Now you've blown their cover Dan - You guessed it, yes they do transport gold bars for the US Treasury Dept!
Rusty Traque posted:TheRWBYRailfan posted:With all the news on the disposition of the units, im actually kinda curious on the units origins if they have anything. To be honest I've never looked it up myself and Im curious if anyone knows how they all started. Were they SOU units? N&W? or something completely different?
The N&W never owned any F-units. The OCS A units are ex-B&O, the two B's are ex CGW. They went through several owners before arriving on the NS.
Here's the gory details:
http://trn.trains.com/news/new...enumber-executive-fs
Rusty
Do the F units inherited from the Wabash merger count? I know a few went to CNJ on lease in the 60's in N&W paint.
GG1 4877 posted:Rusty Traque posted:TheRWBYRailfan posted:With all the news on the disposition of the units, im actually kinda curious on the units origins if they have anything. To be honest I've never looked it up myself and Im curious if anyone knows how they all started. Were they SOU units? N&W? or something completely different?
The N&W never owned any F-units. The OCS A units are ex-B&O, the two B's are ex CGW. They went through several owners before arriving on the NS.
Here's the gory details:
http://trn.trains.com/news/new...enumber-executive-fs
Rusty
Do the F units inherited from the Wabash merger count? I know a few went to CNJ on lease in the 60's in N&W paint.
Only as second-hand. Same for the ex-Wabash E-units.
Rusty
TheRWBYRailfan posted:With all the news on the disposition of the units, im actually kinda curious on the units origins if they have anything. To be honest I've never looked it up myself and Im curious if anyone knows how they all started. Were they SOU units? N&W? or something completely different?
The Altoona works website lists the history of the units, their rebuild was fairly well documented in the railfan community.
I think it is a case of NS getting rid of anything that costs money and doesn’t contribute to the bottom line. They already stopped hosting steam excursions, which is why 611 has to go to museums and tourist railroads now to show off for the public. I never thought in my wildest dreams that it would go to Strasburg, though. I’m glad I rode two 765 excursions in PA and a 611 excursion in northern Virginia because they will probably never happen again. NS has sort of returned to its anti steam and excursion self like 1995 and up. The F’s were probably a money pit. Wick was the only reason the F’s, heritage units, and steam excursions happened. Squires is not Moorman. He is more like David Goode.
NHVRYGray posted:Traffic downturn and traffic runoffs due to PSR!!!
American Railroads Are Already in Recession With No End in Sight
Thomas Black, Bloomberg News
Oct 7, 2019
A CSX Corp. freight train passes through Oakland, Kentucky, U.S., on Thursday, Oct. 12, 2017. CSX is scheduled to release earnings figures on Oct. 17. Photographer: Luke Sharrett/Bloomberg , Bloomberg
(Bloomberg) -- This year’s railroad slump is getting worse as a slowdown in manufacturing threatens broader weakness in the U.S. economy.
There’s no bottom in sight as the decline in carloads for large U.S. railroads widened to 5.5% in the third quarter, the biggest drop in three years, according to weekly reports from the Association of American Railroads. Shipments are down for autos, coal, grain, chemicals and consumer goods, with crude oil the only bright spot.
The rail downturn underscores the damage from the U.S.-China trade war, which is making shippers more cautious and crimping freight -- validating earlier warnings from railroad executives. Companies that stocked up on inventory last year amid President Donald Trump’s tariff threats are now working it off. Adding to the cargo drop, a brief rise in coal exports has fizzled and bad weather has delayed crop harvests and dragged down grain carloads.
“What’s quite clear is that we’re not yet at a trough. Trains have not yet bottomed,” said Ben Hartford, an analyst with Robert W. Baird & Co. “We need to have some clarity in trade policy.”
While a railroad recession doesn’t necessarily presage a broader slump, it’s a dramatic turn from a year ago when rising shipments of autos, coal, lumber, chemicals and other commodities spurred U.S. rail carloads to rise 3.6% in 2018. Last year’s hot freight market jacked up trucking prices, and transportation costs spiked for companies including General Mills Inc. and Procter & Gamble Co.
‘No Pockets’
Now, “there are no pockets of growth,” said Bloomberg Intelligence analyst Lee Klaskow, who sounded the alarm about a “railroad recession” in a recent report. “There’s really nothing that’s tapping me on the shoulder saying, ‘Hey look at me. I’m going to be your next growth engine.’”
A rail recession isn’t necessarily a harbinger of a general economic downturn, Klaskow said. The U.S. economy continued to expand when carloads fell 2.1% in 2015 and 4.5% in 2016, after a crude-by-rail boom went bust.
