or her sales.

This issue is more complex that it seems at first glance.  

NH Joe

Congress would need to work this out if for example the Supreme Court rules that sales taxes have to be collected on internet purchases (what is interesting is that pre the internet mail order firms didn't collect sales taxes unless located in the state the buyer was in, they were not much competition to brick and mortar stores), and likely they would put a lower limit on what size business has to report taxes, and they also might stop states from requiring out of state internet businesses to have to get a business license, that business licenses would only apply to the state they are located in), perhaps under the same reasoning that people don't need a driver's license in all 50 states, they need one in their local state only........at least that is my guess, that requiring a state license in all 50 states would be basically a form of protectionism. Back when most internet vendors were tiny operations, the sales tax exclusion was seen as a way to encourage the then new medium, today though it is hard to argue that vendors on the internet are mostly tiny, most firms doing e-commerce on the net do enough sales out of state that having to collect sales taxes and send them in of itself is not an undue burden (again, they likely will give an exemption for businesses below a certain size).  It is one argument that brick and mortar stores have made, that it isn't fair they have to collect tax and internet vendors don't, it is a form of subsidy that shouldn't be there. As far as actually processing sales tax, there is commonly available plug ins for web commerce that know exactly what the local rates are and who to send it to, for the kind of business we are talking about they don't need army of accountants, the software handles all that for them, including sending the funds to the various entitites. It is going to happen, too many people see the sales tax not being collected as unfair to businesses that do have to pay it. Not going to solve the plight of brick and mortar stores, going to take a lot more than the sales tax exemption to help them fully compete against the convenience of web based commerce, but it is going to make it a lot more close than it is today.  Put it this way, years ago people said Banks were going to disappear, it was all going to be online, bank branches weren't needed, within the past 10-15 years suddenly bank branches exploded all over the place, because they found it had them doing a lot more business, and today bank branches are often open late and weekends, not 8-3 Monday to Friday *shrug*.......

 Banks ARE disappearing here, branches closed in favour of internet banking, the cheque book - almost consigned to history. As I don't live in the US my train buying is price driven with the exception of specialist items like track components.

 

 

 

 

mwb posted:

jim pastorius posted:

I would wager half the hobby shops closed because the owners were older and the other half weren't very good business people and lost out.

Seems plausible.

I've seen a lot of shops close over the years, the story varies but the trend is consistent: in one shop, I asked if they did any ebay or internet business and guy almost pushed me out of the door (he didn't, and his shop is now closed). Bottom line, he has many customers come in, inspect the 'good stuff' (high $ items), then go buy on the internet for $20 less. He said most customers come in to buy the cheap stuff, and do their big purchases on line. So the revenue has dramatically dropped, while the costs of running a storefront continues to grow. The hours are pretty long, and the revenue stream is soft. There are so many items that have been produced that it's near impossible to stock a retail store and hope the right customer comes in to buy what you could afford to stock.

My dad had a MR business in the 1960's and 70's, but it was out of a converted garage. At that point in time, brass locos were a big deal, but some of the brands would insist on a store front, would not wholesale to garage outfits (like my dad).  And if they found out that you were discounting, you were GONE as a customer. That doesn't exist anymore, the manufacturers are glad to just clear out the stuff when it comes in from China or Korea.

So now if you look at the remaining shops, they all do internet business, they all do the shows, and in some cases do not have a retail outfit.  And many maintain a customer relationship and will find desired trains if asked. Having parts and a repair capability does not hurt either, especially with the electronic stuff that is in most new trains. (A friend of mine does 50 DCC conversions a week through a large MR shop, so that keeps the older stuff moving as well).

So yes, some quit because they are at retirement age or higher, some clearly weren't good business people, but unless you broaden your visibility with internet and shows, you don't stand a chance.

