delivery date joke

Well, there always is an alternative:  Just don't buy the item and move on to something else.  If you want it badly enough, you'll just have to wait patiently.

People do need to realize that much of the manufacturing process--all done overseas--is out of the control of the manufacturers.  It shouldn't be, of course, but the hard fact is that it is.  You can be 100% sure that all of these manufacturers would dearly LOVE to see ob-schedule delivery.

I'm one of those who couldn't care less what nameplate is on the item.  I just buy the things that appeal to me for any of a number of reasons.  The nameplate would be at the bottom of the list for me.

You just agreed with me in that we do have to wait patiently (even if over a year) because we do want the item and no other manufacturer can compare to what Lionel is putting out and oh by the way, the majority of us love the lionel name and it's certainly not something at the bottom of our list...in fact for most it's at the top! Finally, that's my point why even put a shipping date on an item when it changes and changes and changes.

indydanny

Ever hear the word TEASE?  By putting that date out there makes us like the Greyhounds at the race track chasing that **** rabbit.

You do realize the #6 and #7 sets are not Lionel products. They are made by MTH with Lionel badging.

I've said for years that, given the manufacturing problems evident in recent times, these firms should only list an estimated quarter of the year for delivery...first, quarter, second quarter, etc.  That, at least, would bring things closer to reality and help to alleviate all this concern with delivery dates being missed.

Actually, ALL Lionel Corporation Tinplate is made by MTH under a licensing arrangement with Lionel.  The nameplate is the only difference between MTH and LCT product.

If the nameplate is the determining criterion for you, that's fine, but do not deceive yourself into thinking that what you'll be getting is coming via Lionel manufacturing.

Even the earlier Lionel Classics line was made via MTH.

I said that because the OP was referring to those sets and implied he did not know they are MTH products.

Some of Lionels O-gauge scale stuff was also made by Mikes Train House in the late 80s they became MTH later on.

I think you were referring to the original poster about the nameplate part and not me.

Yes, Jim, I was just adding support to what you already posted.  As far as tinplate is concerned, much of what bears the Lionel name, in recent years at least, was made by Mike's Train House or, as it later became, MTH.  There are some exceptions--"Prewar Celebration" items perhaps?--but not many.

OK, I don't know the origin of the Lionel Prewar Celebration items, but it's safe to say they were made in Asia, as is everything else these days. So that's not an issue. They were made by Lionel prior to the LCT agreement, and so are probably the most Lionel modern tinplate you can buy. I don't think there's any affiliation with MTH concerning those products.

All I can say is that you had to wait a good six months for those early order items. I think I waited about 9 months for my PWC Red Comet. 

As for the rest of the stuff, and the waiting and waiting, and waiting? Well, if the wait is a bother, then I'd not preorder. It's a consistent problem and to think things will be different is a little bit naive.

Remember, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, expecting a different outcome. It doesn't change...

If you want a #6, you can buy a real one from the early 1900's for about $1,000 or less. It will be Lionel, it will be American made, and it will be in your hands as soon as you pay for it, excluding any shipping time, of course. It will have a lot more character than the new one. An original #6 and some olive 18, 19, 190 cars makes for a great looking set.

An original #7 is a bit more difficult to find, but there are many older repro's out there that are more true to the original, and they go cheap as well.

I keep telling you guys that originals are the cheapest they've been in 5-7 years. Now's the time to capitalize.

Yes, it's definitely a pretty good time to buy originals, if that's your thing.  You certainly won't have to wait for them!

I'm not into well-played-with stuff myself, and just prefer the shiny new repros.  I'm also not oriented to any particular brand name for any of my trains, so that also does make things a bit easier.  And, I have a whole lot of patience (learned with age), so I am relatively content to just wait for items to arrive.  It does complicate hobby budget planning a bit, but at my level of spending (quite moderate) that's no real problem.

We're just all very fortunate that someone is even making these items nowadays.  Fortunately, Mike Wolf's first love in toy trains is tinplate.

I agree with you Allan and I also prefer the new unmolested shiny Lionel Corporation stuff with all of the latest technology.  I didn't say I'm not willing to wait for the products but like most people don't like it......however in the long run and total scheme of things it's worth it to get what no other is making.  Again thanks to Mike Wolf we do have the ability to get new tinplate and not the old stuff that always seems to have it's problems. Finally I don't care that MTH is producing the tinplate...I just love the fact that they teamed up with Lionel and have agreed to put the Lionel nameplate on the new high tech standard gauge items in this joint effort.

