electrical questions related to 3 rail track

@JEFFREY RUCKGABER 050219 posted:

Hi all, had a visit from my brother in law this week and we were exploring why I am having issues with losing power to the track. As it turns out, it may have less to do with the electrical connections to the track but more to do with how the train reacts on the track. Some general questions:

1. What should I use to clean the track? Is isopropyl alcohol ok?

IT WILL DO. (91% iso)

2. Do I need to apply something to the track after cleaning it? He read somewhere about applying graphite to the track? If so, not sure what product to purchase nor how much to apply to the track.

Some use No Ox.  I don't.

3. I've always been pretty fastidious about cleaning the locomotive pickup rollers. My brother in law suggested that I also should clean the gunk off of the locomotive wheels. His thought was that the locomotive wheels must contact the ground rail in order to complete the circuit to make the locomotive run. Does that make sense?

Yes.  Is this every loco you put on the track?

4. Is it important, when I clean the track, to just clean the top part of the track - as that is where the electrical contact is made?

For the most part, yes

5. Finally, about how far apart should the feeder wires to the bus wires be? I currently have feeder wires every 10-12 feet. Is that ok?

Every 6 or so sections of track

I know, lots of questions. But I've been getting a bit frustrated as of late with the running of my trains and the constant stalling.

Thanks

Jeff

Also, what kind of track do you have and maybe post a photo of your layout with dimensions.  The problem may be track joints.

John

When I clean loco wheels I avoid cleaning the traction tires. Tires dry out / wear out fast enough already, another chemical can't help.

Track is Atlas O (for the most part). Some (minimal) Lionel Fastrack.

I can't do one picture - but I'm attaching several. This is very much still a work in progress. I probably have another couple of years completing the detailing/scenery. Please be nice in your editorial comments! :-)

The last attachment is a very rough scale drawing of the train platform - it shows the dimensions of that platform in feet.

Note that I've cleaned the locomotives again - including the non-traction tire wheels. I've also cleaned the tops of the power and ground rails - again. It seems to have improved the locomotive functioning. I also plan on adding a few more feeders from the track to the main bus wires.

I've looked real hard through your pictures and still can't determine what you are using for power/train control.  If you are using some sort of command control, that could also be a factor in determining intermittent power loss to an engine.

Chuck

180 watt Lionel power houses - the 3 right most are connected together to power the main lines. The one on the left powers that conventional track I have running my old Lionel trains and are connected to a Lionel TPC 400.

The older Lionel transformer on the table powers lights and switches and signals.

Lionel Legacy base runs the whole show.

Besides dirty track, I have found problems with engines and rolling stock, usually, paint or black oxide. For diesels, those with four wheel trucks with traction tires are one axle leave just the other axle to provide ground (not post war F3s GP7s, etc). Engines with only two center pickups can have problems. I pretty much only buy SDxx engines with four pickups anymore . Some time ago I posted a short video of an MTH six wheel truck were ground was passing thru the spring and arcing; I ended up taking it apart and cleaning all the paint/oxide off, works like a champ now.

A voltmeter and a caboose with an incandescent light bulb can help find problems with track; the caboose doesn't move by itself, and it draws just enough current to help expose voltage drops.

I use isopropyl alcohol to clean track. Someone typed up a long post about some other chemical, and something about polar and non-polar chemicals, and of course I can't remember the outcome. Iso is a multi-use chemical, its like using Wago connectors on your trains.

Are the 3 power supplies running the command portion of the layout connected to it’s own designated mainline ? You mentioned they were connected together.  Or does each one power a particular area and the trains go from one power supply to the next as they move around the layout ?

Are the trains slowing down, stumbling along with flickering lights or are they just coming to a dead stop and becoming unresponsive ?

Looking at the dimensions. It’s a good size layout. Nothing wrong with buss wiring. On a layout this size you probably should have at least a 12 gauge buss with 14 gauge feeders.

the three power supplies are hooked together and power the entire main line. They do not individually power certain sections of the main line.

trains sometime slow down and the lights flicker. They have also come to a dead stop and have become unresponsive.

my feeders are 16 gauge and the buss wires are 14 gauge.