Jim

ENP1976 posted:

Went to the Big Hobby store two towns over today. You know the kind, large, tons of R/C cars, Airsoft guns, slot cars, model kits, and yes trains. So I walk to the HO section and Im looking for some self tapping screws to attach trucks to an old MDC boxcar kit. First they tell me to look for the screws in the "airplane" section. Then I ask for a train specific salesperson and of course that person is a female (not anything wrong with that per se) but I asked her if she owns any trains at home... Big surprise-- she said NO!!
Ok so I ask about the screws, and she tells me to go to Home Depot. Last I checked, Home Depot is not a "hobby shop"... Before I leave, I check out the O gauge section, and they have lots of old n.o.s. MPC/ Lionel freight cars from the 70's and 80's. Can you say sticker shock!! $70.00 for a tank car.. I mean who is buying this stuff at those prices. Any wonder why the young people are not into trains these days?

i agree its only the folks with deep pockets that can afford this stuff and its all BTO now even i get told no on the used stuff i've wanted a layout since i was 10 and i'm almost 23 and the internet SHOULD NOT HAVE THE POWER IT HAS

yeah i get told no all the time and when the catalogs come out i get all excited and then i see high 3 and 4 figure prices and it makes me sad. and some of these prices are on Starter sets and i get discouraged and fearful that i may never enjoy trains like i want to

plus what about owners of these places that the place puts food on the table these dudes matter too and i prefer brick and morter because i have people like me who love trains to talk to

and its so sad the way my generation is going with out trains and god and good people to turn to they turn to drugs instead

just this week my friend died from drugs and she was about my age we used to go to school together and i used to tell her stories about trains and mostly female railroader characters glory hunters pulling the pig tail while high balling down the high iron.

its just sad i just wish i had a delorean and a flux compacitor and could go back and change things for the better.

rustyrail o scale posted:

 With this new phone app the next big thing I would imagine would be a hover train that doesn't use any track but rather uses global satellite positioning like my phantom drone does. 

a hover train ?! that would be off the hook awesome

Running any small business is not easy, these days retail of any type competes against the internet, and other businesses face competition that narrows margins while costs go up. A couple of years ago a well known sheet music store in NYC (a business that thanks to the internet and digital download of music parts is dying as well) had the owner ready to retire and a young guy I got to know there was thinking of buying it.  We came up with recommendations on how he could potentially do it, emphasize the service aspect of it with an internet presence, having a good inventory program that not only had in house but also could tell the person looking if they could get it and how fast they could get it...in the end he decided not to go ahead because it was just too tight margins for the costs involved. 

Others have hit the nail on the head, to be in a LHS business requires a lot of elements, gonna list them just for the heck of it

-losing the attitude that you are somehow doing the customer a favor by being in business, and realizing customers are cultivated by actually treating them with respect, something a lot of small businesses have problems with IME, the 'nasty old men' at trains shows often are the 'nasty old men' running hobby shops

-Find ways to distinguish yourself, things like repair are obvious, or something like being able to track down items someone is looking for and having trouble finding it, finding it and ordering it for them as a service (with a fee if it doesn't involve wholesale ordering). 

-Obvious one, answering customer's questions, knowing what you sell, and if you don't know, promise to ask people you know who do and get back to them. Yes, some people will do this and not shop at your shop, but you will soon figure out who they are and politely turn them away. 

-Having stuff other people don't sell, especially things that might be available at other kinds of stores like big box stores. Trying to compete on price alone is a no winner, and trying to sell commonly found things at a higher price isn't going to work all that well. 

-The store out there with things like sponsorships, maybe local clubs, activities, etc, it still works

-Internet presence that actually makes people want to shop at the store. While people are looking for things on the website, have banners announcing things like store events (let's say a workshop on basic wiring of a layout, or days with in store discounts)

-big one, convenience. It is all well and good to want to work regular hours, but for a brick and mortar store that is to be honest obnoxious. The hobby store open Monday to Friday 8-4 or 5 and 3 hours on Saturday quite honestly won't get my business, that is someone who either is relying on the independently wealthy, retirees or those unemployed, and it isn't a winning strategy. If you want to work 8 hours a day, open later and stay open later, 12-8 or 1-9 is better than 8 to 4. Likewise, weekends are when most people are off, so it is better to be closed Monday and be open Saturday and Sunday (or maybe be off Monday and Tuesday and open on the weekend). Friday nights are a good night to be open late, that guy working on his layout, the person who is into RC he needs fuel or something to repair a plane, may likely be thinking about that Friday. 

-Location and area. If you live in a relatively less densely populate placed, a place with a population not likely to be into what you sell (for example, a snowboard shop in an area heavy with us older folks), it is a lot harder to get customers, on the other hand a hobby shop in an area that is older might do well. 

