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... at least not too much, for his dismissive attitude toward 3RS which is under discussion elsewhere on this board. He’s misinformed, probably by what he sees here. I myself have been watching with no comment but much amazement as what was a straightforward concept has been become confused and cluttered with diversions into established model railroading practices that are utterly irrelevant here.

First principles matter, and the fact is that the O Scale Trains publisher’s comments show that like very many 3RS Forum participants, he either is unaware of or has forgotten what the first principles of 3RS were intended to be. They don’t get the simple, equipment specific original intent of 3RS. I can say this with some authority since, for better or worse, I coined the phrase (so blame me) a few years back to describe the methodology I applied to a project for Pete Kruimer. It involved the extensive remodeling of well-made, highly detailed cars that unfortunately had been – in our opinion – very poorly configured by their manufacturer.

Without belaboring this tale which was documented on the 3 Rail Forum before this one existed, Pete really liked his newly reconfigured train and asked me how to describe the result. I suggested 3RS for 3 Rail Scale (pretentious of me, I know), since my goal had been to remake these cars as close to scale models of the real equipment as could reasonably be done by any moderately skilled hobbyist. It had nothing to do with the quality of the layout (track, landscaping, structures, etc.) on which the train was intended to run. Perhaps this is because I see myself more as a railroad modeler than a model railroader. In other words, I was and am more concerned with creating accurate 3 rail equipment models (3RS) than I am with building a beautifully landscaped and detailed 3 rail model railroad (HiRail). In any case, 3RS as originally conceived and subsequently offered for consideration here involved only the trains themselves. It was not intended to be HiRail or HiRail-on-steroids but, thanks to the unfortunate leavening effects of the Forum, that is largely what it has become.

My opinion is that 3RS is all about the 3rd rail of 3 rail discourse: standards. It ought to become a set of modeling standards that ultimately specifies certain practices such as fixed pilots, maximum coupling distances, scale coupler compatibility, correct ride heights, and others that generally have not been widely followed by the various 3 rail importers on even their best products, although there are now encouraging signs that this is changing. The goal should be to maximize the realism of certain 3 rail model trains while minimizing the effects of the engineering concessions required for 3 rail operation. Simple stuff. Any hobbyist who wants to develop and/or apply the skills and effort required ought to try, as should any importer or/manufacturer who wants to satisfy the desires of the admittedly small market segment that desires more realistic 3 rail trains.

As Pete once noted on this Forum, “3RS, of course, will evolve as a concept and, if it lasts, as a practice, and if this Forum is any indication it will go places we never envisioned. That’s fine if that’s where the majority of participants want it to go. But if it’s allowed to become an ersatz substitute for HiRail, it will just fade away.” I agree.


- Mike
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Joe G responded to that thread. The "rules" quote was taken out of context as the last "rule" was basically to not listen to what anyone else says, not even him. The whole new list of rules was in essence nothing more than sarcasm. He doesn't hate 3 rail even though he personally may prefer 2 rail. Nothing wrong with that. I prefer many things that others don't but hate none of the others.
Here's the way I see my 3-rail layout:

I have a 3-rail layout...AND...I want to make the engines and cars look like the prototype RR I model as best as I can, without having to junk everything or buy new or spend a load of $$$ doing it.

That doesn't mean throwing the track or the framework out the window. That means making a boxcar LOOK like a boxcar that Seaboard owned, that means taking a CA-1 caboose and modifying it to make it look like one of the Seaboard cabs.

It means hacking on an expensive engine so the headlight and whistle are in the correct place as per the prototype. It means doing away with the huge lobster-claw couplers so I can easily couple/uncouple each car. It means fixing the pilots so the engines don't look so dis-jointed going around a curve. Kadee couplers enable my trains to work to my satisfaction and look good while doing so.

Once I'm satisfied with the way something looks, that should be good enough, even if it's NOT what someone else expects or thinks.
Somebody copyright this stuff, quick.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with a center rail if that is what you want. OGR Magazine caters to you, and it is a fine magazine for folks who like center rail trains.

