Fred Icken Brass models

I think this is a "2-Rail" locomotive.      2 Rail steam locos generally pick up power from one rail from the locomotive wheels on one side, and the other rail from tender wheels on the other side.   The remaining wheels on both are insulated.     It also probably is set up to run on straight DC current NOT AC as older 3 rail locos.  

There was an article in O Gauge Railroading many, many years ago about Fred Icken locos and I think it mentioned all as 2 rail.

Thank you for the information! I will have to dig deeper for the article.  Being a (2) rail makes sense, since most of the locomotives in the Quaker square collection were 2 rail. 

The wire to the tender goes into the small slot, but doesn't connect to anything after that. I will have to figure out which wheels and on which truck are the pickups and find a way to run the current to the wire.  

 

The wire to the tender goes into the small slot, but doesn't connect to anything after that. I will have to figure out which wheels and on which truck are the pickups and find a way to run the current to the wire.  

It is connected to the entire tender, and the uninsulated wheels themselves through the truck and connection mounting on one side of the tender serve as direct electrical pick up from that side of the rail.

You lucky dog.  A piece of history!

Any chance of better photos?

Quaker Square, sounds like the remnants of the Mack Lowery collection and later layout display, Mack was probably the major buyer for most of the custom builders back in the late 40s and 50s. JMO

I too have a Fred Icken loco, see attached photos - my dad bought it in the 1960's, it was made in the late 1930's. Fred Icken had an entire line of locos, really handsome well made models. Mine is a 3 rail version, used an outside 3rd rail for power, but otherwise O Scale. My dad migrated into O Scale exclusively later in life, this was one of the few models of his I kept. This is a PRR E6s, I just love the hand painted lettering.

Jim

bob2 posted:

You lucky dog.  A piece of history!

Any chance of better photos?

Yeah I remembered seeing these models all over Quaker square when I was a kid. I was very excited to finally get my hands on one.  Yes! Many more pictures to come as I begin to take it apart and clean it up!

Jim Waterman posted:

I too have a Fred Icken loco, see attached photos - my dad bought it in the 1960's, it was made in the late 1930's. Fred Icken had an entire line of locos, really handsome well made models. Mine is a 3 rail version, used an outside 3rd rail for power, but otherwise O Scale. My dad migrated into O Scale exclusively later in life, this was one of the few models of his I kept. This is a PRR E6s, I just love the hand painted lettering.

Jim

Wow that one looks amazing! How did you find out when it was built? 

Is there any chance mine is set up the same way using the third rail for power? It's hard to tell right now if he locomotive  is missing any parts 

There seemed to be no end of brass Atlantics offered in the early period of O scale 2 rail.   I have 2 from the era, both different from the Ickens pictured, one from All Nation, the other of unknown origin but guessing it's immediate PW from Japan.  BTW, I couldn't live without Jim's E6 if I ever saw one for sale. The popularity of the Atlantic with modelers must have been strong back in the 30's and 40's, long after most builders stopped making the real thing.  Many were still in use in commuter service back then so they must have held a fondness with modelers.  After all, we are inherently a nostalgic lot.

Your Icken appears to be based on a Alco-Brooks A9, although the steam chest is all wrong.  Maybe it's a later upgrade made to the original driveline ( valve train moved outside of the drivers ) and modeled by Icken from its then current configuration.  A number of railroads had A9's, but # 275 was in the Buffalo and Susquehanna roster, before B&O took over and renumbered with 4 digits.

JMHO, the quality of Ickens sure appears to be a few steps above the regular old doorstop.  I'd be proud to have one handed down by a relative.

Bruce

BTW. Outside third rail discussion always gets around to the infamous John Armstrong.  Engines of the type have electrical pickup "feet" protruding from both sides. 

Otherwise, the engine is simple 2 rail DC with the loco conducting current from one rail and the tender conducting the other.

