Now with MOPAC added...First Look: Pics of New Tooling Lionel SD40's (Southern Pacific)

Bob,

Thanks for the information.

Any idea what color they actually used so one could paint the walkways. I am pretty sure that they were not black. I have never seen a picture of black walkways on a Mopac.

Joe

Wave lengths and other mysteries aside , the inescapable conclusion - to me - is that the Lionel color on their SD40s is a bit too light in shade. To say otherwise means all the other manufacturers, in both HO  and O (photos supplied by Texas Eagle 77), have it wrong.  Not to mention most all color photographs. Even allowing for variations in photos, computer monitors, etc., it is clear that most every depiction of MOPAC engines has a darker shade of blue than Lionel's. All this is not to say Lionel's units aren't nice - they're very nice, and it's easy to think of them as engines with some "road time" and weathering.

Athearn

Kato

Atlas O (noted for its accuracy, of course)

Lionel:

Super O Bob posted:

 

The Star-Spangled Banner is a case in point. Both the dyes and the wool of our country's most famous flag have been seriously light-degraded over time. And as expected, the red dye is more faded than the blue. "The red dyes are more susceptible to fading because they look red and thus absorb blue, and blue is the higher-energy light," notes David Erhardt of the Smithsonian Center for Materials Research and Education, who assisted the flag's conservation project.

 

ROYGBIV

Red, orange, yellow, green, blue, indigo, violet

Red and green are complementary colors.

Blue and yellow are complementary colors. 

Compounds that absorb green light will be red in color to our eyes.  Compounds that absorb red light will be green in color to our eyes.  

Compounds that absorb blue are yellow to our eyes while yellow absorbing compounds are blue. 

Chemistry 101

http://antoine.frostburg.edu/c...lor-complement.shtml

The wavelength of light absorb has no indication on stability. I know of deep UV absorbing compounds that are very stable while I know of compounds that are red absorbing that degrade rapidly. It all has to do with excited state dynamics. When a compound absorbs a quantum of energy (a photon) the energy results is higher level states of the compound being occupied. It depends what happens with the energy of these higher level states that determines if a compound is stable or not. 

Breezinup, I totally agree with you!

I posted this picture before but decided to crop it to show the engines better for everyone. Dan Tracy is the photographer who posted the original on RailPictures.net. In his caption he states:

"New SD40-2 and U30C on a caboose hop depart Dolton for BRC Clearing yard"

 So that is a fairly brand new freshly painted Jenks Blue SD40-2.

To my eye that is much darker and that looks a lot closer to the MTH and Atlas units to me.

I also found this photo of one very weathered MP SD40-2 #3158 taken by Barry Byington, Sr. Interesting note on this one is that it is one of the few that received the double eagles. It got the one on the cab and the one on the body.

So it would take a nice weathering job for the Lionel version to pass muster in my opinion. Still doubt that I will be one at this point since I would also have to fix the walkways as Joe pointed out. 

This has been a fun adventure. Thank you everyone who have contributed in some way.

I wish I knew who exactly was Lionel's MoPac expert.... Needless to say I am still very disappointed in this model and in Lionel's recent track record for MP and MKT motive power. 

It looks like there is a tradeoff for the Lionel SD40, MTH SD40-2 and Atlas GP35.

The Lionel SD40 has a shade of blue that is lighter than the prototype but the sounds and features are incredible. And, everything is correctly proportioned.

The MTH SD40-2 and Atlas GP35 may have the correct colors but with the MTH SD40-2 you have an undersized fuel tank and unsightly gaps between the trucks and pilots. The Atlas GP35 sounds nothing like the real locomotive and if it has cruise the EOB doesn't come close to Odyssey II.

Wow that double eagle pic with the reasonably bright red logo looks very close to the Lionel unit.  looks darn close and that Lionel is under flo light.  I'm satisfied, Lionel color looks right, thanks for posting...

