Fix For Noisy Smoke Units

Thanks Eric....I enjoyed the video and will put this knowledge to work!

Alan

Thank you Eric. Now I think its time to take off that winter coat and enjoy this nice summer weather were having.  

Thanks Eric, as usual top notch!  UPS just lost a lot of business to 44406 Ohio!

Nice detailed video.   One addition I recommend is a drop of oil on the other end of the motor shaft as well. 

You think so!

Ordinarily I'd agree with you, but most of these motors don't have an open bottom where you can access the other end of the shaft...not without actually opening the motor up. Thanks!

Interesting Eric, obviously that motor won't benefit.  All the MTH, Lionel and even a USA Trains smoke unit I have do have a small hole in the bottom.  I try to get a bit of oil into that when I'm oiling the main bearing.  I suspect the main bearing is, as you say, the primary culprit.  All mine smoke units are pre-Legacy.  I haven't taken apart one of the new Legacy locomotives, so they may well have changed the motor style and eliminated that possibility.

In any case, great video and may indeed save some folks shipping money and time.  I've been very successful oiling them so far.  I'll soon be trying it on a newer Legacy model, my two Legacy U-Boats have more fan noise than I like, they're scheduled to get the treatment.

Here's a picture of what I'm talking about, Lionel units on the ends, and an MTH one in the middle.

First, I wonder how long the fix will last?

Second, It seemed that you were able to remove the shell easily by just removing the four screws. I tried to take the shell off my Lionel PRR U30c and could not get it off. Also is seemed that your engine has a one piece shell while the U30c is three separate sections.

Any thoughts on this?

Eric,  That is an excellent video that covers absolutely every detail and is very comprehensive both orally and visually.  Thanks for taking the time to do this for the benefit of all of us. 

I can tell you the fix will some period of time, I have locomotives that were oiled over a year ago, still running quiet.  I know about the issues with the U-Boat shell, but many of the locomotives are as easy as Eric's video illustrates.  Some are more complicated.  Since he was showing the smoke unit fix, I suspect he didn't want 30 minutes on how to take the shell off a difficult engine.

Thanks for the video Eric.  Very informative.

Thanks, Eric. Great job. Great info (especially for a newbie like me)

You always do a good job with your videos. I enjoy waitching one as I have a cold one in the evenings sometimes.

Jim

Thanks Eric - great job as usual.  I truly enjoy your videos.

Thanks for the info.

I can't give you an exact amount of time the fix lasts, but it's quite a while. Like the other poster said, I've got engines that I did this to a couple years ago that are still running quiet. My guess is that it's just an "as needed" sort of thing...sorta like oiling the hinges on a squeaky door. 

As for the shell issues, I can't really give an insight there except to say that shell configurations vary greatly. I've got 2 U30C's and both of their shells come off very easily...but maybe that's just me. 

Thanks,

Eric

Great video and useful tip. Thank you. Dave G.

Great thread  Eric, without bursting your bubble, there are some smoke unit fans recently delivered in Lionel locos that oil will not cure. The legacy k4 and mikado come to mind, these have had numerous fan complaints.

I myself purchased a k4 that had a noisy fan  right out of the box. I oiled it  and it lasted a few weeks at most, the noise came back with a vengence and the motor completely stopped.

 A bit of manual coaxing would get it to turn but the noise and vibration was horrendous. I ordered a replacement motor from Lionel and it is now nearly silent.

It seemed as though the bushings ( or something else) in the bad motor was manufactured incorrectly, the fan moved in a bit of an orbital motion as it turned and vibrated horribly.

Having said all that, I've had other motors on Lionel and MTH alike that were "fixed" with a drop of oil and the problem never returned.

John, everything is about the same with Legacy.

I have yet to have a Legacy issue with smoke fans, so I haven't looked.  I do have somewhat noisy fans in my U-Boats, so they're probably the first ones I'll be looking at.

Do they use the same motor, or have they changed the size or shape?

As you know the MTH and Lionel fan motors are about the same and will interchange.  Lionel recently has been using a better motor made by Mabuchi.  These are showing up in many Lionel locomotives.  I order several and use them in my own MTH locomotives.  I recently put one in Locolawyers Hudson and he is happy. BTW, the plugs on the video ate Leoco and not Molex.

Lionel part number 6101154130.

Marty thank you for that part number 

Thanks Marty, I saved that one, I think I'll get a couple of those to have on hand.  I'm assuming they'll interchange with existing motors, right?