-Store that doesn't come off as a private club. Someone else mentioned the hobby shop that seemed to exist as a club for the owner's buddies, a permanent coffee klatch, and that can turn off people coming in to shop, especially newbies asking for advice. I have gotten some great advice over the years from the guys hanging out there, but I also have seen plenty of people including myself get turned off when asking a basic question and seeing some idiots making you feel like an idiot for asking, or if you talk about something you are thinking of doing, the guys who make themselves feel better by putting any idea (not their own) as 'stupid'. One thing to say that may be difficult, won't work, another to make someone feel small. 

It is up to the store owner to make sure this doesn't happen, and to be honest a bunch of guys hanging around by itself can turn people off,fair or unfair. Something on the show "Bar Rescue" comes to mind, he said that if a bar or restaurant had more than a few motorcycles parked outside it, that a lot of people would not go in, especially women. Might be fun to have your buddies around to kibitz with, but it can also be hurting your business in ways you don't realize. 

Still a hard business, but when running a difficult business it is really shooting yourself in the foot by not being aware of every little thing that affects the business. Once upon a time LHS had a monopoly, they were literally the only place to go (or maybe places where more than 1 existed), back when catalog sales were not necessarily discount and certainly were not that convenient, and I think a lot of the existing businesses look back at that and sigh, when they could be open Monday to Friday 8-4, could do what they wanted, etc because they had a captive audience, rather than looking at today or tomorrow. 

paigetrain posted:

and its so sad the way my generation is going with out trains and god and good people to turn to they turn to drugs instead

I think it's a stretch to say that not being interested in model trains leads to drug abuse...

Rusty

Rusty Traque posted:

paigetrain posted:

and its so sad the way my generation is going with out trains and god and good people to turn to they turn to drugs instead

I think it's a stretch to say that not being interested in model trains leads to drug abuse...

Rusty

The idea that something, anything, can be a substitute for drugs or will keep people from drugs is extremely naive.  Drug abuse is a much deeper issue than that.  No amount of activities or distractions can solve this problem.  I have experience here, I know this well.

As for the LHS, smiling accompanies by a friendly and helpful attitude goes a long way.  I have and would pay a little more in this environment.

I mentioned to the manager of my favorite chain grocery that lots of people were using their phones to "price compare" and he said it's killing his business.  He has to discount every item to the lowest price customers can bring up on their phones just to be competitive.  It's a vicious cycle of price and re-price.   It's a buyers market because they have lots of information just a touch away.

I even have a program that tells me when a price falls to the point I want it, or "lowest ever" price.  It's called "Camel Camel" and it's saved me thousands$.

As far as kids; they have many more choices of how to spend their time than the former generation ever dreamed of.  I doubt model trains are high on their lists.  One of my grandsons loves trains, but if I mention taking the drones out to fly, he's ALL over that... goggles on before we're out the door.

I mentioned to the manager of my favorite chain grocery that lots of people were using their phones to "price compare" and he said it's killing his business.

I've been doing the majority of the food shopping in my family for over thirty years. A few years ago, maybe 5 or so, I noticed a change in how most folks shopped. More couples shopping together. More people checking labels, doing price comparisons, using coupons, and referencing sales information. Most importantly, more terse expressions on peoples faces.
As most of us have noticed, the price of food gets jacked up at every excuse, like fuel costs, but never drop back down when fuel costs fall.
The latest trick seems to be using the same size packaging, but putting less inside.

So who can blame people for comparison shopping?
And maybe this is one of the reasons people have less time/money for trains.
It takes time to comparison shop and go to multiple stores.

Waddy posted:

I mentioned to the manager of my favorite chain grocery that lots of people were using their phones to "price compare" and he said it's killing his business.  He has to discount every item to the lowest price customers can bring up on their phones just to be competitive.  It's a vicious cycle of price and re-price.   It's a buyers market because they have lots of information just a touch away.

I even have a program that tells me when a price falls to the point I want it, or "lowest ever" price.  It's called "Camel Camel" and it's saved me thousands$.

As far as kids; they have many more choices of how to spend their time than the former generation ever dreamed of.  I doubt model trains are high on their lists.  One of my grandsons loves trains, but if I mention taking the drones out to fly, he's ALL over that... goggles on before we're out the door.

You left out the third camel (the gray one), in CamelCamelCamel. I use it too but I only had luck in finding low prices or getting low price alerts for products on Amazon, not on the websites for Best Buy or Sears. Also, it didn’t work for clothing or shoes on Amazon that had multiple size or fit selections.

These are just my opinion,

Thanks,

Naveen

Yes, it is Camel Camel Camel; and I also use it for Amazon, where I do the majority of my shopping these days, from welders to car parts to groceries. 