I am with Joe - if for some reason the center rail should start to bother you, 2 - rail is a viable option. You are free to keep the center rail even if it bothers you, of course.
This is why, when someone asks "what scale do you model in?" I always say... (wait for it...)

O-Scale ! Big Grin

If John Armstrong can run 1:48 O-Scale steam locomotives equipped with big, ugly, painfully obvious, outside 3rd rail pick-up shoes, I can have a 3rd rail in my track and call it "O-Scale" as well. In fact, I do, and I don't much care what anyone has to say about it. Big Grin

This forum has been extremely helpful to me, not just because of the value of our shared experiences, but the friendships as well. It also helps not to have to constantly "defend' what I'm doing from those that don't understand. They stay on the other board most of the time.

Make the models as real as you're personally willing to. That's what I'm doing. Enjoy!
- RICH
quote:
Originally posted by richtrow:


If John Armstrong can run 1:48 O-Scale steam locomotives equipped with big, ugly, painfully obvious, outside 3rd rail pick-up shoes, I can have a 3rd rail in my track and call it "O-Scale" as well. In fact, I do, and I don't much care what anyone has to say about it.

A couple of whiskers on a passing engine is far far FAR less obvious to the eye than a solid center rail all over the layout. Think about it, a 2-1/2" long pickup shoe or 300 feet of extra rail. Placing the 3rd rail outside the running rails also looks far more natural. John Armstrong and Frank Ellison were 3 rail scale modelers. Most people just didn't realize it.
I think that the biggest problem is that we all feel the need to be categorized in one form or another. That is not our fault but it is human nature to want to be apart of something...

I am now taking the stand that I am building Will's 3 rail scale hi-rail layout...hows that?

i dont care if people think I should have gone 2R or HiRail or 3RS or O gauge or whatever...I am building what I like in my house for my enjoyment...

So I will have fun and let others worry about figuring out what scale to call my layout.

I am just glad that there are all of these divisions that way I can learn about what everyone is doing and I can learn from it all.

Good Post Mike. I agree with Allan and the others above, that's why we call it  hobby. The problem comes in when people take their personal opinions to heart.

 

I really enjoy the work done in all scales and gauges, but if some may look at my layout as less then up to standard then that is fine with me. I just keep on having fun.,

 

Oh yea, see my Christmas gift post.

I looked back at all the posts and what struck me was this...

 

Just about all the comments are things that the manufacturers could fix/improve if they chose to do so.  I think the one thing holding progress back (in electronics) is the use of AC, and I believe that's only because of older equipment (prior to can motors).  At some point the manufacturers will have to move on.

Are you sure of that?  The only difference now between AC and DC in model trains is where the AC is rectified.  All the motors are DC and most of the electronics require DC to function.  Putting the rectifier in the locomotive is a bit more expensive and a lot more complicated, since reversing requires an electronic E- unit at minimum.

 

The reason ( in my opinion, please) that 3- rail track requires AC is the same reason that the center rail even exists - it is simply traditional, and hobbyists like it that way.

Originally Posted by bob2:

Are you sure of that?  The only difference now between AC and DC in model trains is where the AC is rectified.  All the motors are DC and most of the electronics require DC to function.  Putting the rectifier in the locomotive is a bit more expensive and a lot more complicated, since reversing requires an electronic E- unit at minimum.

 

The reason ( in my opinion, please) that 3- rail track requires AC is the same reason that the center rail even exists - it is simply traditional, and hobbyists like it that way.

Bob2

Correct me if i am wrong but I thought the big advantage of the third rail is that you are using a pickup roller and not a train wheel to pickup the electric power making the electrical separation of hot and common a lot simplier when constructing   the cars and locomotives.  Also three rail does not have the reverse loop problem. 

 

I am a fan of the history of railroading in the 30's to 60's and thus the 3 rail model railroad. That said, oversized couplers, middle rail, etc just don't botter me anymore since I switchedfron ho.

The third rail was more for simplicity of layout construction from an electrical standpoint. Remember, the Delta Lines and John Armstrong's layout (held sacred by 3-railer and 2-railer alike) were outside third rail running off DC.