Direct fit, Lionel or MTH.

Great video, Eric - very helpful. Thanks for taking the time to make it.

As for the shell issues, I can't really give an insight there except to say that shell configurations vary greatly. I've got 2 U30C's and both of their shells come off very easily...but maybe that's just me. 

I tried to take the shell off my PRR U30C but it would not budge. Apparently Lionel changed the design in these Legacy units to have three separate parts that make up the shell. The center part snaps in and is very difficult to remove. Anyway, I'm planning on taking it to a local service center along with my K4 to have the smoke unit issues resolved. All the indications are that the motors are defective and need to be replaced.

For Marty Fitzhenery:

Marty, to the best of your knowledge, are there any other physical differences between the MTH smoke unit and the Lionel (legacy) smoke units? Meaning, if the motors are the same, what other item would make the smoke units differ (impeller, air intake/output opening, resistor, etc).

Thanks,

Charlie

The Legacy smoke units for the some steamers look quite different than the MTH units.  They have the motors mounted sideways as you can see in the video starting this thread.  I haven't seen any MTH smoke units with that design.

John, most of the steamers are that way.  Most diesels are as they have been.  I have seen some mounted sideways.Applications do change in some locomotives. 

Charlie, motors will interchange on almost all MTH and Lionel items.  Same voltage.  The smoke chamber that holds the wick is different and the impellers are mostly the same.  A MTH impeller will work with Lionel and also in the reverse.  The new Legacy Lionel smoke units use a plastic smoke chamber and a different size impeller.  That impeller still fits the same shaft.  It seems a bit smaller in height, 

I have been using the Lionel wicking in both Lionel and MTH.  I reaganize the wicking and it works great in both.  Stay away from some of the crazy things guys swear by.  Use Lionel or MTH wicking and you will be OK.  Recently, MTH introduced a new wick that is like a piece of old rope with the ends flared.  I was doubtful but after talking to guys who use it and Jeff Strank at MTH, I did the following.  I recently did an MTH Hudson PS-2 upgrade for my good friend Locolawyer.  The results were very good.  All you do is spread the heaters, put it between them and pinch the heaters back on the wicking.  It is better than anything I have ever used.  Great smoke.  I am on the road all day but if anyone needs a photo of the new MTH wick, let me know and I will get to it tonight.

This post that Eric started would be a good one to save.  Some good information he passed on.

One other piece of advice is that you need to monitor the screw length to remount the motors.  As some of the new motors are made by different manufacturers, one changed the dimensions of the rotor to can clearance.  Long screws will short out the motor.

It is easy to shorten the screws with nipers.  Just make sure the impeller rotates freely, and no ground of the terminals to the case when mounted. 

I would also recommend with MTH engines that if the engine has been used alot with smoke, and the motor is starting to whine, you may want to just spend $6 to replace the motor.  Smoke is integrated on the PS-2/3 boards and smoke fans are known to blow fets and audio amps when they get older and start to short.  G

After seeing Eric's video, last night I worked on my MTH Steam Engine from 2003 because it is whining a lot.  I oiled the motor, but did not stop the whining.  I replaced the wicking because it was brown and charred.  I am surprised that the engine was even producing smoke because it was badly charred, but now it smokes better.  Does MTH usually have motors in stock?  Does anyone know the part number? I have heard in the past that sometimes it is hard to get parts from them.

Marty posted the number of the new improved Lionel motor, it's compatible with either Lionel or MTH smoke units.

Lionel part number 6101154130.

MTH Fan motor part number:

Jim

Jim

Thanks for the part number.

Ken

That MTH motor is not the same as the new one Lionel uses. 

Marty, would it work in place of the new Lionel motor?  Do you know if it's better or worse?

Thanks Marty, that's what I was trying to get to.

John, one more.  Lionel also uses 6108057240.  It is the same as 6108057220 but a bit shorter.  All will interchange.

Thanks Marty.

After reading about this fan noise issue here and in other posts, I have wondered if anyone has ever tried Bostik-Never Seize? A fine artist's brush would be able to work enough around the shaft for it to penetrate.

I have used the basic stuff for years and now happen to have a can of the nuclear grade (2700 degrees) from a friend in the industry. It's designed for shaft and bushing applications( and others). The basic grade would withstand the heat that the shaft bushing friction would create and not burn off like oil.