Here are some pics of MoPac units that my mom and dad took. I know that the colors are a little off.

Here is some of my MoPac motive power by MTH and Atlas.

GP15 and GP35 by Atlas

Atlas GP35 (lead), U23, and MP15

MTH SD40-2 w/ dynamic brakes.

Atlas U23 leading

Atlas GP35's

MTH SD40-2 in Jenks Blue and two Atlas MoPac SD40 Canaries

Atlas GP35, GP15, GP35

Atlas GP35's

Ok, i see where you are comparing to the darker models from other mfgrs.  My first impression was those MTH units look way too dark.

They look like photos of MP equipment weathered out jenks blue after chalking and dulling after 10 years.  And look maybe too dark for 1/48th scale.  I think lionel attempted the fresh factory painted and scaled to 1/48.  For those not familliar, you can read up on scale effect of paints on the scale model forums, i do alot of that hobby too.  But the scale effect is to lighten up as the scale changes smaller.  So HO at 1/87 should be painted LIGHTER than O at 1/48 to be correct.  

The other thing is to get the pic of new equipment, fresh paint, not weathered out equipment like the ones posted for reference.

I will get my units outside tomorrow and get some natural light pics.  

I keep looking at photos of fresh painted jenks like the one i posted.  This color looks good to me.  But i can see how some guys used to the other mfgrs, see this darker.  Some examples posted look way too dark, and look like they tried to match weatherd out jenks, and no scale effect.

The best light to look at this stuff is in sunlight.

That said, the sun, pollution, heat, and humidity can play havoc with paint here in Texas.  I have seen various "variations" of Jenks blue do to aging.

SD40's on MP did not have d/b.  However, some SD40-2's DID, because they were pool power on coal trains running on BN.

Some SD40-2's and  those with special cooling packages, IE, "Tunnel Motors", had a shorter front porch due to longer noses.  Some of these noses had controls for "master/slave" remote units.

Dominic Mazoch posted:

The best light to look at this stuff is in sunlight.

That said, the sun, pollution, heat, and humidity can play havoc with paint here in Texas.  I have seen various "variations" of Jenks blue do to aging.   

Yes, agree...  grime, dirt, soot all darken the colors and weather age also.  I always look at the rest of the engine before looking at the color for a sample.  When half the loco is all rusted and washed out, you cant call that the original color!

Here are 3 different HO manufacturer's MoPac SD40-2's. They seem to match the MTH and Atlas locos.

Athearn

Kato

Broadway Limited

I see that it is lighter but I think that is due to the lighting conditions when the photo was taken. 

That broadway is more like it.  Athern kato not lit in the photos.  They look closer to the weatherd 10year exposure blue.  It looks like the blue gets chalky over time.  I can only fine really weatherd engine photos to look like this dark blue.  It just looks too dark, vs the newly painted MOPAC engine photos.

Here are some pics outside of the new lionel sd40, recent alcp pa, and previous gp35.  Pa, and sd40 look to be a shade darker, but closer to the MOPAC newly painted pass equipment pic i posted.  Note the new sd40 is behind the gp35 on the fastrack.  It appears a shade darker, but same color enough that they look good in a lashup.

I am happy with the blue lionel used.  It matches photos of new mopac paint.  However the blue on the trucks appears lighter!

Well said MTN. There's also the fact that we view these pictures on different devices which are not calibrated the same way.

MTN I think you are spot on with that statement...  filters also have big influence.

Anyway all said, this new MOPAC is loved on my model railroad...

The color on my HP laptop's screen is diferent than the color on my HP tower's monitor - they're in the ballpark, but look different when side by side.

In natural light your SD40-2 is better than the GP35. That is still way too light on the GP35. The PA looks good but they used Jenks Blue instead of Eagle Blue. Eagle Blue is much lighter. For the PA to be in Jenks Blue it would not have had the large white stripe.

