Excited until I opened the box Lionel ES44AC

Why not send it back and get one tat is complete?

Send it back to Lionel?

I think I would discuss the matter with Mr. Muffin, and see what he suggests.  They may make it right or tell you to send it to lionel.  You should get what you paid for an not have to accept the engine in this condition

Re-mount the MU hose (that's what it is) with some CA ("Super Glue"), I would think.

Unfortunately, it looks as if the wind-deflectors are simply missing, here and there; note one still there is leaning. It appears that the deflector mount is missing in one location, too (there's a hole?). These would be easy to re-attach if you had them; too bad. If this were used or a not-expensive loco, I'd just tidy up, the hole and the leaning deflector and go about my business, or fiddle a new styrene part or two (actually, as I am a basher anyway, I'd probably do this and save myself the warranty back-and-forth - and enjoy the loco; this may not appeal to you).

Parts from similar locos (same body/cab) may be available on the Lionel website; I get parts there all the time. Could be the way to go.

Annoying as heck, for sure. See? When we steam guys go off the reservation... 

Send it back to Mr. Muffin. Im sure he would take care of you

I sent Steve (from mr.muffins train) an e-mail last night showing him the photos of the detached MU hose and the missing Windows. Regarding the MU hose he suggested CA glue. I then sent him another email about the missing Windows. I told him if I can't find them in the packaging I will have to call Lionel to see if the have replacements didn't know what else to do. His reply was "Frustrating. I hope they have them. They might be inside." It doesn't sound like he wants to help in this matter. I called Lionel C/S. Explained to them what happened. They asked me to e-mail them the photos. Still waiting for a reply. 

It's annoying that I have to deal with this. 

I'm guessing " maybe" Mr. Muffin doesnt have extra stock to swap that loco for another. I think many dealers probably want folks to take quality issues up with Lionels warranty dept.  Otherwise they have to send the loco back themselves, its not their fault.

The easiest and cheapest solution ( you'll get stuck with return shipping and risk more damage to Lionel and back) would be if Lionel is able to send you the parts, provided they're not a big deal to reinstall.

Jason, man I had the same exact orange hose issue when I opened my Golden Swoosh. I ended up using super glue gel to fix the issue it was very stiff after. The trouble to send it back to the hobby shop or Lionel would cost me more then the part itself. It was a little disappointing too. I'm not too sure if it was the way it was packaged or the way it was shipped around to the end point.

On a side note. I didn't notice the window issue, but I noticed a little black panel came off on mine and I have no idea where that belongs because I can't find a hole or missing spot.

I would try to repair it myself.

Thanks guys for all the feedback. The way I look at it, it's the luck of the draw. I have a vision line reefer that won't play sound after going through 3 repair attempts. Im happy to say Lionel has agreed to replace the unit when the new batch of reefers arrive. 

I am going to wait and see what Lionel CS says regarding the missing windows and broke hose line before I attempt to repair anything. Both repairs seem fairly easy. Especially since I know you can use CA. I just hope Lionel has replacement windows. 

Jason, joined the club this just happened to me with a new set of SPD Sharks.  I sent them back and Lionel sent me another set about a week after they received mine. I had two rails broken and a broken knocked out window. I am pretty sure will give you a RMA number. I got one no questions asked.  

Jason Cvitanich posted:

I sent Steve (from mr.muffins train) an e-mail last night showing him the photos of the detached MU hose and the missing Windows. Regarding the MU hose he suggested CA glue. I then sent him another email about the missing Windows. I told him if I can't find them in the packaging I will have to call Lionel to see if the have replacements didn't know what else to do. His reply was "Frustrating. I hope they have them. They might be inside." It doesn't sound like he wants to help in this matter. I called Lionel C/S. Explained to them what happened. They asked me to e-mail them the photos. Still waiting for a reply. 

It's annoying that I have to deal with this. 

Very frustrating indeed.  I understand things get bounced around in shipping but it appears as some parts are missing.  I'm sorry but the response of " Frustrating. I hope they have them.  They might be inside" is ridiculous.  I would be sending it back for a refund.

Actually use the attached link for Lionel contact us.

http://www.lionel.com/contact

They are super on service and will send missing parts that you need.

I have noticed that there service has stepped up a bit on new repair items.

I suggest you call and talk to Steve. Don't use e-mail. I'm sure he will make it right.

