Fiber Pins?

They are completely essential.  Get em.

Jon

The 1121 switches are not non-derailing, so you don't need fiber pins in the inner adjacent rails of the turnout side as with non-derailing switches. The main use for fiber pins with these switches is to isolate a block from another connected block of track. Say, with a siding coming a mainline you want to switch on/off separately from the mainline but using the same transformer.

I don't think your problem is due to missing fiber pins.

OK, thanks to both of you for the two opinions.  I've read that rust and other problems may cause the switch not to work but from reading one commentary it seems like a lot of work to drill out the rivets and open it up to address the problem.   Maybe I should just get another switch from Ebay.

raising4daughters posted:

The 1121 switches are not non-derailing, so you don't need fiber pins in the inner adjacent rails of the turnout side as with non-derailing switches. The main use for fiber pins with these switches is to isolate a block from another connected block of track. Say, with a siding coming a mainline you want to switch on/off separately from the mainline but using the same transformer.

I don't think your problem is due to missing fiber pins.

I now use O22 switches, which are for O Gauge track. From the time I was a child until about 20 years ago (I'm now 66), I had 027 track and switches. My recollection in that 1121 switches are for 027 layouts.

Also, my recollection is that 1121 switches are non-derailing provided the fiber pins are correctly positioned and the switches are otherwise in good working order. A knowledgeable technician can almost always repair or tune these switches to get them in good working order.

Incidentally, I much prefer 022 switches and O Gauge track over 1121 switches and 027 track. O Gauge is stronger and sturdier track and less likely to warp than 027 track. O22 switches have power plugs to power them independently from the track power, and I find the lights and lanterns of the 022 switches to be more attractive than those in the 1121 switches.

There are technicians that can change the 1121 switches so they are independently powered, so they operate more like 022 switches, which would greatly improve their performance IMHO.

20 years ago I bought many used 022 switches, most of which did not work well, paid a few bucks (maybe $50) to have a technician repair and tune them, and they have been terrific on my layout since then. I believe you can still get used 022 switches cheap because so many hobbyists have converted to Fastrack, Atlas, Gargraves, etc.

I stand corrected. I just Googled Lionel 1121 switches and found out it was the 1122 switches that were non-derailing, not the 1121 switches.

If you want your layout to have reverse loops for continuous runs like mine, non-derailing switches are very good to have.

Thanks.  I actually have an 1122 switch also (that works too) that came from a hodgepodge of Lionel trains and track that my late father in law had.    As you stated, I like the non-derailing feature of the 1122 (did not know that) so maybe I will put the 1121 "on the shelf" and replace it with a tested 1122.

These are my first switches so all of this information is valuable, thanks.

Arnold, I'm still a child at 70.....LOL

Great quote from Mr. Churchill, much less well known than "We will fight them on the beaches, we will fight them...."

Maybe Churchill's most famous quote: Never, never, give up!

That could also apply to building your dream layout!

I have used both 1121 and 1122 switches. I like the looks of the 1121s but avoid them because they are NOT non-derailing. They suck for reversing loops unless you are willing to sit by and throw the controller manually.

Fiber pins only provide use for the 1121 in the center rail leading to another power block.

That's all I need to know.  On the shelf goes the 1121 and now looking for an operational 1122

raising4daughters posted:

I have used both 1121 and 1122 switches. I like the looks of the 1121s but avoid them because they are NOT non-derailing. They suck for reversing loops unless you are willing to sit by and throw the controller manually.

Fiber pins only provide use for the 1121 in the center rail leading to another power block.

 

Very good point, Scott, about the fiber pin in center rail to separate power blocks.

You can create the automatic non-derailing function with an 1121 switch, but you must create your own insulated rail sections adjacent to the switch.  Read more here: http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/cd/swt/stc1121b.pdf 

If set up as below, it would operate in a similar manner as the 022 and 1122.

JD

More service manual information for the 1121 switch: http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/searchcd31.htm?itm=682

JD

That might be an option but the bottom line is my 1121 does not function properly so converting to a non-derailing switch would not be advisable.

The extention of the anti-derail feature is possible with an issolated rail too. It can make the feature more reliable when running at lower voltages.

Cutting the bottom skillfully you can cut traces to track power, add a wire under the cover on the topside and power the coil seperate from the track.

Removing a bottom, or cutting a large hole in one, you can see where just a simple slice placed correctly will work. Electrical tape, etc. isnt needed if the cut is burr free and the fishpaper insulator edges remains intact.

Don't park a train on them when powered, they are very tough switches but can overheat too. That is the closest they have to an Achilles Heel, the occasional overheat from operator error.