This was the evidence That I was trying to find.  All Dark blue have weathered out logos.  Too Bad it was not a sunny day.  This is all glossed up and doesn't match any of the other manufacturers either!

 Very interesting!  Can we find any more DARK (like the MTH) color with BRIGHT RED logos?  I have never found any yet.  You guys have not either.

Look, if you don't Like the color, quit yer *****ing and don't buy one, and watch your Judge Judy Reruns.  Just dont slam someone's new train that they are really proud of and happy with.  If you cant stand it that many of us like it, too bad...

If you want to talk trains, and this hobby, I'm your guy.  You guys have not found any evidence yet to support your claim.

breezinup posted:

Wave lengths and other mysteries aside , the inescapable conclusion - to me - is that the Lionel color on their SD40s is a bit too light in shade. To say otherwise means all the other manufacturers, in both HO  and O (photos supplied by Texas Eagle 77), have it wrong.  Not to mention most all color photographs. Even allowing for variations in photos, computer monitors, etc., it is clear that most every depiction of MOPAC engines has a darker shade of blue than Lionel's. All this is not to say Lionel's units aren't nice - they're very nice, and it's easy to think of them as engines with some "road time" and weathering

Breeze-

We are trying to compare to the REAL locos.  It don't matter what other model manufacturers that may have copied each other did (or looked at weathered locos and matched that).  I think those look cool and if I had a MTH or Atlas, it would be the best candidate for a weather job!  No question about it!

All the photos of the real engines that look like the dark color you say are very weathered and easy to see that by the red in the MOPAC logo is all gone.  We have posted many of these.  Still not found a pic of a dark blue engine with a bright red logo that was painted in the 1960's.

The fading is a real process and to pretend it doesnt exits is not being accurate with reality of what these locos look like.  A real modeller takes into account age, fade, scale factor all of this in the modelling world, maybe that needs to come to the model train world as we try and be more accurate with the 3RS and wonderful work so many are doing here...  I am starting to get interested more and more in weathering my trains, just not made that leap yet.  Its kinda hard too when they look like they just left the factory in 1965!

 I have started weathering my model airplanes, have airbrush will travel!

 This is very close to the Atlas and other mfg color used.  See there is no RED left in the mopac logo under the cab winow.  This is what I have been talking about.  You can see how weatherd this is.

Super O Bob posted:

 

 Very interesting!  Can we find any more DARK (like the MTH) color with BRIGHT RED logos?  I have never found any yet.  You guys have not either.

Like these?

Forgive me for going off the rails here (get it?) but, Bob, what is the manufacturer of your track?  That track looks awesome!

Ok, using the Jenks Blue picture posted by Breezinup and 2 of Blue Streaks photos from different lighting angles, I overlayed them on the Jenks blue, then erased the foreground to show the Jenks blue against each locomotive. 

Here is one taken by a friend of mine that works for the Santa Fe. It will really mess with everyone's heads.

Notice a few things

1. Dark Blue on body is more like the Atlas and MTH models.

2. Lighter Blue on the trucks and fuel tank is more like Lionel model

3. The MP buzzsaw is not faded too badly.

I have shown Joe's picture of the 5 different blues together to many railroaders I know. They all agree that Atlas's GP35's are closer to being correct.

A weathered and faded locomotive is not get darker. It should get lighter. So if you weather the new Lionel model the blue they used is correct.

If you want it new off the showroom floor (which it technically it is) then their blue is wrong. Not to mention the black walkways are wrong.

On another note, I would love to see video of the Lionel GP35's and the new SD40-2's running on a layout. So if someone out there can post videos that would be greatly appreciated.

Here is another good pic from my friend RJ.

To me, correct fresh jenks Blue should be close to the blue the US Navy used in WWII.  Or the blue used on the Blue Angels aircraft!

If somebody has an official MP Jenks Blue chip, I got an idea.  Take it to SWP, or other paint store.  Let the agent run the chip under the paint match reader.  That should give us some idea of what, and how much, mix of paints were used to make Jenks.

