Detailing valve gear on Williams Scale Hudson

Most if not all NYC Hudsons used Baker valve gear. You can get all of the pieces as a set from Precision Scale. PSC parts were used to repair this 3rd Rail J3a.

Pete

First, thanks for the info.  I always wondered how close that inexpensive Williams Hudson was to the 700/763 Hudsons.  How about the tender trucks - are they good repros, or just sideframes screwed to bolsters?

Rather than use fine scale PSC parts (I may have some if you want) why not get Lionel parts?  They are a bit heavier looking and would preserve the "700" look.  If you cannot get the originals, any of the recent Hudsons surely have much the same parts.

Start a topic, and you learn all sorts of things...

firstly, I notice that the K Line semi-Scale Hudson has a simplified valve gear compared to the “scale” one, which might be worth copying onto the Williams

Secondly, the Williams front end contains fittings for the “lobster claw” coupling, not the “scale” type coupler.

I’ll look at the tender trucks when I get the chance 

From various pictures, the 763e also appears to have simplified valve gear? It also lacks the valve guide on the upper rear steamchest, so perhaps that’s why the valve gear isn’t complete? 

https://m.facebook.com/njhirai...type=3&source=48

Between the simplified valve gear and see-through, plated-tyre drivers, I’d say the Williams was best regarded as a remake of the 763E rather than the 700E? That said, it also has the small front pilot wheels from the Post-War 773, presumably to accommodate O31 curves?

The thing is, the 763 castings were all 700E castings.  Changes were minimal except for that beautiful tender.  Converting a 763 to a 700 involved a new cylinder block, the valve gear, and a piping kit, which was available at least in the 1980s.  You can easily re-modify the 763 cylinder block.  The attachment points for the piping are on the 763.  Be nice to know they are also on the Williams.

All 3-rail Baker valve gear is simplified.  Good thing; all those little levers will make you nuts.

My 763s were my first attempts at 2-railing.  Superb models!  My 700 series freight cars have a place of honor on my shelves.

Found THIS which is a fascinating read..  https://ogrforum.com/...e-hudson-family-tree

It’s also worth pointing out that the Williams model comes with two different tenders, as someone stated in a recent thread - this separates the “scale” and “semi-scale” versions of the DIE-CAST Williams models, the locomotive is the same. 

This contrasts with the BRASS Williams models, in which the “semi-scale” version is a completely different, O27 size model. 

bob2 posted:

The thing is, the 763 castings were all 700E castings.  Changes were minimal except for that beautiful tender.  Converting a 763 to a 700 involved a new cylinder block, the valve gear, and a piping kit, which was available at least in the 1980s.  You can easily re-modify the 763 cylinder block.  The attachment points for the piping are on the 763.  Be nice to know they are also on the Williams.

All 3-rail Baker valve gear is simplified.  Good thing; all those little levers will make you nuts.

My 763s were my first attempts at 2-railing.  Superb models!  My 700 series freight cars have a place of honor on my shelves.

... which answers my original question, that it would be a bolt-in swap requiring cylinders and valve gear, as a set from either Lionel or PSC.

The long tender, which my one has, is a die-cast tender with cast trucks an no current collectors 

Considering your interest for scale correctness and accuracy, you might want to take a look at 2 rail.

Simon

Simon Winter posted:

Considering your interest for scale correctness and accuracy, you might want to take a look at 2 rail.

Simon

 

I do! I have an interest in 2-Rail On30, particularly the MMI 2-8-2s and associated D&RGW stock, DCC fitted .... but I just started 3-Rail, especially O27 as a diversion, it’s fun. I’m also involved with 3-rail Hornby Dublo, the comparison with Lionel etc is fascinating. 

I find the whole “scale/semi-Scale Hudson” issue particularly intriguing... if rather baffling at first. 

Rockershovel posted:

Found THIS which is a fascinating read..  https://ogrforum.com/...e-hudson-family-tree

It’s also worth pointing out that the Williams model comes with two different tenders, as someone stated in a recent thread - this separates the “scale” and “semi-scale” versions of the DIE-CAST Williams models, the locomotive is the same. 

This contrasts with the BRASS Williams models, in which the “semi-scale” version is a completely different, O27 size model. 

 

AFAIK Williams made three brass Hudsons all of which have scale dimensions, two have far less detail a J1 and a J3. The third, a J3a has excellant detail falling just short of the 3rd Rail J3a. The 027 model is die cast based on the Lionel 2046.

As for upgrading the valve gear on the Williams model, another option is to find a chassis for an MTH J1. There are a number of those floating around and it may not be that much more expensive than making it using Lionel parts. Plus it would at least come with a mount for a big Pittman motor vs the little Williams motor.

Pete

Interesting, because this Williams brass Hudson has been hanging around on U.K. eBay for a long while. I wouldn’t pay that, for a loco of that level of detail, particularly given what I paid for a Williams brass USRA Pacific, and the asking price for a Williams O27 Hudson which hung around for a long time without selling, but appears to have sold now. I wasn’t aware the O27 one was diecast, I’ve never seen one. 

If I could find an MTH Hudson, I’d certainly look hard at buying it. I’m quite impressed with the MTH Premier K4 I bought earlier in the year. 