Investors are partially insulated from the recent drop because earnings are holding up at the four large publicly traded railroads in the U.S., which have adopted an efficiency strategy developed by Hunter Harrison. The industry guru died in 2017 after overhauling CSX Corp. with his “precision scheduled railroading” approach.
CSX is the only major U.S. railroad that is poised to see earnings drop in the third quarter from a year earlier. Increases are expected at Union Pacific Corp., Norfolk Southern Corp. and Kansas City Southern, which adopted the efficiency techniques after CSX and are still reaping the rewards. That’s shoring up the railroads’ shares, although only Kansas City Southern is outperforming a Standard & Poor’s index of U.S. industrial companies.
Factory Slump
Cargo volumes have held up better at Canadian Pacific Railway Ltd. and Canadian National Railway Co., as more maritime cargo from Asia shifts to Canadian ports. But in the U.S., sagging freight shipments are taking a toll.
The Institute for Supply Management’s factory index slipped to 47.8 in September, the lowest since June 2009. It was also the second straight month the index was below 50, which signals contraction.
Truckers are also feeling the pain. Less-than-truckload cargo, which tends to be tied to industrial production, plummeted 12% in August from a year earlier. Freight carried by long-haul trucking is still growing as consumer spending holds up. Truck cargo prices, though, have dropped.
Cheaper trucking rates are pulling some freight from rails. But even if that trend moderates next year and the decline in rail carloads slows, there’s no guarantee of growth -- especially if the factory weakness drags down consumer spending.
“That’s the risk at this point in time, that the consumer does begin to show impacts from the pain that we see on the manufacturing side,” Hartford said. As for rail freight, “when is it going to turn? I honestly have no idea.”
Class One Railroads: How Did Things Get So Bad?
On May 22nd and May 23rd, the Surface Transportation Board (STB) held an Oversight Hearing on Demurrage and Accessorial Charges. Railroad customers objected to escalating fines across the country's seven Class I carriers and referred to monopolistic, unfair, illogical, and arbitrary actions by most of the railroads.
However, Kansas City Southern (KCS) was singled out as the most customer friendly, a better word would be ethical, of the Class Ones. The members of the STB board spent some time asking why the other railroads could not emulate KCS's practices to a greater degree.
In logistics, demurrage is generally defined as a fine paid to a carrier for failing to load or unload a transportation asset - like a truck or ship - and then release the asset to service within an agreed upon of time. But the railroads are different. 70% of railroad cars are owned or leased by shippers. 30 percent are "system owned" - owned by the railroad. Shippers said that railroads had told them they do not want to own these assets anymore and encouraged them to buy their own cars.
Railroads are fining shippers for not turning system cars quickly enough, but also for leaving cars on stretches of railroad outside the shipper's yard for too long. Industry participants are referring to both types of fines as demurrage. Additionally, Norfolk Southern has an arbitrary fine, congestion charge of $100 per car per day. This fine applies to all cars destined to a location that in the judgement of Norfolk Southern is an excessive quantity of cars that congests their facilities and results in operating problems. These demurrage and accessorial charges, which can range as high as $500 per instance, result in some of the nation's largest bulk shippers paying millions of dollars annually to the railroads.
With the press toward precision scheduled railroading (PSR) in recent years, the railroads have stepped up their penalties against shippers tying up their assets and tracks. The fines have been increased in size and the amount of time allowed to turn the assets has decreased. At one railroad, the 2013 the fine was $50 a day per car. Today, it is $200. Meanwhile the time allowed to turn the cars went from 48 to 24 hours. In 2018, the Class 1 railroads collected $1.2 billion in demurrage.
Railroads defended the changes as being good for both the railroads and for shippers. By being able to keep cars in motion and "system fluidity" they could more fully utilize their assets and increase profitability. The move toward precision scheduled railroading (PSR) in recent years, has resulted in increased penalties against shippers.
Shippers, the railroads argued, would benefit through quicker and more reliable service. As a result, they would not have to own as many cars and potentially not need to keep as much inventory. These fines are an incentive to get problem shippers to perform in a way that improves service for all their customers.
But shippers pointed to the many ways the charges were illogical, punitive and arbitrary. The biggest issue was bunching. Shippers sought to order cars at a rate that matched their ability to load the cars. So, a shipper might be able to load 5 cars per day. This shipper seeks to order cars at a rate that matches their capabilities. For example, the shipper might order 5 cars for Monday, 5 for Tuesday, and 5 for Wednesday. But not infrequently they receive no cars on Monday and Tuesday, and 15 cars on Wednesday. The shipper's facility does not have the ability to process 15 cars in a day, so the inevitable result is demurrage caused by the railroads own service failure.