I got that same engine from Charles Ro...and mine had identical damage when it arrived.  I glued the MU hose with super glue and I haven't had a problem since.  There were also some other detail pieces on the front pilot that needed attention.  But with a little glue, none of the damage is noticeable.  I'm now curious is anyone else had similar damage to the new BNSF ES44's  

I'm sure Lionel service will take care of you.  It just might take a day or so for them to decide the proper course of action (sending you parts or you sending the engine in).  In my short time in the hobby, I've heard and experienced all good things from them.

Send it back, no need to acept a damaged product.

I had the same issue with my BNSF, in addition tosome scrape marks on the roof.

When I spoke to Lionel, they asked I call the the beginning of February when parts were in stock.

As far as swapping/exchanging, the BNSF model in particular seems to be in short supply. When I called Nassau Hobby (where I bought it), they told me they wouldn't have another one and I had to take it up with Lionel.

I had some of same issues including, on one engine,  a loose engineer floating floating around inside. I glued the hoses back on, fished the windows out of the engine and reinstalled them. On one engine I got warranty to send me a couple of missing windows...I think that was on a Genset. I can honestly say that half of what I buy new has some issue...oh yeah, an mu step laying in the box with broken hinges.

It might be a good idea in the future for Lionel or any manufacturer of scale locomotives to ship detail parts unattached and in a parts bag for the user to install. Afterall, it's model  railroading and you should have some modeling skills. However, replacing broken/missing parts on a $650 engine should not be among them.

I've had similar things with Atlas O engines as well. Delicate detail parts coming loose during passage across the Pacific Ocean. MU hoses are no big deal. Sometimes with some engines they even come separately for installation by the purchaser. I've had windows out as well, more than once. Your missing panes may be inside the cab. It's not too hard to reattach them; easier, of course, if you remove the cab. That's normally not too difficult. I do that regularly in order to put something under the crew members butts so they're not riding so low.

Based on the responses here it sounds like Lionel might need to step up QC. I usually order everything online, now I can see how nice it would be to have a local train shop so you can examine the items before purchase. Unfortunately I don't have one in my area. Maybe have an option for the online stores to open the box before they ship it. But what's the fun in that, I want to be the first person to see my new engine.

CATNAP

I agree with you it is a hobby so you should be able to glue the parts into place. If I remember correctly LGB did that with a lot of their items. However once you glued them into place and wanted to box them back up they ended up breaking off during the re-boxing. I guess there is no simple answer.

bigdodgetrain got his intact and he said he loved it regardless on where the headlights were placed.

Jason Cvitanich posted:

....Maybe have an option for the online stores to open the box before they ship it. But what's the fun in that, I want to be the first person to see my new engine.

Well, except for:

You folks have to stop drinking the kool aid. You already are paying a premium for the name and color box (Jerry Calabrese's own words) and you still are going to fix a brand new item yourselves??? No wonder prices keep rising...customers are brainwashed. It doesn't matter who the manufacturer is, new items less than perfect should not be acceptable. End rant.

-Greg

Out of the 5 engines I've bought in the past year all new Lionel.   Only 1 was without issue out of the box.  Lionel seems to have some issues with packing no question.   

I don't want to turn this into yet another MTH vs. Lionel debate (YAMvLD) but I can assure you that the QC issues aren't limited to the orange boxes.   Two of my last four purchases had to go back to MTH out of the box.   My dealer/LHS took care of it for me.  No idea when I'll get them back, but I'm to the point now that I need to see it run before I hand over the cash.   These were 'yellow boxes' (Railking Imperial) - the two purple boxes (Premier) have been solid so far.   I drove two hours to buy my Premier AC400, and I'm glad I did 

Not limited to orange boxes - that much is certain.  

Perfection is not possible, regardless of price.

Stuff happens, especially with fine details.  Fix it and get on with running it.  the first time it derails, the damage will likely be worse.

basically this is what your going to get when you consider it has to be shipped from the far east, then truck/railed to where ever then broke out of it's containers and probably tossed again then the local shippers toss them how many times a lot of this could of been eliminated with it being done in the US but probably according to Lionel and the rest the cost would of made it so expensive well you ask me all I have seen is the prices sky rocketing ever since but that's another subject this is the main reason it's rare I will buy anything new. I rather buy used. Then I can get the discount of not being perfect. 