 

The use of AC in toy train sets was because the rectifiers of the day were crude, plus AC doesn't experience the voltage drops that DC does. The old Lionel powered units used "universal" motors which would work on AC or DC (some sets used batteries back in the day.) As AC became more prevalent in homes, the use of variable step-down transformers became the norm. The use of AC to run modern trains is more of a tradition and backward-compatibility than anything else and sound systems have been built around that mode of operation -- i.e., DC offset to fire the whistle or bell.

 

There's no technical reason you couldn't run 2-rail off AC (look at American Flyer.) TMCC and DCS work perfectly well in a 2-rail context (DCC works perfectly well in a 3-rail context.) It's all about what floats your boat (so to speak.)

A couple of whiskers on a passing engine is far far FAR less obvious to the eye than a solid center rail all over the layout. Think about it, a 2-1/2" long pickup shoe or 300 feet of extra rail. Placing the 3rd rail outside the running rails also looks far more natural.

 

Fred, Please don't take this offensively, it is not meant in that way, but that is your OPINION, to ME, I grew up in Oregon where we didn't have real trains running on third rail power, outside or otherwise, and I had friends with Lionel trains (as a Kid, I had AF and HO) so to ME center third rail looks more "Natural". That and I focus more on the locomotives than I do on the track, or any other part of the rolling stock or layout, so again to ME those whiskers, and outside third rail, are far more obvious to me than they are to you. You have done some amazing work, and put I am sure untold hours into it, and I do commend what you have accomplished, we just have differing opinions, and have made differing choices in how we model, nothing at all wrong with that.

 

Doug

What I'm saying is if the engine had just a DC motor in it, you could place it on the 3-rail track, hook a DC power supply to an outer rail and to the inner rail, and make the engine move.  No need for a rectifier, no need to replace the 3-rail track with 2-rail, no need for anything else to make an engine move.

 

I bought a Weaver 4-6-0 chassis (with DC motor) from Ed Rappe last February and did just that (to see if it worked).  It ran just fine using my old Troller TransAmp 1 transformer.

 

Now having just the DC motor inside isn't going to give you any bells, whistles, lights, chuff, crew talk, etc, but those are things that could be added by buying products like those from ERR or even making them yourself.  Lights/LEDs are fairly easy to put into any loco.  Some folks even like their engines to be "lite" on electronics, going this route would satisfy that scratch.

Why not?  Nothing else interesting going on here.

 

Once again, it is my opinion that the center rail now exists because hobbyists want it to exist.  There are no longer technical arguments that outweigh the appearance issues.

 

This is only my opinion.

 

Opinion.

 

 

bob2, it would be a huge PITA to convert all the exisiting three rail locomotives to two rail use, as well as insulating the axles on all rolling stock. Reverse loops and wyes are not a problem for three rail, as they are for two rail, and a couple of insulated pins/rail joiners are much cheaper and easier to use than the power flow detecting modules that are typicaly used for detection with track signals, crossing gates or other train detecting dependant uses.

 

 To suggest a change to outside third rail INSTEAD of center third rail, that decision was made over 100 years ago by the manufacturers, particularly Lionel, who developed center rail track. Then and now, center vs outside third rail made sense, because the third rail was factory installed ready to use, and these trains were mainly targeted at kids, who were not likely going to be impressed with installing an outside third rail to play with their trains. For floor running, around the Christmas Tree, or anything OTHER than on a permanant layout using an outside third rail is nothing less than an IMMENSE HEADACHE, and compared to center third rail not much less of a headache on a permanant layout. And to some an outside third rail is just as much or more an eyesore as the center third rail is to others.

 

 To me, I don't understand why anyone who is so bothered by the center third rail, is any less bothered by an outside third rail, and doesn't just model in two rail O Scale instead.

 

 Model railroading is as much a hobby of balances and compromises, as it is of modeling trains, we each make our own choices about what we can and can not accept. Some of us have no trouble overlooking that third rail, some can accept the double articulation that allows an HO scale Big Boy to run at any speed around 18" radius curves, which in HO a 40" radius curve is the minimum that locomotive should manage, and at restricted speed to boot.