Are both your outside rails electrically connected throughout the layout ?

There is only one ground feeder wire and it goes to the outside rail.

The inside rail all have rail joiners between the track sections - but no ground feeder wire.

Not sure what your running for engines. With traction tires and blind drivers or wheels. There are only one or two wheels picking up good contact with the outside rail. The newer steamers have wires going to the pilot trucks and trailing trucks just for this reason. By having both outer rails connected your getting twice as much coverage. This may be why with your cleaning of track and wheels probably helped.
When an engine does come to a complete stop. If you give it a slight wiggle. Does it power up ?

I had a Legacy 0-8-0 that frequently stalled. Mostly just coming to a stop on straight trackage. Just touch it and it would come back to life. Finally added a wire from the engines chassis to the tender chassis. I now had 8 more wheels contacting the outer rails. Problem solved.

Unless you have a plan for using the unwired outside rail for signals and such. I’d add wires and tie the outer rails together before I added more center rail drops. There are other methods to trigger signals if that’s your goal.

Now another question.

My layout is completed and ballasted (for the most part). Unfortunately, I noticed there are 2 pieces of track in which I forgot to add a rail joiner to the outside rail. Rather than taking the track up - which would be a pain and a significant mess - is there a way I can solder these 2 outside rails together? I tried applying solder to a test piece of Atlas track - but the solder does not adhere to the track. Is there a way I can tie these 2 rails together using solder? What's the technique?

Clean the living daylight out of it. Then, take a piece of wire, strip back about 3/4" and tin it. Using flux on the rail, solder the wire to one side of the gap, then the other side of the gap, and cut the excess off.

@Dave_C posted:

By having both outer rails connected your getting twice as much coverage............Unless you have a plan for using the unwired outside rail for signals and such. I’d add wires and tie the outer rails together before I added more center rail drops. There are other methods to trigger signals if that’s your goal.

Good advice Dave.

I've done this with my MTH  Realtrax with great results.

1. Late to the party, but I use these mushroom-cap brushes chucked into a Dremel to clean wheels and pick-up rollers. They are available on the bay and make quick work of it.

2. Try using an electrically conductive lubricant (like made by Bachman) to oil the pick-up rollers.

3. Definitely tie the outside rails together (Fastrack already does this).

4. Get an inexpensive digital voltmeter and test all around the track to see where there are any spots where the voltage is low. Check for good connectivity of the track sections if there are any and consider adding a feeder and then re-check with the dvm.

5. Buy a track cleaning car (I like the one from Northeast Trains in Peabody, MA) and run it once a month to keep the track clean.

thanks guys for all the responses.

Per Boilermaker1 - I just cleaned the daylights out of it - as suggested. Applied some flux to the 2 sections of track and then applied solder. It seems to be holding. If it fails later, I will use the wire stripping technique that you suggested. Assume it does not matter if it's solid core or stranded wire.

For Richie C - thanks for the info. My responses:

1. I will try brushes as you suggested.

2. I will get that lubricant.

3. I'm not sure I'll go through the connecting the outside rails together - but might entertain that later. It will require soldering a wire to the outside rail connector that currently is not connected to the buss wire. I will then tie the two outside rail wires together and connect them both to the ground buss wire. That sounds correct - yes?

4. I have a voltmeter and will do that, as suggested, if I later connect the outside rails together as mentioned in #3.

5. I have a track cleaning car that I've used very infrequently. I will endeavor to use it more frequently.

Thank goodness you guys have ideas to solve these issues. I did not want to pull my track up and fix these issues. Whew!!

Having three powerhouses hooked together is not a great idea. 30 amps on a short or derailment can melt a lot of metal and cook a lot of wires smaller than 10 gauge.

Would 2 be ok - or should I just have the 1 to run the mainline tracks?

The number of trains you want to run at one time should determine your power needs. The best way to use three power supplies is to divide the layout into three blocks, each powered by one supply. That way if you have six trains running, drawing three amps each, maybe only two would be on each power supply, and protected by a ten amp breaker. My numbers may not be actual, but I hope you can see what I mean.