If you think I'm alone don't kid yourself as the Lionel and MTH catalogs are the most anticipated train catalogs anywhere. It's fun!

indydanny

Train Joke:

'What's the use of you having a timetable if your stupid trains never stick to it?' demanded Paul of the stationmaster.

'Well, sir,' rejoined the railwayman to Paul, 'how would you even know they were running late if not for the timetable?' 

Please. PLEASE, stop giving away the secrets on original stuff! 

Some weeks ago, maybe a month or two, there was a poster who stated that MTH had received  the Lionel dies for the Lionel Standard Ga from Rich Kughn . You refuted that fact! Why now the change of tune? 

The comment was that the original 1930's dies were given to Mike Wolf.  Not only is that patently false, but impossible since it is well known that the original dies were scrapped well before the post war era.  However, when Lionel wanted to produce tinplate in the 1980's, Mike was the go to guy since he had acquired experience working with Jerry Williams.  No tinplate made after 1940 was produced by Lionel directly.

No new item Sta. Ga. was produced after 1934, No tinplate O Ga. tinplate was produced after 1941.  And so James, where did Jerry Williams acquire his molds ? Maybe in the same fashion as his hudsons, or all the postwar Lionel repros. Well known they were scrapped? Really, you have proof ! BTW, I didn't ask you for a response, I asked Allan Miller.

Okay, Allan Miller will give you a response:  

He had new tooling made after obtaining originals and then disassembling them.  Read the book (The Story of Williams Electric Trains, authored by John Hubbard and published in 1987 by Greenberg). His first product, by the way, was a repro of the Ives 1694 electric, chosen because originals were so scarce.

And just for the record:  Anyone is free to respond to any post here. 

Maybe I should keep my mouth shut. To each his own. What we buy is our own choice.

But how many more threads about MTH production delays???

Thank you Your Honor, I have no further questions for Mr. Miller, ( his honor) :'"please step down Mr. Miller." I have no need to ridicule you at all ! He obtained the originals, that was the fact originally stated. Time and time again lack of knowledge is thrown into the hopper with arrogant responses from your posters who challenge the truth when most don't even know their great-great grandfather's name ! I never read John Hubbard's book . Ives was taken over through receivership by Lionel.  I know that as a personal fact. Have a great day Mr. Miller. And now you may dismiss me Mr. Miller .

Alan,

Just to clarify:

"He had new tooling made after obtaining originals and then disassembling them."

The term "originals" in this statement, refers to original trains, which he disassembled and used to make the new tooling, correct?

I think this was misinterpreted that it meant "original tools" by some, if I am reading all this right.

Yes, that is correct.  We're talking about original models here, NOT original tooling (which no longer existed).  Jerry Williams obtained existing models from persons he knew--models that were original but which had been repainted or were not in especially good shape--and then completely disassembled the models to get the various parts needed to create new tooling.  Here's one example:

I previously mentioned the Ives 1694 as being the first locomotive Jerry produced.  Late in 1971 he obtained an original 1694 from fellow train collector Lewis Johnston--one that had been repainted and thus did not have the value of the fresh-from-factory original.  Jerry stripped the model down to all its component parts.  He then sent the components out to various tool and die firms to obtain cost estimates for a run of 300 locomotives. He hired a couple of neighborhood boys to assemble the models--does the name Mike Wolf ring a bell?

The first Williams Reproductions 1694 was presented to Johnston, and the remainder of the run was offered at the 1972 TCA National Convention.  Sales exceeded expectations, and thus began the new firm. 

NO original Lionel (or other) tooling was used to create these models because that tooling was no longer available or even in existence.  Keep in mind that during World War II, every bit of unused metal was needed for the war effort, and Lionel contributed to that cause in very significant ways.  Hence, tooling not needed/used was given over to the war effort.  When Mike Wolf ventured out on his own, he purchased the tinplate tooling he needed to get started from Jerry Williams, with the financial assistance of Mike's family.  There's even a photo of a very young Mike Wolf in the Hubbard book.

I hope this information helps to clarify things a bit.

"I hope this information helps to clarify things a bit."

Alan, yes it does.  It confirms what I have always believed to be the case.  I greatly appreciate the answer, sir.