This is a Williams diecast 027 Hudson. In the early 2000s Williams introduced their "Golden Memories" series based on Lionel Post War reproductions. They did this Hudson, a PRR Turbine and a 726 Berkshire plus the 773 Hudson with 2426 short tender. Later they offered a hudson based on the 773 with a full scale size tender and numbered for a prototypical J1.

Pete

“... based on a 773, with scale length tender, numbered as a J1” would describe my one quite well. The see-through spoked wheels are more 763, though

Rockershovel posted:

Interesting, because this Williams brass Hudson has been hanging around on U.K. eBay for a long while. I wouldn’t pay that, for a loco of that level of detail, particularly given what I paid for a Williams brass USRA Pacific, and the asking price for a Williams O27 Hudson which hung around for a long time without selling, but appears to have sold now. I wasn’t aware the O27 one was diecast, I’ve never seen one. 

 

The Williams brass Hudson had issues with the brass boiler literally falling apart so I would avoid one. I had one and a Dreyfus Hudson that fell apart. I have two of the Williams die cast scale Hudsons 5205 & 5207 that I double head and are good runners. I run mine on 054 or wider curves.

Would think that a scale K-Line Hudson would be a better choice to build upon as they are quite nice 'as-is'. They came in conventional control models as well as with TMCC and Railsounds. Two road numbers. Still considered excellent models with great detailing! Add scale pilots wheels and they are simply beautiful. These can be purchased for as little as $300 I think.

Gene H posted:

Rockershovel posted:

Interesting, because this Williams brass Hudson has been hanging around on U.K. eBay for a long while. I wouldn’t pay that, for a loco of that level of detail, particularly given what I paid for a Williams brass USRA Pacific, and the asking price for a Williams O27 Hudson which hung around for a long time without selling, but appears to have sold now. I wasn’t aware the O27 one was diecast, I’ve never seen one. 

 

The Williams brass Hudson had issues with the brass boiler literally falling apart so I would avoid one. I had one and a Dreyfus Hudson that fell apart. I have two of the Williams die cast scale Hudsons 5205 & 5207 that I double head and are good runners. I run mine on 054 or wider curves.

This is the Williams masterpiece Hudson. That and their masterpiece Dreyfuss were made by Samhongsa who also made the Lionel Smithsonian Dreyfuss. All Williams brass hudsons are not alike. They also can be had at a bargain. I paid less than $160 for one just like this.

Pete

The Masterpiece hudsons were exceptional.

I agree on the scale K Line 5344/43.  I got mine from another member for a very good price, and it is the most detailed Hudson I have seen.  It was the conventional, but I upgraded with ERR products.  The Masterpiece Dreyfuss Hudson is very detailed as well, and an excellent runner.  The cab interior and backhead are exceptional, great parts for detailing any other scale Hudson one may have.  The PS1 MTH Hudson is also very nice, now may be getting another since selling mine years ago.  I have seen them go for very little and are easily converted with ERR Command and RS.  Hmmmmmm… would be good to paint for another St Fe Hudson?Question is, with all else I have, can one have too many Hudsons?

Jesse  TCA

K-Line has a U shaped boiler and a teeny motor under the sand dome.

I took a close look at the valve gear details on the Lionel and MTH Year 2000 Gold Issue Hudsons.  The Lionel has better detailing, and if not clear enough, I need to take and post better close up of each.

Jesse   TCA

OK.. attached are close up detail pics of four of the scale Hudsons I have.  Since you are looking at detailing a Williams Hudson, perhaps check and find out whether you can acquire parts for the 5450 Dreyfuss they issued.  Also, if you need to upgrade the backhead and cab interior (not knowing what you have), look into use of the details from the same Dreyfuss made by Williams.

Jesse    TCA     

Watching the weather alerts on tv now, and with what is headed our way from the West, if the storm sirens go off tonight, may be in our shelter before long, tonight.  Love the excitement in our area, especially every Spring!  Just so long as the trains are not harmed!

Making a Mountain out of a Berk, involved new valve gear, I feel your pain!

I’d certainly be interested in a conventional control, K Line Hudson but bring in the U.K. I don’t tend to see a lot of the older locks offered on US eBay. 

Given that there is no urgency I think perhaps I’ll just wait for one to appear...

Daniel, that 4-8-2 is awesome! Is it CNR? Great work! JohnA. PS post more pics!!

I want a $300 scale K-line Hudson, please and thank you. Having been the proud owner/operator of an upgraded Williams Hudson, I applaud your efforts. Maybe I’ll improve my valve gear too. Who else has TMCC and four chuffs per revolution?

@CoolHand posted:

I want a $300 scale K-line Hudson, please and thank you. Having been the proud owner/operator of an upgraded Williams Hudson, I applaud your efforts. Maybe I’ll improve my valve gear too. Who else has TMCC and four chuffs per revolution?

3rd Rail made 3 TMCC Hudsons with 4 chuffs. The Lionel TMCC J3 can be converted to 4 chuffs with a simple cam change. Simple because the wheels are screwed on vs pressed on.

Pete

TA Studios made the electronics inside my Williams Hudson. When my father built it for me he put enough reed switches so it would chuff at the proper time in synch with the valve gear. 

That’s a very interesting photo, a rare combination of heavy weathering and stock detailing. Any such view is subjective, but comparing the pictures above, I’d feel that a weathered loco needs to be highly detailed to achieve the full effect.