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Bill Hudson forwarded his non-functioning Depotronic and Circuitron flasher boards for me to see why they did not work with his AF signal.  (see

https://ogrforum.com/topic/af-760-crossing-flasher?page=1

After some probing around and measurements, I found the boards were functioning but just not with the AF signal.  Turns out the fault is the this particular brand of LED bulbs themselves.  The screw base bulbs are wired with their solder tip positive and brass shell negative.  For AC applications polarity won't matter, but in case of AF signal it does.

Depotronics as far as I could determine has ceased business (their website URL leads to a Chinese page), so I have taken the liberty of sketching out the schematic shown below for reference of what follows.  Because Circuitron is in business I can't show their schematic but the same no flash problem is exhibited when using this LED brand in the AF signal setup.

Bill rewired the AF signal as described in the OGR article making the signal frame and screw shells grounded, and each lamp bought out on individual wires.  Now connecting the frame to positive supply Flash Return pin 4 orients the LED cathodes to the positive terminal, and FL1 and FL2 LED anodes to their respective NPN transistor collectors.  The LEDs are thus reversed biased and cannot light!

Assuming that the AF sockets could be insulated and correctly wired to the respective terminals, a second problem crops up.  Note R12 and R13 shunting their respective NPN transistors.  With LEDs drawing little power, both simultaneously light through their resistors, including   them as an additional series current limiting resistor, ignoring the transistors turning on/off.  All that happens is LEDs flash dim/bright/dim.  Incandescent lamps, unable to draw sufficient current through the resistors, remain extinguished until shunted by the transistor. Of course, those resistors can be cut off, but I did not do this as these are not my boards. 

The Circuitron board is specifically designed for LEDs but it too has a positive supply and NPN transistors, creating the same no flash condition as Depotronics for the AF signal.

I was musing out loud that the LED bulb maker would need to specify either negative or positive bulb tip types, until my wife pointed out you only need negative tip, as bulb will work on AC as well  (wife's a smart cookie, guess all my 45+ years of electronics must have rubbed off! )

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  • Depotronics flasher schematic
Last edited by rrman
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rrman posted:
...

After some probing around and measurements, I found the boards were functioning but just not with the AF signal.  Turns out the fault is the this particular brand of LED bulbs themselves.  The screw base bulbs are wired with their solder tip positive and brass shell negative.  For AC applications polarity won't matter, but in case of AF signal it does.

But I thought he tested it with known-good incandescent bulbs and it did not work? 

BILL HUDSON posted:

Yes, I did change to incandescent bulbs (and tested them) but, again, they do not flash.

 

stan2004 posted:
rrman posted:
...

After some probing around and measurements, I found the boards were functioning but just not with the AF signal.  Turns out the fault is the this particular brand of LED bulbs themselves.  The screw base bulbs are wired with their solder tip positive and brass shell negative.  For AC applications polarity won't matter, but in case of AF signal it does.

But I thought he tested it with known-good incandescent bulbs and it did not work? 

BILL HUDSON posted:

Yes, I did change to incandescent bulbs (and tested them) but, again, they do not flash.

 

Well they flash very well on my test track.  Roll the car on and blinky-blink.  Has to be wired up exactly as Depotronics shows.

As I mentioned in a private email to RRMAN, I did test both the AF 760 and the Lionel 154 with incandescent bulbs.  Same result as before - nothing.  I tested with the #154 to see if I incorrectly rewired the # 760.  Looks like all three flasher boards are o.k., but that puts me back to square one.  I cannot find what appears to be no power getting from the flasher boards to the highway flashers.  I even unhooked the #45 Gateman to remove that from possible interference.  I am now thinking about trying a Lionel #153ir.  In another post that appears to get the most votes.  Or will that work?

Bill,

No, the Lionel #153ir as issued, will NOT  work with either flasher board.  From examining the instruction manual https://www.lionelsupport.com/...ents/71-4111-250.pdf    wiring hookup examples, it appears the controller's internal relay (I assume it is a metal contact relay, not solid state type)  common contact  is connected to the auxiliary power supply hot terminal, thus that voltage would be passed into the flasher boards, causing damage. 

Now if Lionel had "correctly" designed the controller so all the relay contacts were independent (unconnected to any voltages), then you could wire it to trigger the boards.  Of course you can use an external relay triggered by the controller that in turn activates the board, but just one more hassle.   If adventuresome, I suppose you could open up controller to isolate the relay common contact from the auxiliary supply.

BILL HUDSON posted:

I was not clear about trying the 153ir.  What I meant was to use the 153 to trigger the highway flasher without those flasher boards.

The 153 will not flash bulbs, it only provides an on function when train goes by then off after a delay when train gone.

Sent an email for package return.

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