I run 2 trains at a time on 2 parallel tracks - but they are both on the same buss line. My train yard/staging are also on that same buss line. So there is one buss line that serves my entire layout.

That being said, to do what your suggesting, I'd need to isolate these blocks of track by cutting the track to create the separate blocks. I'd like to not have to do that. Is there some other way to isolate the blocks rather than cutting into the track?

A little late to this, but just some thoughts. 10-12 foot drops on the inside rail may be too few, 5-6 feet might be better (IMO ...note there is no science to this, the track quality has a lot to do with how many you need, too).  One other note, people tend to focus on the 'hot' connection (middle rail) and forget the ground side (outer rail or rails). On tinplate track the two outer rails were tied together by the metal ties, and that gave alternate ground paths.With modern track with non metal ties that isn't true. The way I wire (or rather will will), will be to have a ground connection on the same section f track where my 'hot' drops are, and I will also tie the outer rails together at that location. It may be a bit of overkill to do this, but I have used this helping other people and it seemed to work well.

Jeffrey,

As long as you run only two trains, one on each loop, separate your Powerhouses, one to loop 1 and one to your second loop. The Powerhouse is rated at 10 amps more than enough for one train each. No need to cut track.

Ray

thanks bigkid

My plan to address all of these issues is to first find sections of track in which the power drops by using a voltmeter - one lead to the center rail and the other lead to each of the outer rails. So far, I've found several spots on my layout where one of the outer rails was not completing the circuit. I've started to solder a wire between the two pieces of track at those points. That seems to do the trick.

The second step will be to connect the outside rails together where I currently have connections for the hot and ground rails.

Reply to Ray.

I can't do what you are suggesting. All of the track is hooked together. I'm also able to run a train from one loop to the other. That being said, I will need to cut track in order to separate the loops.

Jeffrey,

I just took a look at your series of pictures, you have quite an extensive layout, very nice. I will make a few suggestions if I may. A couple of posters have mentioned adding additional power feeders, on my layout my feeders are about every 6 feet. As far as separating your power I would separate at your crossovers. My S gauge layout has two mains and they are isolated at both of the crossovers. This will also give you help in case one of your rack sections would develope a short circuit, inside loop separate from outside.

As mentioned I have two separate loops, my track is all comprised of 50 to70 year old Gilbert American Flyer track. I have found that cleaning of the tracks important, tried a number of commercial track cleaning products, tried isopropyl alcohol both 70 and 91 percent. What has worked absolutely the best for me has been low odor mineral spirits, I apply with a track cleaning car equiped with felt pads and a second similar car behind with dry pads. This has almost entirely eliminated any sparks coming from the wheels on the locomotives and with regular running very little additional track cleaning needed.

Ray

Thanks Ray,

I'll probably start by connecting both outside rails to the ground buss. And then I'll add more feeders.

As far as separating the loops - I can't quite figure out how to do that - given my layout. I'll have to cogitate on that a bit more.

I have a car that has an abrasive "brush" on the bottom, that I've used from time to time. This car is pretty heavy, so it presses well against the track. I will also use that.

As far as the low odor mineral spirits - I have only 2 small windows in my basement, which is where I have my layout. Even low odor is going to stink up the entire house. I'll have to stick with the 91 isopropyl alcohol for now.

This may sound a bit sacrilegious to some, but I don't really run the trains very often. I prefer to do the scenery, etc. In my prior layout (in my prior house), I had done a lot of mountains, etc. using screening and hydrocal. I also used foam insulation in layers to create mountains and other structures. The staining and dyeing of the things I built really gets my creating juices flowing. More so than actually running the trains. I tried to reuse that old scenery - and have been somewhat successful. As I continue, I plan on adding much more scenery, etc. That's another few years worth of work. I just hope we don't move any time soon - again!

Appreciate everyone's advice here.

If you are only running two trains, then one ten amp powerhouse should suffice, if you are not running older motor engines and or long passenger trains with incandescent lighting. You don’t need more power just because the layout is large, which is a common misconception. You just need proper wire size and excellent connections. As for isolating blocks without cutting track, about the only other way is to remove the center track pins.