Further, it was argued, and not disputed by railroads, that bunching is inevitable even if all parties perform flawlessly. The natural variation in origins and destinations based on changing demand patterns, the impacts of weather, and changing transit times through congested cities, all contribute to bunching.
Fines are generated by the railroads IT systems without considering the capacity of shippers to handle loads, the actual ordering pattern of the shippers, and the number and timing of cars they delivered to the shipper. The onus is on the shipper to then seek "credit days" as recompense. But many shippers testified, and gave specific examples, of the process for resolving these disputes as being arbitrary and one sided.
Further, if shippers did not pay the fines, and continued to dispute them, they could be placed on "embargo" - meaning the railroad would refuse to carry their goods. One STB board member spoke of several shippers telling him privately that the railroads would retaliate against shippers who complained publicly or took their issues to court.
Not all Class 1 railroads have embraced precision scheduled railroading. Yet all the railroads, not just the PSR railroads, have moved to more fines. Just like in the airline industry, after the first airline started charging for bags, all the others followed suit.
It was also argued, that if the goal is to provide incentives to drive system fluidity - and trains end up bunched because one railroad has failed to deliver empty cars to an interchanged railroad in a timely manner - then railroads should impose demurrage fines on each other. This was an issue the railroads were extremely reluctant to discuss.
Railroads also touted their online tools and the visibility provided by their systems. It was difficult to understand why they were so proud of their systems. When asked what percent of car trips met their original estimated time of arrival (ETA), the Union Pacific said it was 73 percent to within 8 hours of when ordered. I read this as meaning that if the car was ordered on Tuesday, they could bring it in on Monday after 4 pm and on Wednesday until 8 am and count the car as being on time. That is a loose window and their performance is still terrible.
The Norfolk Southern tried to finesse the question by saying their on-time early was above 90 percent. But shippers do not want the cars delivered early, that just leads to demurrage.
Shippers scoffed at the quality of these systems. The estimated time of arrivals (ETAs) for when empty cars could be sent to a yard were not accurate; shippers were expected to look on their computers to see where their cars were. But because cars pass from one rail line's tracks to another, that meant looking in multiple systems. ETAs were at the mercy of the least accurate legs of the trip. And the amount of time cars spent at interchange yards being particularly hard to predict. And the whole idea that shippers should have to continually look online, instead of being provided updated ETAs, was viewed as being badly outdated.
The poor ETAs did not just result in demurrage for shippers, it resulted in poor utilization of labor. Companies would have crews waiting to load or unload cars, and then must pay them even though the cars did not show up.
This article has focused on the major issues that were discussed. But several other issues were discussed at great length. Except for KCS, the railroads come off as highhanded, arbitrary, and unfair. Rail has been losing market share to trucking for several years. Truck platooning is particularly well suited to bulk shipping, just like rail is. When truck platooning becomes viable, that drip-drip-drip of share loss could become a deluge.
We are watching a once-great industry destroying itself from within.
It truly saddens me.
Rich:
I think we have been seeing the complete distruction of American Industry from within itself over the past 50 years.
Heard Andy Muller won bidding on one of the A units and one B unit. Does anyone know who got the others?
Been confirmed by Trains Magazine that one A-B set will go to Reading & Northern.
Another danger for US railroads is if the trucking companies and the various DOT's could come up with lanes for "road trains" asvused in Australia.
Reading and Northern is a great railroad, unlike NS, because they still support public excursions and steam. The 425 is one of the nicest looking steam locomotives in the East. The blue sets it apart. Glad to hear that Andy got an A and B unit. Maybe they will actually pull the public someday instead of big wigs. I think not being publicly traded enables RBMN to do what they want without pressure from investors and Wall Street to make a profit and cut costs like the class 1’s.
As the income of companies, that need to always show a profit to their investors, decreases. The cut backs in spending eventually destroy the company. Your spot on, Rich with your comment "destroying itself from within".
These things tend to be cyclic, so a resurgence is possible. Think glass half full. ☺
Dominic Mazoch posted:Another danger for US railroads is if the trucking companies and the various DOT's could come up with lanes for "road trains" asvused in Australia.
You need to read the article set forth above, and the reference to "Truck Platooning." Click on it.
I have always enjoyed seeing the NS F units over the years. Sad news, they will be missed. The two pics here were taken on the night I describe below. Not great pics, but a night I will not forget.