Here is a restored Texas Eagle car, Eagle Cliff used down here on the Austin Steam Train Association's excursion trains. I personally know the car's owner. That blue of the GP35 is closer to Eagle Blue in my opinion.

Hi Ricky...  yea, you are right.  The PA is eagle blue, and looks like that pass car although that is gloss...  maybe hard to tell in the pic, the PA looks a different color than the sd40.

It was fun discussing this with you and glad there are MOPAC fans out there.  I lived in St louis for a long time, and saw alot of MOPAC out west.  I hope lionel does  more MOPAC.  The pa is really nice.  I want a T&P f unit next.

The darker color is correct IMHO.  Yes, as they age and fade they become.........

lighter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShuCNI9W6ZA

As for the Southern Pacific model, I'm not too sure the walkways were painted black. Maybe on the later GP60 model. But this can easily be fixed.

It's amazing that MTH has been out to lunch when they should be doing a Southern Pacific version with their re-tooled SD45 to match Lionel's SD40.

I loved the video...  yea generally things go lighter if there is red in the paint.  The red fades and drops out in time.  So maybe not in this case.  None of the fresh painted phots are dark.  Always seem to be highly weathered engines.  Im still looking though...

I think there is an "official" DuPont paint chip for "Jenks Blue"!

True-Color Railroad Paint TCP-120 MISSOURI PACIFIC JENKS BLUE

Dominic Mazoch posted:

I think there is an "official" DuPont paint chip for "Jenks Blue"!

I've seen a reference to that, also.

Great...  yea, thats 1 to 1 scale.  Need to mix in white for 1/48th scale...  that lightens it alot.  There must be red in that mix, maybe thats why it chalks over time.  Do they give any ratios for this paint?

If i can get ratios, i can run a simulation at 5, 10 and 15 years and we can watch how it changes!  That would be really beating the dead horse, eh?

Here's some more info. Presumably, the blue color surrounding the eagle in the logo is Jenk's Blue (and it's the same color as the Jenk's Blue paint sample shown above).

Equipment Colors and Painting

 

Missouri Pacific 'Screaming Eagle' Herald first introduced in 1969. General use of this herald spanned from 1974 to 1984 (1983 for general equipment, 1984 for documents).

 

The Missouri Pacific was known for its "Eagle" color scheme designed by Raymond Loewy. It consisted of Dark Cerulean, Icterine Yellow, and Isabelline Gray. These colors were mostly applied to passenger locomotives, passenger cars, merchandise boxcars and first-generation freight locomotives starting on October 22, 1939, and ending on April 27, 1961. 

Throughout the 1960s and 1970s a handful of railroads began to paint their locomotives one or two simple colors without excessive striping, lettering, etc. due to financial troubles. However, under the Downing B. Jenks presidency, the Eagle Scheme was discontinued because Mr. Jenks did not want to spend money on a fancy paint scheme, though his railroad was not having financial problems. Effective April 28, 1961, all locomotives (new or to be repainted) were to receive an alternative version of Dark Cerulean, from which the term "Jenks Blue" is derived (also sometimes called "Dark Eagle Blue").

Back to the SP.  I tried to shoot a quick video of these...

Ive been looking at so many mopac photos today that now i need a beer.  I have found a few that are SUPER dark blue, much darker than the chip.  These are where the RED in the herold is all faded out (old).  I post a few.  Then i find some that are kinda bright, and those have much brighter red in herold (newer?).  Oh well...  theory...

I have some color blindness.  I would call the really dark MP blue "purple" until my parents told me the real color was a really dark blue.

But I do love the "screaming Eagle" hood units!

Super O Bob posted:

Back to the SP.  I tried to shoot a quick video of these...

I am really liking the southern pacific ones .. Actually regretting not buying one .. I will wait for the cp rail ones you know they will make them. 

Yea, but CP RAIL will not have this great SP lighting kit?  I really loved the headlight strobe on the SP...

I ALSO want cp rail.  That would be great...