 

 If someone wants to model outside third rail, that is Great, myself, I would even enjoy seeing in person what Fred as accomplished. I have no desire to model in third rail myself, but I would still appreciate the modeling skill that goes into a well done layout, and would even be curious to see outside third rail in use. To suggest that because of advancements in technology, it is time to retire center third rail for outside or 2 rail, that is not likely to happen, 2 rail O scale is well established, and outside third users are a very small minority. Two rail O Scale and Outside third rail modelers combined are just a small fraction of the number of center third rail modelers, that is not changing any time soon.

 

Doug

Last edited by challenger3980
Originally Posted by fredswain:
Actually bob is of the opinion that battery powered radio control is the future. It is. No more track wiring or wheel insulating issues at all.

And so is JoeG. I believe, at least according to some of his posts on their forum.  I know he's done some testing lately.

 

I think battery power would be great and if I ever decided to go that route I'd try Dremeling off the center rail vice replacing all the track.  That way I could keep the 054 and 072 curves and the hi-angle wheels.  I really don't notice the wheels as much as I do the center rail and swinging pilots and those gawd awful Lobster Clause (Santa's older brother, it is the holidays after all ).

Of course there will always be people who stay on their original modeling course and there is nothing wrong with that regardless of how many rails there are. Bob and Joe do favor radio control and I have ultimately come to that conclusion as well. There were once many outside 3rd rail layouts. Now they are all but gone. Things have moved on and those modelers have literally died out. I think Bob I'd making the exact same case for 3 rail modeling. In time the only reason to retain a third rail will be tradition or nostalgia. 50 years from now O scale, assuming of course that it survives, will most likely be dominated by 2 rail battery power or 3 rail toys. I think that I'd a very valid outlook but in no way does it tell anyone today that their method is wrong.

The technology exisists to run O scale with battery/radio, but the cost would make it impracticle. Large Scale (commonly and mistakenly all grouped as "G" scale) already runs a lot of battery/radio equipment, but many of the locomotives particularly smaller ones will have a semi-permanantly attached car, typically a boxcar, trailing the locomotive to carry the batteries, as the batteries that could have the reserve capacity to power the train AND be small enough to fit in the locomotive would be cost-prohibitive, for most modelers. Battery/radio, very well could be the future for O-Scale, when the batteries with the size and output requirements are finally developed at a price point that makes it affordable to a large enough segment of the hobby to be profitable for the MFRs to produce. It will be something intresting to see.

 

Doug

You might have misunderstood my comment.  I see nothing wrong with center rail for those who like it.  And if you have to have reversing loops, maybe they outweigh any desire you might have for more realistic track. There are folks who just plain old like the looks of three rail track.

 

I am a 2- railer, and have absolutely no problem justifying my choice and 2- railing Lionel and MTH locomotives.  I do not want to convert anybody else - in fact, I personally have heartburn with Russian gauge, and make my models in 17/64 scale.  I do not try to convince others that that is the way to go.

 

My point is only that if you do not like center rails, there is no real reason to have them any more, with the possible exceptions noted by posters above - too expensive to convert, and must have balloon tracks.  I will buy those excuses from folks who do not like center rails.  I believe most 3-railers like their track.  I say good for them.

I believe most 3-railers like their track.

I concur.  If it was that big a deal then we would change over.

 

Like I kinda said earlier, at track level you can't tell there's 3 rails anyway, so everything above the track (or maybe wheel level) can/should look the same.

 

A lot of 3-rail "Toy Train" folks have smallish island loop layouts, or loop layouts on 4x8 or 5x9 platforms.  I just can't see a 2-rail O-scale layout fitting on most of these, given a lot of 3-rail "Toy Train" folks also like the biggest steam engines they can get their hands on.  I don't see many 3-rail folks running point-to-point layouts.

 

Again, if the 3rd rail was THAT big a deal folks would adjust and plan accordingly.

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