I have to tell a story about these units. A few years ago I was working a late night closing shift at air freight which is directly across from the NS mainline between Rockport Yard (Cleveland) and Berea, OH. I knew the NS OCS was headed from Altoona to Chicago and I had been tracking their progress with the hope to see them between flights. This day it was taking forever and they sat for hours enroute. Finally the OCS was reported from W150th Street in Cleveland so I headed out front to await their passing by. Several coworkers who were eager to see this train stayed past their clock out time to see this train. They were not particularly train fans but had interest in seeing this train. The NS OCS soon approached and stopped across the street from us. We decided to walk across to see it closer from the crossing. Working on an airfield, we all had lime green safety vests on, etc. Next, the crew started to come down off the units and told us they thought we were their relief. We all got a laugh as the real NS replacement crew then arrived in a van at the crossing. They walked over to us and joked, are you guys taking this so we can go home? We laughed and told them where we worked. One of our laid off airline agents had gone to work for NS as a Conductor and they mentioned knowing him. At that point they asked if any of us wanted a ride. We laughed, but the NS crew member said, seriously, ride to Toledo with us and take Amtrak 30 back home to Cleveland, or go to Chicago and fly home! They said the train was a deadhead, no Execs are onboard, and that we looked like crew anyway with our gear, so "come on." My coworkers coaxed me to go, but then I came back to the reality that I was still on the clock over at air freight for another hour. Thoughts of job abandonment and termination Vs. an F unit cab ride across the NS mainline weighed heavily on my mind as the NS crew said, we gotta go, now or never. I replied, I am missing a great offer but I just cannot do this. They closed up and the bell came on, headlights up, two blasts and then they headed west. My rarest of opportunities came and went. The next day, I saw my boss and described the situation. He said, "****, you shoulda called me, I would have cleared that for you!" I said I never thought of calling him at 1130pm to ask if I could hop an NS passenger train across from work!.
Those NS F units were clean, inside and out. You could see the illuminated engine area through the porthole windows, clean as a brand new locomotive. They were proud symbols of a quality railroad.
Given recent NS accidents that seem out of character for the NS, and other news up to this more symbolic change at NS, it is obvious NS has changed for the worse. Two string line derailments in one month in the same location?!?! That is symptomatic of a worsening culture at NS. Perhaps they are moving away from a railroad proudly honoring the grand business they are in, and are joing the ranks of just being transportation company. Perhaps everything is just getting watered down, poorer quality, less pride, ignorance of the old ways. I see it where I work, and all around.
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breezinup posted:Dominic Mazoch posted:Another danger for US railroads is if the trucking companies and the various DOT's could come up with lanes for "road trains" asvused in Australia.
You need to read the article set forth above, and the reference to "Truck Platooning." Click on it.
I was refering to trucks with 3 or nore FULL size trailers with one tractor. I would say that would produce more savings than platooning.
Dominic Mazoch posted:breezinup posted:Dominic Mazoch posted:Another danger for US railroads is if the trucking companies and the various DOT's could come up with lanes for "road trains" asvused in Australia.
You need to read the article set forth above, and the reference to "Truck Platooning." Click on it.
I was refering to trucks with 3 or nore FULL size trailers with one tractor. I would say that would produce more savings than platooning.
I could just see a tractor with 3 or more trailers on the Dan Ryan Expressway, the Ike or the Tri-State Tollway in the Chicago area during rush hour... It's bad enough right now with single trailer rigs.
These states already allow triple trailers: Arizona, Colorado, Idaho, Indiana, Kansas, Montana, Nebraska, Nevada, North Dakota, Oklahoma, Oregon, South Dakota and Utah. In some states, they are restricted to certain highways.
Rusty
BTW...the Norfolk and Western did own f units in several different colors....
A truck pulling a hundred trailers on its own road would be a great savings!
Oh, wait: we call that a freight train.
Vistadomescott; not the NS F’s but apropos of your story and being in the right place at the right time; years ago I was attending a joint Columbus & Greenville / Illinois Central function in Greenville, MS. IC had their executive train led by their E9’s at the event.
At some point during the festivities; I bumped into railroad photographer, author and historian Louis Saillard whose work I had long been familiar with and enjoyed a nice conversation.
A bit later; Louis approached me and asked me to join him in the cab of the lead IC E9 where I enjoyed a cab ride from the brakeman’s jump seat.
Curt
With the road trains, I was thinking of a special lane, just for them. And in Down Under, these huge trucks are made up and broken down before cities.
I could not see them on the Dirty Dan in Chicago or on any roadways in the Houston Area!
Despite having road trains, Australia still has railroads. According to one source I saw, they operate about 21,000 miles of track, which is roughly equivalent to Norfolk Southern or CSX. I think it shows how effective railroads can still be. The railroad concept has to be a good one or it would not have survived as long as it has in the face of subsidized competition, hyper greedy hedge fund management and over regulation.