A long time hobby shop in Jackson NJ is for sale due to owner health issues.  If not sold, it will probably be gone.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=...C0_hxDwfjrqhXYww6lFk

I think it all comes down to what people want and what they are willing to pay extra for (or not). Where I live, at least observing when people are shopping, I don't see that many people who are intensely looking at prices on everything or who appear to go to multiple places to shop based on which place has what cheaper (obviously there are some that do), the local supermarkets do run specials and they are obviously aware of what the other guy charges, but I don't think people are intensely using apps to find the cheapest grocery prices per se in my area. The reason is the time involved in finding the prices and schlepping from store to store just takes too much time to be worth the savings involved. The reason is the same one why hobbies have declined, people just have less and less leisure time, with both parents working, and working longer hours than people in the past did and having much longer commutes (9-5 with a 20 minute commute is nowhere near the norm), and working at home too, then all the family activities, taking care of the house stuff, means the weekends are packed as it is.  Other areas could well be different than the burbs where I live, economic necessity would dictate a lot, too. 

Getting back to the LHS issue, because trains are a discretionary item it depends on how much extra people are willing to spend on things like the ability to see things in person, to get help when needed, advice, recommendations and so forth, and a lot of people want the absolutely lowest price, so it isn't surprising hobby shops are disappearing, and sadly a lot of the people who are "price is everything" resent that the local hobby shop is closing because they got 'good service there', the owner was 'a friend', yet they buy anything big online, they want their cake and eat it too and it just isn't possible. If we want to see the LHS survive, assuming they are a good place to shop otherwise, then we may have to be less price conscious to support them, as they say you don't get much for nothing. 

C W Burfle posted:

I mentioned to the manager of my favorite chain grocery that lots of people were using their phones to "price compare" and he said it's killing his business.

I've been doing the majority of the food shopping in my family for over thirty years. A few years ago, maybe 5 or so, I noticed a change in how most folks shopped. More couples shopping together. More people checking labels, doing price comparisons, using coupons, and referencing sales information. Most importantly, more terse expressions on peoples faces.
As most of us have noticed, the price of food gets jacked up at every excuse, like fuel costs, but never drop back down when fuel costs fall.
The latest trick seems to be using the same size packaging, but putting less inside.

So who can blame people for comparison shopping?
And maybe this is one of the reasons people have less time/money for trains.
It takes time to comparison shop and go to multiple stores.

I think perhaps the reason why more people comparison shop and use coupons these days is there simply are more bills to pay than there were in the '40s and '50s not to mention that living costs have risen necessitating that many families must have both parents work to have a nice life style. I grew up in the '70s and we were lucky my father had a good enough job that my mother could be a stay at home mom. Today's families have a cable bill, an internet bill, a cell phone bill for both mom and dad, a bill for a home security system (maybe not everyone but some do) , and don't forget car repair/maintenance bills (much less people repair/maintain their own cars as they did back in the day) and let's not forget credit card debt which did exist in the '70s but it was nothing like it is today. It just seems to me that there are so many more recurring bills today than there were when I was growing up. 

I work part time at Ready to Roll in North Miami.    There are no other stores in the state as well stocked and knowledgeable about our hobby.    We do business all over the country as well as South America and Europe.    Bill Lucas the owner had the wisdom to understand that foot traffic alone will not sustain his store.   For that reason he decided to have a strong online presence.    That decision boosted his sales.   Of course there are still the regulars who come in all the time as well as first timers.    When a new customer visits our store they are truly amazed by the inventory of trains as well as other products needed to expand their layouts.  The trains are neatly displayed so the customer can really see them.   Bill also doesn’t limit his inventory to O gauge.    He has loaded the store with both HO and N gauge trains.  He also stocks the store with all the items needed to expand your layout.    When people call the store with questions related to the hobby or about new items he knows the answer, and if not will find out and call back.     IMO, that’s what makes a store float or sink.     

I have visited many stores over my lifetime and you can pretty much tell which ones will live and those that will fold.    It’s essential to have a strong online presence, good inventory, and excellent customer skills to survive.    Just my thoughts!

Vinny26 posted:

 It’s essential to have a strong online presence, good inventory, and excellent customer skills to survive.    Just my thoughts!

All of which Ready to Roll has. One of my LHS, just so happens to be 1390 miles down I-95 a couple of exits.