Bob, 

Atlas O made some nice looking MoPac F3's awhile back. They're the lighter blue with the white cigar band. You could have it re decaled for the T&P. 

Yes:  The T&P.  The part of MP most people forget!  

Now do those yellow Atlas MP's in UP yellow on the Austin layout have the "UP" or square "MP/N Little Rock" style lettering?

Not sure, have to go back and look. I know the SD50's that MTH did awhile back has the bigger "Little Rock" style.

MTH just came out with GP38 canaries.

Ricky,

The T&P did not have any F3's. Only F7's. I have all the Atlas Missouri Pacific F3's and they are awesome.

If Lionel would do some T&P F7's correctly I would be in for at least two sets.

Hope to get an outside picture with a bunch of Mopac engines today. MTH, Atlas and Lionel.

Guys,

Here is a picture study I did today.

Atlas F3 Front, Atlas GP35 Middle/ Lionel SD40 Rear

Opposite View

Top view with a magnet I found on the garage Refrigerator. Not sure if it is correct, but it does seem to match the Lionel Engine.

MTH Alco PA, Lionel Alco Pa, Lionel SD40, Atlas GP35 and Atlas F3. Like you guys I spent all weekend looking at pictures and ready anything I could find. Now I am really confused which one is right, if any.

Here is the Atlas GP35 and Lionel GP35 side by side this past winter. The Lionel engine is in storage at the moment so I could not compare it.

My observation is the Atlas F3 is slightly lighter than the Atlas GP35 even though they seem to be the same in the pictures. I know Eagle Blue and Jenks Blue were different colors so something is wrong with at least one of the Lionel engines. The MTH engine is lighter than the Atlas F3.

Some information I found Screaming Eagles web site: They were talking about the new paint applied to the GP35's when they state" The new standard was to be more economical and durable, but 10 years of weathering turned some engines a washed out blue, a "pastel blue, or even oxidized with a purple-cast to some engines". The newer painted engines on the web site show engines more in line with the Atlas samples.

The one thing for sure that is wrong with the Lionel SD40 is the black walkways. They should be the same color as the engine.

So maybe all of the GP's are correct and we are seeing them at different ages. So I guess a guy could have newly painted and oxidized painted in the yard.

Question: My Lionel Sd40's back handrail was broken off (weak glue joint) How to I clean off the old and what brand of new glue should I use?

Joe

On large roads like the PRR, there could be color changes on the same color from can to can/barrel to barrel.

There has been some variations over the years on SP Dark Lark Grey in the Bloody Nose era.

This, plus weathering and aging could create color shifts.

Now some of the BNSF "Superfleet" red noses are, er pink, er  ROSE!

Thanks so much Joe for posting the pics.  I posted the pics of some very dark chalky blue engines, and the darker grey blue the engine, the less the red was in herald.  So i think original jenks must have red in the mix.  Red washes out and leaves just the blue and grey, so it gets darker in exposure.  I found progressively darker blue engines, all of which had the herald almost gone completely.

I did find out today that this color for this engine was consulted by someone knowledabke in MOPAC.  So maybe they had the same mopac magnet!

Well, just throwing it out there.. the Lionel SD40 looks like the best match of all of them.

TrainingDave posted:

Well, just throwing it out there.. the Lionel SD40 looks like the best match of all of them.

I can't agree, unless I misunderstand what "best match" is referring to. It seems pretty clear, looking at all the foregoing information (and some photos I took of MOPAC engines in the late 70s), that the correct conclusion about color fidelity of the new Lionel MOPAC SD40 is well illustrated by the photo below that Joe supplied, which shows an Atlas O engine on the left with the paint they use, and a Lionel engine on the right with the paint they use. Bottom line is that the Atlas engine displays the correct, dark shade that more truly matches Jenk's Blue, and the Lionel color is too light, heading toward Conrail country. 