In my part of the world (north east)...trucks are always getting on our parkways and always finding the low bridge in spite of all the warnings....imagine a road train stuck under the King street bridge on the hutch.......happy Thanksgiving to all...joe
joe krasko posted:BTW...the Norfolk and Western did own f units in several different colors....
Not until after the N&W merged with the Wabash RR.
Dan986 posted:I saw those engines last year at the Triple Crown rail yard in Chicago while dropping off a trailer there. I knew I should have resisted,but wanted to take a closer look at the vintage engines and passenger cars. I got busted big time by NS security for venturing too close to their executive train. The train was loaded with gold bricks from the way I treated and removed. Of course I was in the wrong for venturing a view near the beautiful rare equipment on private property,but a little mercy for a rail fan would have been nice. Rambo let me go eventually with no criminal charges for viewing their train up close.
Happens to me a lot some day I'll buy a camera that can shoot from a longer distance than my iPhone.
Railroads have police forces to guard their property. The NS No Trespassing signs aren’t a joke. If you illegally enter their property especially at a yard and you are spotted by any employee, they might just radio for the NS police to confront you and remove or arrest you. Reading and Northern new owners of 2 NS F units also have their own police and no trespassing signs.
Here are two paint schemes the Reading is considering for their new purchase.
If the Red and black scheme is chosen, the Red will be a closer match to the passenger cars the 425 steamer pulls.
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I have read on another railroad site (Trainorders.com) that the new owner has selected PRR tuscan red styling.
Hot Water posted:I have read on another railroad site (Trainorders.com) that the new owner has selected PRR tuscan red styling.
Similar to actual Pennsy 5 stripe? It’d be neat to see them dressed up fully with Trainphone Antennas like Levin’s E8’s.
joe krasko posted:In my part of the world (north east)...trucks are always getting on our parkways and always finding the low bridge in spite of all the warnings....imagine a road train stuck under the King street bridge on the hutch.......happy Thanksgiving to all...joe
Hi Joe, my neighbor,
I'm guessing there are only a handful of us that easily know the King St. Bridge on the Hutch. That nasty exit is 2 exits North of my daily commute and I will not miss it when I wave bye-bye at the time the retirement bell goes off.
Tom
I do not thinknthe PRR had F units in red. Some FP's, maybe. But it is their railroad. And the F's will be running.
Dominic Mazoch posted:I do not thinknthe PRR had F units in red. Some FP's, maybe. But it is their railroad. And the F's will be running.
Correct, the Pennsy FP7's were their only F's painted Tuscan 5-stripe. They were later repainted in the Brunswick Green freight scheme.
The Ohio Central also painted their FP9's in their variation of the Pennsy 5-stripe scheme.
Rusty
Not so fast on that farewell! It seems chairman Andrew M. Muller Jr. R&B purchased 2 of them.
http://trn.trains.com/news/new...nss-fab-four-f-units
Do you suppose R&B will want or have to repaint these units?
John Wubbel posted:Not so fast on that farewell! It seems chairman Andrew M. Muller Jr. R&B purchased 2 of them.
http://trn.trains.com/news/new...nss-fab-four-f-units
Do you suppose R&B will want or have to repaint these units?
OK, just what is "R&B"?
John Wubbel posted:Not so fast on that farewell! It seems chairman Andrew M. Muller Jr. R&B purchased 2 of them.
http://trn.trains.com/news/new...nss-fab-four-f-units
Do you suppose R&B will want or have to repaint these units?
This is old news at this point. The units will be painted in a Tuscan Red scheme. Also, it's R&N for Reading & Northern, not "R&B".
John Wubbel posted:Not so fast on that farewell! It seems chairman Andrew M. Muller Jr. R&B purchased 2 of them.
http://trn.trains.com/news/new...nss-fab-four-f-units
Do you suppose R&B will want or have to repaint these units?
Did you not bother to read the rest of this thread? We’ve been talking about Andy Muller buying them since 11-23, and the link you just posted was the same one posted here on 11-23.
Hot Water posted:John Wubbel posted:Not so fast on that farewell! It seems chairman Andrew M. Muller Jr. R&B purchased 2 of them.
http://trn.trains.com/news/new...nss-fab-four-f-units
Do you suppose R&B will want or have to repaint these units?
OK, just what is "R&B"?
Totally off topic, but the best I can come up with is "Rhythm and Blues"....
Assuming it’s to mean Reading & Blue Mountain Northern...?