@JEFFREY RUCKGABER 050219 posted:

There is only one ground feeder wire and it goes to the outside rail.

The inside rail all have rail joiners between the track sections - but no ground feeder wire.

THIS Right here is your problem when you run feeder wires you need BOTH AC Hot and AC neutral (ground). If you simply alternate witch outside rail you use then that accomplishes connection the outside rails together

Wiring the outside rails together at intervals would essentially connect them to the single buss.

To zhubl:

Ok - perhaps I was not clear. There are rail joiners on all the rails - for both center and the two outside rails. Right now, only one of the outside rails is connected to the ground buss wire. I intend on connecting both outside rails to the ground buss wire. The center rail is not an issue.

Does that make sense? I'm not sure I followed your response.

To John H:

Yes - that is what I intend on doing - connecting both outside rails to the ground buss wire.

https://ogrforum.com/...2#162194228206425282

To John H:

Related to your reply noted in the link above - I believe I was able to determine how to isolate things on my layout. I'll need to cut the track in 3 places. I will then have 1 powerhouse to power my staging, another to power what I call track 1 and the third powerhouse to power what I call track 2.

It will take a bit of work as I'll also need to run multiple buss wires through my layout. But what the heck - I might was well get this done properly.

I just wish I knew all of this stuff before I started my layout. Whatever - it will get fixed!

Thanks,

Jeff

Actually, there was one other thing to which anyone can respond. I notice on the center rail of the Atlas O track, there appears to be a black coating of some type on that rail. I don't know if it's paint - but it is certainly something related to the manufacture process. I can remove it with the equivalent of a pencil eraser. Any thoughts about whether that is a good idea to help with connectivity?

@JEFFREY RUCKGABER 050219 posted:

To zhubl:

Ok - perhaps I was not clear. There are rail joiners on all the rails - for both center and the two outside rails. Right now, only one of the outside rails is connected to the ground buss wire. I intend on connecting both outside rails to the ground buss wire. The center rail is not an issue.

Does that make sense? I'm not sure I followed your response.

Makes more sense. I apologize I thought there was only one ground connection for the whole layout, from your last response 😅

Sorry guys - one more thing. In order to isolate track as mentioned in these posts, do I need to cut all 3 rails or just the center rail?

Just the center rail.

With the negative side you can run separate wires from the negative buss to each of the outside rails, but you don't have to. If you solder a wire between the outside rails at every location you have a negative drop, it will do the same thing. I would recommend doing this at the same location you do the hot drops (as others have said, every 5-6' roughly). It might seem overkill, but having a good ground on both rails can cure a lot of ills. Engines are ground to both sides, so if both outer rails go back to ground regularly, you are assured of a good ground. If for some reason one of the outer rails is dirty with poor connection, the other side will handle the ground. One of the most basic mistakes with electricity is assuming that somehow the 'hot' side is more important than the return side, both need to be good to perform well. By tying the outer rails together at each negative drop point, you are making sure there is a good path. Among other things, mitigates losses due to track connections

@JEFFREY RUCKGABER 050219 posted:

Hi all, had a visit from my brother in law this week and we were exploring why I am having issues with losing power to the track. As it turns out, it may have less to do with the electrical connections to the track but more to do with how the train reacts on the track. Some general questions:

1. What should I use to clean the track? Is isopropyl alcohol ok?

Jeff - Joe Fugate (MRH Mag) had a discussion with a chemist who was knowledgeable in electrical contacts. The chemists said the best electrical contact cleaner would be a non-polar solvent. Tame a look at the attached chart. Isopropyl alcohol is a polar solvent however mineral spirits is non-polar. I use mineral spirits to clean my track. I'm sorry I don't have the second page.

What ever solvent you decide on always make sure the track is completely dry before running trains. A club I used to belong to before I moved set up a cleaning car but they had a locomotive push it instead of pulling it. There was a wheel spark from the locomotive and a small fire.

Hi All...

I was able to locate the entire article that @Joe Fauty referenced above. Screenshots of the article are included below. Also, here's the link to where I found the article:

https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws...ne/index.html?page=9