Whoever stated to SuperOBob that Lionel chose this color because they were "consulted by someone knowledgeable in MOPAC" may think that information is correct, but it's hard to imagine why Lionel would do that, given that there are tons of correct paint samples around, as well as the actual chip. Maybe it was the same "consultant" they consulted with when they got the completely wrong orange paints on their Rio Grande and Great Northern GP35s (dealers are still trying to dump those Great Northerns).

As has been noted by others, however, blue paint shades can change after lengthy exposure to sunlight, and it is easy to imagine the Lionel shade being that of a MOPAC engine that has been out in the elements for awhile. In any case, the new MOPAC SD40s are very attractive, and a good simulation of an active MOPAC unit.

Bob, 

I would like to see your paint simulations. I would also like more background on this theory of lightening colors for smaller models.

I'm still not convinced that is correct they have the correct Missouri Pacific Jenks Blue.

I asked Lionel yesterday about the selection color, and this is what they told me.  Supposedly they had help in picking colors and this SD40 one is different than the MP GP35 that breeze just posted, you can see hat in my pics.  It is darker than that GP35 shown in the pic, but not like that atlas o engine.  I cant find any matches of the dark color on that atlas, unless it is on a highly weathered example.  All I can find have the red in the herald wiped and faded away indicating (in theory) that it has been in the elements for a really long time...

I have done coatings work on Jet fighters and we did many tests such as rain erosion specular tests and others I cant mention.  The spectrum of the color must meet the specifications to meet the camouflage requirements and in time, these colors change.  We had mostly grey low visibility jets, but the computer models can tell how much red is left after exposure.  Red fades, just look at any red car after time in UV.  You can go to junk yard and remove some trim and see the color lost.  I have an orange mustang that is turning into a honey gold before my eyes, as the years go by!

This is my theory:  That the Jenks had some red in it, and grey and blue.  As that red fades, you are left with just the same dark blue and grey.  I'm guessing this would make it look darker in time, cause the lighter color is now gone.  Every photo I have seen of the dark examples of jenks are on badly weathered units.  I have not yet found a freshly painted engine in this darker appearing color.  Post one if you can find one.  So that's what I started thinking that this might be red dropping out in time.  The blue looks like it becomes chalky and dull and darker.  If the red was mixed in a lighter color it would go lighter in time, but here the only pigments left are darker.

This color is way darker than Conrail Blue, I had compared to my Conrail U boat last night...  I can post that too.

oh, as for scale effect go look at any model paint mfgr, like Model master is already mixed for 1/48th scale.  You need to lightend another 15% to get that to 1/72nd scale which is what i work with usually.  You can find all this discussed on any model making forum.  Scale effect of paint.

There is alot on the net about red fade, UV damages it...

The Star-Spangled Banner is a case in point. Both the dyes and the wool of our country's most famous flag have been seriously light-degraded over time. And as expected, the red dye is more faded than the blue. "The red dyes are more susceptible to fading because they look red and thus absorb blue, and blue is the higher-energy light," notes David Erhardt of the Smithsonian Center for Materials Research and Education, who assisted the flag's conservation project.

here is a funny one but from a science website:

Not all red is faded. Look at Santa Claus' clothes. Still red for years...

It depends. Yellow also fades, but it's difficult to detect because if it fades, it will turn to creamy white. So, not much differences noticeable. All color absorbs wide spectrum or light from the Sun. The sun's ray is polychromatics, so it consist of all visible and non-visible color. Why red color fades so fast, I believe it's because the red color components react by absorbing the blue ray, which in fact has a higher energy so that makes the red color molecules changes (degrades) from time to time.

Blue has shorter wave length, therefore higher energy. If you see in rainbow's color spectrum, red is in the complete opposite from blue or violet. From that, we can see that red will be the first "victim" among other visible color. Of course there are many ways to protect, one of example is to layer it with highly reflective material and UV protection. Just like what we all see in the traffic signal.

I can post something on scale factor for paint, but I do have a day job, so it may be later.

here is a quick screen shout for all you doubters.  I can post more when there is more time.  I'm not crazy, this is commonly done in the modelling world.