Perfect!  That's what I have wanted to see!  Looks Dark but with a fresh herald...  Looks like the 1970's from those cars so it is different paint than the 1960's though.  It looks different than the other mfgr's.

This is a third color!  Different certainly than the more grey Atlas...

Dominic Mazoch posted:

If somebody has an official MP Jenks Blue chip, I got an idea.  Take it to SWP, or other paint store.  Let the agent run the chip under the paint match reader.  That should give us some idea of what, and how much, mix of paints were used to make Jenks.

Yea, and we can (if there is red in it) drop out the red progressively and see what the color looks like with red faded and scale effect added!

Dominic Mazoch posted:

To me, correct fresh jenks Blue should be close to the blue the US Navy used in WWII.  Or the blue used on the Blue Angels aircraft!

No the Blue Angel Blue is not Sea Blue.

Blue Angel Blue is FS15050.  Dark Sea Blue USN 1944+ is FS15042, it is darker.

The 1 means gloss, the 5 means blue, and the last 3 are specular quality (lower the number is darker).  So 050 is lighter than the 042.

Careful, that makes Lionel look more accurate!

See why I think there is some red in the Jenks and the deeper blue might be what it looks like when red goes away after fading?  The GP35 in the middle looks like red has dropped out to me, but it certainly matches many of the photos I found with herald faded.

Super O Bob posted:

Perfect!  That's what I have wanted to see!  Looks Dark but with a fresh herald...  Looks like the 1970's from those cars so it is different paint than the 1960's though.  It looks different than the other mfgr's.

 

This is a third color!  Different certainly than the more grey Atlas...

 

To me engine D matches the lead engine in the picture above. That blue has not faded. The units behind it have and they are still dark albeit dirty.

Engine D is so far the front runner in my poll of various railroaders I know. Including some that worked for the MoPac.

Engine D is the Atlas GP35. 

Thanks for posting this pic Joe.

It looks like the color I saw on MP units along Hardy Street.  Before the Toll Road was built!

WOW! From a simple Lionel Sd40 thread to two pages of comparing Jenks Blue to see if Lionel was off or not??? I vote NOT OFF.

For the prices of these models, the color better be close!

The "GP20's" Lionel MPC for MP in the late 1970's seemed to be a darker blue.

And for my contribution, here is the Lionel Conrail "Savings Bonds" Sd40!

I like the detail of the Harmon "Select-A-Power sticker" found on these locomotives. I also like the correct 2 strap Signal control box found on many EMD locos that Conrail owned.

Originally posted by Dominic Mazoch:

For the prices of these models, the color better be close!

Lionel's "Conrail Blues" always seemed to be a little darker than the competitions....

But not as dark as this!

But it seems to match my jacket!

Is the signal control box the one to the right of the number 6300 on the cab?

The signal box is the box located on the walkway in front of the engineers side ( right side) of the cab.

I saw CR #6308 at the local hobby shop a couple of days ago. I'm a Chessie guy only but I did give some thought as to how that might look pulling on my tracks. It would look good, but then again, all of them would.

That locomotive is sweet. I can't wait to see which road names they do next...maybe Chesapeake & Ohio or Pennsylvania.

Just got my BN today! Here's a short video.

UPDATE: Now in HD. Hope you enjoy! 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-hky7sM7v4

You know. At first I was looking at the pics of the Lionel unit and comparing them to my atlas unit and I was saying no way I want one. Atlas is better looking....then I came back to this thread again....and again....now I want the Lionel unit as well in the SP package....gonna have to find one now....

Color is a funny thing. So much depends on the lighting. To get a color match, they employ a spectrometer to an actual test sample of paint which is usually a quite accurate measurement. Then they have to mix the paint to this color spec and test the sample of the production liquid under special neutral lighting to make sure the match is spot on. Adjustments are made if necessary.  Remember, too, that the gloss level of the paint plays a huge factor in how our eyes perceive the finished color, as the reflection of light off the object will be quite different on different levels of gloss. All very tricky.

theteejmiester posted:

You know. At first I was looking at the pics of the Lionel unit and comparing them to my atlas unit and I was saying no way I want one. Atlas is better looking....then I came back to this thread again....and again....now I want the Lionel unit as well in the SP package....gonna have to find one now....