Greg Houser posted:

...... new items less than perfect should not be acceptable. 

 

My wife wasn't aware of that when I proposed. 

I think Palallin is on the right track. New items that are perfect, including model trains, are fairly rare. It's often easier to just fix the small stuff and go on. Who knows if the replacement will be any better?

OMG - Timmy Lewis - you might fix it yourself, BUT - you would need the missing parts as does the forum  member - think before you print!

The MU hose was off on mine as well, I just glued it back on.  Everything else is good. A few years ago I purchased 14 of the Union Pacific mechanical reefer cars, all but two had issues of loose pieces and one had missing lettering.  

Joe

I think Palallin is on the right track. New items that are perfect, including model trains, are fairly rare. It's often easier to just fix the small stuff and go on. Who knows if the replacement will be any better?

To me this line of thinking is unbelievable. Today's trains are certainly premium priced, I could not imagine accepting defective / damaged merchandise as new.

So sorry to hear your new engine arrived with defects.  From experience, it's a real downer, and annoying.  Have to say that it continues to amaze me that many product dealers don't understand the meaning of customer service.  If I buy a defective part at the local hardware store, they don't tell me to take it up with the manufacturer.  They either replace it on the spot or, if out of stock, do the legwork of getting me the part. Defective shirt goes back to Macys - with their apologies and desire to make it right - not Geoffrey Beene corporate offices.  Thanks for the heads-up on Mr. Muffin and good luck getting a satisfactory remedy. 

Peter 

Question on above post about premier vs. Railing quality. Are all Mth steam engines made in Korea and all rail king engines in china. personally all my Korean made products have been very good quality.

PJB posted:

So sorry to hear your new engine arrived with defects.  From experience, it's a real downer, and annoying.  Have to say that it continues to amaze me that many product dealers don't understand the meaning of customer service.  If I buy a defective part at the local hardware store, they don't tell me to take it up with the manufacturer.  They either replace it on the spot or, if out of stock, do the legwork of getting me the part. Defective shirt goes back Macys - with their apologies and desire to make it right - not Geoffrey Beene corporate offices.  Thanks for the heads-up and good luck getting a satisfactory remedy. 

Peter 

This is spot on. Don't care what color box it comes in.

Never dealt with muffin.  But when this happened to me with Model Train Stuff AKA MB Klein, they took care of it themselves. No questions asked.

I suggest you consider canopy glue for windows, not CA.  CA will cloud the windows, I use the Tester's Clear Parts Cement for Windows.

I agree with GRJ.  My Lionel subway cars came with more windows out than in.  Testers clear worked like an absolute charm.  Just take care to use something other than your fingers to perform repair or you could create permanent fingerprint imprints.  

I had the same issue from the exact same unit from Charlie Ro in relationship to the hoses. I just used a small drop of CA glue. No problems. Can't even tell it was 're glued. A little better packing would have helped. Be patient when gluing as there are 2 little marks you need to hit with the ends of the house.

As far as the Windows, I need to un pack it again. My KCS ES44 has Windows on both sides. They might actually have fallen off and are inside the engine.

Kevin

I called Lionel it is easier to glue it. They are willing to take it back = if you want see if Steve will send out a replacement but that unit is in short supply.

If your handy - do it yourself.

Seem like an epidemic issue for Lionel to address .

Kevin

These are under warranty. Register the unit. Call Lionel and ask for a RMA.  Lionel usually sends a prepaid UPS label on theses events

I had bought 2 of the ES44AC's from CHARLES RO, the RI and The SF both run great but the MU hoses one on the front of the RI and one on the rear of the SF were broken.  A little glue did the fix.  If you want the detailed parts you must put up with fragility.  That's why they make glue I guess?  Anyway I'm happy with these great running engines.

When you guys say use CA are you guys using plasti-zap? I build balsa airplanes so I have a lot of CA laying around but when I went to my hobby store they said if I'm glueing plastic you need plasti-zap. 

As for the Windows they aren't in the cab. Luckily you don't need to glue them into place. Looks like they just swivel on the mount.  Hopefully I will hear something from Lionel on Monday about the Windows.

How annoying! It might be worth a re-check of all the wrapping paper, just in case. Often small parts get loose and wind up getting "lost" in the paperwork. Otherwise I would contact Lionel for a replacement (as suggested above), which is likely a simple snap-in process. That avoids all the shipping hassle and you can enjoy that fine engine meanwhile.