One can use a capacitive discharge circuit to prevent burnout of the coils due to a parked train/inattentive operator.

JD2035RR posted:

You can create the automatic non-derailing function with an 1121 switch, but you must create your own insulated rail sections adjacent to the switch.  Read more here: http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/cd/swt/stc1121b.pdf 

If set up as below, it would operate in a similar manner as the 022 and 1122.

 

JD

Yep, it's a little bit of a headache, but this is a great way to turn the 1121s into non-derailing switches. Done it multiple times and will be doing same on my new layout that includes two 1121s.

Arnold D. Cribari posted:

Maybe Churchill's most famous quote: Never, never, give up!

That could also apply to building your dream layout!

Most famously misquoted.

... what he really said was, "Never give in, never give in, never, never, never, never—in nothing, great or small, large or petty—never give in except to convictions of honor and good sense."

http://www.preachingtoday.com/...3/january/14163.html

Only learned of the difference myself almost ten years ago while searching for the right words to encourage an acquaintance faced with letting the sun set or enduring a bone marrow transplant and chemotherapy 700 miles from home with uncertain outcome.  He chose not to give in (or up).

What, me worry?

Alfred E Neuman posted:

Arnold D. Cribari posted:

Maybe Churchill's most famous quote: Never, never, give up!

That could also apply to building your dream layout!

Most famously misquoted.

... what he really said was, "Never give in, never give in, never, never, never, never—in nothing, great or small, large or petty—never give in except to convictions of honor and good sense."

http://www.preachingtoday.com/...3/january/14163.html

Only learned of the difference myself almost ten years ago while searching for the right words to encourage an acquaintance faced with letting the sun set or enduring a bone marrow transplant and chemotherapy 700 miles from home with uncertain outcome.  He chose not to give in (or up).

What, me worry?

Thanks, that's very interesting!

JD2035RR posted:

You can create the automatic non-derailing function with an 1121 switch, but you must create your own insulated rail sections adjacent to the switch.  Read more here: http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/cd/swt/stc1121b.pdf 

JD

Here's the quick set-up method using 154c or 1045c contactors(you could use those clip-on Marx copper strips as well):

An update for those of you keeping score at home.  Finally, the diverter tray moved but then I tried again and it would not move.  After about 15 minutes trying to switch it back and forth with the controller, it moved 3 times possibly (and around 50 when it did not move).   

It appears to be a contact problem of some kind  so I sprayed the heck out of the mechanism with contact cleaner but still it only works occasionally.   I could not see any screws to remove in order to pull our the switch and bulb assembly to take a closer look.    Any thoughts?

The 1121 switches have 2 screws holding on the switch machine cover (see red square)

To disassemble further will require drilling out eyelets to remove the bottom plate.

Oh, I need to clarify.  I already had taken to the cover off before posting above so I had found the bulb and mechanicals underneath.   That's where I sprayed contact cleaner, hoping to clean and lube it enough so that it would work every time, not once out of 20 times.

First you need to isolate where the problem is occurring.  If you remove the controller wires from the switch, can you connect the center post to either outside post (one at a time)?  I usually just use a screw driver to touch the center and one of the outside posts.  Does the switch operate?  If no, your problem is in the switch.  If yes - it works, then your problem is in the controller.

The controller contacts may need to be cleaned or there may be a broken connection somewhere in the controller.

Olsen's repair for the 1121 and controller: http://olsenstoy.com/searchcd31.htm?itm=682

I didn't realize on the 1121 controller, there was a shutter mechanism to block out either the red or green lens.  Postwar engineering is always interesting to me

In the "turnout" (lionel doesn't use proper RR terms), you will see what is two coils. Jump power to each to confirm operation or put a meter on each and look for consistent readings. (0 would be a burnt coil, a big change in resistance from the good one would indicate an issue as well)(usually 4-8ohm if I recall, but they should be close.)

The switch itself is not likely the issue (the controller). 

Also, using the outside rail on or after a curve usually improves the contact abilities as the flanges on that side are usually up against that rail. E.g. on the diagram for the Marx/etc, on the deviating rails (curve) I would use the other rail.

I tried two different controllers with the same result so it's definitely not a controller problem.  I have poor eye sight so won't be able to troubleshoot as suggested but thanks anyway for the recommendations on how to fix it.  I'm not even sure if this switch is worth keeping since it has no non-derailing feature like the 1122.  It's probably smarter for me just to by a quality 1122 from Ebay and "recycle" the 1121.

Recycle..or offer it up for cheap, maybe free.

There is always someone that would appreciate it or at least want to dissect it. 

Yes, I would certainly do something "constructive" with the 1121's, not throw them away.  I'm undecided at this point what to do with them.