Looking for SP?  Check my ad on the Buy/Sell Forum...please.

If anyone wants to know what the SP Daylight SD40 looks like here are some pictures. I got it yesterday.

Unfortunately, I'm probably going to have to send it to Lionel because it has a couple of issues. For some reason when it makes left turns, even on O-72 curves, the wheels hit the electrocoupler on the front and pop it open. The rear emergency stop light isn't working and to top it off I think something is wrong with the Odyssey control because it kind of lurches at low speeds.

I really wish Lionel would do a better job of quality control. It seems like I am always sending my new engines back to the factory for something to be corrected.

ModelTrainStuff posted this pretty informative and well shot video demonstrating the normal Conrail SD40.

I was a bit on the fence on the horn in these engines, but after awhile it grows on you. It's also better to me than the higher pitched violin horn on the 2012 SD40-2's. Needless to say, I think Lionel really got it right with these engines.

Coopertroopa posted:

If anyone wants to know what the SP Daylight SD40 looks like here are some pictures. I got it yesterday.

Unfortunately, I'm probably going to have to send it to Lionel because it has a couple of issues. For some reason when it makes left turns, even on O-72 curves, the wheels hit the electrocoupler on the front and pop it open. The rear emergency stop light isn't working and to top it off I think something is wrong with the Odyssey control because it kind of lurches at low speeds.

I really wish Lionel would do a better job of quality control. It seems like I am always sending my new engines back to the factory for something to be corrected.

By the looks of your last 2 pictures it seems as if your locomotive may have been dropped. It kind of gives a new meaning to the term "drop shipped." The body has a slight lean to the right and appears to be separating from the frame.

Given your issues and the body all caddywhompus I'd ask for another engine as a replacement.

catnap posted:

Coopertroopa posted:

If anyone wants to know what the SP Daylight SD40 looks like here are some pictures. I got it yesterday.

Unfortunately, I'm probably going to have to send it to Lionel because it has a couple of issues. For some reason when it makes left turns, even on O-72 curves, the wheels hit the electrocoupler on the front and pop it open. The rear emergency stop light isn't working and to top it off I think something is wrong with the Odyssey control because it kind of lurches at low speeds.

I really wish Lionel would do a better job of quality control. It seems like I am always sending my new engines back to the factory for something to be corrected.

By the looks of your last 2 pictures it seems as if your locomotive may have been dropped. It kind of gives a new meaning to the term "drop shipped." The body has a slight lean to the right and appears to be separating from the frame.

Given your issues and the body all caddywhompus I'd ask for another engine as a replacement.

Crap! I didn't even notice that until now. Unfortunately, I got the last Daylight from the place I bought it from. Hopefully Lionel will be able to take care of it for me.

I am shocked that the ModelTrainStuff video did not display even one wisp of diesel smoke from that unit...:...next to blowing the horn continually during any video...making smoke has to be the most dramatic feature.

Super O Bob posted:

Here are the New Lionel SP SD40's that just arrived from Legacy Station.  I posted these to some other threads, but figured a stand alone post would let more guys see these.

I have some other roads on the way too and will post when they arrive, but here is the first look at the new tooling.  It is awesome.  Really love the SP lighting and the details and the fixed/kinematic pilots.  Very cool.  Hope you enjoy the pics, I will post more later.

 

Hey Bob,

Quick question for you. When you use the emergency stop feature is it only the front that lights up? I sent my Daylight SD40 back for repairs on a few things and that was one of the things I listed. I'm now kind of wondering if Lionel just got lazy and only put the feature on the front of the engine and not the back.

Matt