The MU hose on the front of these ES44ACs have been problematic.  We all love these separately applied details and I am pretty certain they, for the most part, are attached properly while they are being made.  The difficulty is that they don't make it that way to our front porch in that same condition.  China is a long ways away and not just a simply ferry ride.  They go from box to case, case to pallet, pallet to container, container to truck, truck to ship and then the reverse.  Add in home delivery and our wonderful, expensive locomotives have gone for quite the rough ride. 

My thinking is that Lionel needs to put more engineering effort into the packaging.  Many of my diesels arrive with the ability to move slightly front to back inside the white styrofoam bedding.  Tuck them in a little tighter and I'll bet we see less of these problems.

To be sure, the more practical solution for many is to try to fix it yourself. But that does not mean it's not right to be upset by this. These engines are quite expensive (with the MSRP having leapt $100 in one year for the exact same model), and with that sort of price comes corresponding responsibility. 

That these engines get shipped across the world is no excuse. The manufacturers/importers are well aware of the risks of this business model and need to pack and inspect accordingly. That so many people report similar problems seems to be a clear sign that Lionel is cutting corners at the customer's expense.  

Personally, I too would just fix it, given the risk and cost of sending it back. But I'd also be particularly cautious about future purchases. If you pay a top price, you deserve a top product. 

I used a product from BSI (Bob Smith industries) called Maxi-Cure. It is extra thick, dries in 10-25 seconds and is for plastics and wood. Comes in a 1oz bottle. redish / pinkish label.  Might have on the label Cyanoacrylate.

I use this for everything. My local hobby shop carries it. Not to expensive. I put a drop on each end of the hose and held it in place with needle nose pliers. I could of made the job easier by simply twisting the truck, removing it, re glue then re install. The needle nose plier operation worked well.

I would get this BSI Mai-Cure, use a small pin to apply the glue then hold it in place.  

Lionel doesn't care and neither do the dealers....got it. 

Count me as another ES44AC with a detached MU hose. Mine was laying in the box. I will glue it back myself. I try to avoid sending locomotives back to Lionel unless I can't fix it myself, for fear of more shipping damage. Seems like quality control and adequate packing need a lot more effort from Lionel. Another quality control example was when I opened my Vision Line Big Boy. In the bottom of the box loose was one of my collector assemblies. Apparently the person responsible for attaching this had the wrong size screw, it was too short. Instead of getting the proper size screw they chose to leave the assembly unattached and loose in the box. This made my Big Boy unable to run right out of the box because of a $.10 screw. I took a screw off my JLC Big Boy to get the Vision Line Big Boy running and will ask Lionel for another screw. Even the Vision Line Big Boy had quality control issues.

C W Burfle posted:

I think Palallin is on the right track. New items that are perfect, including model trains, are fairly rare. It's often easier to just fix the small stuff and go on. Who knows if the replacement will be any better?

To me this line of thinking is unbelievable. Today's trains are certainly premium priced, I could not imagine accepting defective / damaged merchandise as new.

If the part that's broken off is a small detail part, that seems to be fairly commonplace....at least, I see it all the time. If it's a matter of just gluing something back in place, it's certainly less hassle than returning the item and waiting for a replacement. I've experienced situations where the replacement had problems as well. Going back decades, I've seen many, many engines new in the box from all manufacturers with small parts problems. To me, cosmetic issues are unacceptable, but as to little parts the come off and can be fixed, while it's irritating, it's a common enough problem that it's better to just accept it and fix it.

Of course, if it's a major part that's broken, or an internal problem with operation, that's obviously different, and it needs to be resolved by the manufacturer or dealer. 

Believe me - manufacturers care.

Mine came same way out of the box at Chicagoland hobby  so they sent it back to Lionel. I got news that Lionel received it yesterday 

.

So much for Mr Muffin.

The hose is part of the truck casting. CA glue may work but why not send it back for a perfect truck assembly.

These hoses should have been designed as pop in pieces with  coller castings.

AlanRail posted:

The hose is part of the truck casting. CA glue may work but why not send it back for a perfect truck assembly.

These hoses should have been designed as pop in pieces with  coller castings.

I was thinking about sending it in but I don't want to pay for shipping and I feel that something else is going to break sending it to and from Lionel. The hose piece doesn't bother me as much as the missing windows. I feel that this engine should have never left the factory. 

gunrunnerjohn posted:

I suggest you consider canopy glue for windows, not CA.  CA will cloud the windows, I use the Tester's Clear Parts Cement for Windows.

I got some of that at the hobby store...airplane guys use it.

You guys got me all nervous and had to go pull mine out and double check. Everything is A-OK. Bought mine from Pat's Trains. 

That may be kind of harsh. People have a life beyond reading the OGR forum...maybe not me. And also it's kind of hard to get jumped on and feel comfortable to jump in. After all, I got answers like "loosen the screws" from the manufacturer.

I think what we are seeing is an evolution of the Lionel hobby, and other manufacturers for sure, where the product is complex, highly detailed, and expensive to be sending the stuff around the country to fix something minor. If someone is unable to fix it, then Lionel has never failed to help as far as my experience goes. If the dealer can suggest a fix and the buyer is able, it's the most efficient solution. I see something like a 10% margin for the dealers selling at street price, and Mr. Muffin I don't think has the top deal some of the bigger dealers have. It's nice to have a local shop...

My dad and I collected Lionel post war trains back in the early 1970s. I got back into the 3-rail hobby a few months ago. I love the fact there are now several manufacturers offering highly-detailed trains for us to empty our bank accounts on.  On the downside, 90% of what I have now has been purchased through mail order, and I can say that 40% of the merchandise I received has been damaged in some way from shipping. I've had a couple of engines that were obviously dropped. And there is almost always a loose plastic part or two that falls out of the packaging.

I now have an unpacking ritual. I open any item from their factory boxes over a white towel or sheet so that any parts that fall out are easier to see and won't get lost. I then have a tube of super glue handy to re-attach any wayward parts. I'll also take the shell off of a new engine to make sure everything is attached and sorted inside.  This is especially true if there's any exterior damage visible to the engine. After everything is reassembled and oiled, I take it to my test layout for a spin.  So far, I haven't had anything I couldn't repair myself.

I haven't had to deal with Lionel yet, but MTH doesn't seem to stock any parts beyond a few things common to their whole product line (e.g. trucks, light bulbs, etc.). It's frustrating, but I'd rather do the quick repairs I've had to make myself than spend weeks/months trying to get minor stuff fixed through the RMA process only to find the parts needed or an entire replacement is not available.

Forget the sample tube of smoke fluid. Include a tube of superglue instead--much more practical if you ask me.  

Jason Cvitanich posted:

The hose piece doesn't bother me as much as the missing windows. I feel that this engine should have never left the factory. 

Chances are it was fine when it left the factory, you see.   

Don sounds like an old school model railroader adapting to today's environment.  It used to be a 'tinkerers hobby'.  When it got past that, (gets past that), it's no longer a hobby, it's a hassle. 

Expensive items like these do go through QA. I am positive Lionel will issue a RMA to fix, repair or replace. It is in the warranty. Yes, we as consumers we should not have to send it back. Dealers are part of the distribution channel. These are BTO so let's let Steve work with this. He may not have any of these left. Searching the Internet to day and I was not able to find a BNSF ES44's. Lionel will stand behind the product. 

Other than Atlas O _ who has parts, you will get it back in under a week. I had an engine in MTH for 9 months and the only reason it got repaired was because I hounded them for a date, which they missed. 10 month turn around - that doesn't happen at Lionel.

QA might need an upgrade given the prices but the more detailed hand applied parts sometimes things happen. Maybe better packing would work.

K

I'm not a tinkerer. It feels more like the price we pay for having highly-detailed trains manufactured overseas and shipped here.  I've built several custom, water-cooled computers that I've overclocked the daylights out of (frying expensive parts a few times), before I got back into trains. Because of that, I've already been acclimated to the we-don't-have-any-spare-parts-because-everything-is-made-in-asia-now problem with suppliers of high-end computer parts. If it ever does become too much of a hassle, then I'll have to re-evaluate things. So far, I've had a lot of fun running trains down on the San Diego 3-Railers layout and interacting with visitors to the model railroad museum. Makes it all worth it.

Man !!  What a hassle. When I was in to On3 I don't remember all these problems. Then most stuff was coming from Korea. The hobby is supposed to be fun and enjoyable not a blood pressure increaser.