Bruce

JNichols,

Looking at your photos, your model is equipped with a K&D "universal wound field motor".  These were the most common motors used for O scale before WWII.  Universal motors have a wound field instead of a permanent magnet and require a bridge rectifier to be wired to them to run on DC power and be reversable by throwing the reverse switch on a basic DC power supply.  I can see an original Selenium rectifier mounted under the rear of the motor.  Without a rectifier the engine can be wired to run in one direction only on DC.  If this was a model that came into my shop the first thing to go would be the Selenium rectifier replaced by a modern silicon rectifier rated at least 5 amps.  Old Selenium rectifier have a tendency to failure and, I am told, can be dangerous to your health if they begin to smoke.  A new rectifier will run you about $5.00.

The motor was called a universal motor because it can also be wired to run on 16VAC.

I have reworked several locos from this era and some collectors of such locos want to keep the original K&D motors in their model.  This is OK but be aware that the loco will draw a lot more current with the AC motor and rectifier.  I would expect your model will draw upwards of 2.5 amps with the original motor and rectifier.  With a new DC motor properly set up you could expect the model to draw 1 amp or less.

As far as two rail is concerned, if you have a VOM meter or continuity tester, you should put the model on its back and put the test leads across the driver tires with the meter set on ohms.  If the loco is insulated for 2 rail the meter should not indicate any continuity.  If a reading is obtained your drivers may not be insulated for 2 rail operation.  Same goes for the tender truck, pilot and trailing truck wheel sets.

Someone above said that Icken did not make outside third rail models and I am sure that is not correct because I have 2 railed some of them for others.

Your locomotive is certainly worth restoring to operation as it is a piece of O Scale history.

I am currently reworking a Scalecraft PRR K-4s that was probably first put together before WWII.  I had to re-machine the drivers and all of the other wheel sets for 2 rail operation and I installed a Pittman can motor to power the loco through its original worm and gear set.  It is a quiet mechanism!  This model will stay in my collection and has quite a history and was given to me by Jim DeBruin in pieces.  I think Bob Turner embossed rivets on the brass tender shell for a previous owner.  Whoever did it they did a nice job!  The Scalecraft K-4 tender did not have embossed rivets.

I have shut down my shop for outside work until September and this is the first model of my own to be worked on from my "to do" list.

I hope the above information is of some use to you.

Joe Foehrkolb

Baldwin Forge & Machine

brwebster posted:

There seemed to be no end of brass Atlantics offered in the early period of O scale 2 rail.   I have 2 from the era, both different from the Ickens pictured, one from All Nation, the other of unknown origin but guessing it's immediate PW from Japan.  BTW, I couldn't live without Jim's E6 if I ever saw one for sale. The popularity of the Atlantic with modelers must have been strong back in the 30's and 40's, long after most builders stopped making the real thing.  Many were still in use in commuter service back then so they must have held a fondness with modelers.  After all, we are inherently a nostalgic lot.

Your Icken appears to be based on a Alco-Brooks A9, although the steam chest is all wrong.  Maybe it's a later upgrade made to the original driveline ( valve train moved outside of the drivers ) and modeled by Icken from its then current configuration.  A number of railroads had A9's, but # 275 was in the Buffalo and Susquehanna roster, before B&O took over and renumbered with 4 digits.

JMHO, the quality of Ickens sure appears to be a few steps above the regular old doorstop.  I'd be proud to have one handed down by a relative.

Bruce

 

Bear in mind the doorstops were produced in quantity so were essentially fully cast loco and sometimes tender shells with little added detail while custom builders like Icken fabricated boilers, cabs etc from brass with as little or as much detail as the buyer was willing to pay for the model ordered. JMO

rrjjf posted:

JNichols,

Looking at your photos, your model is equipped with a K&D "universal wound field motor".  These were the most common motors used for O scale before WWII.  Universal motors have a wound field instead of a permanent magnet and require a bridge rectifier to be wired to them to run on DC power and be reversable by throwing the reverse switch on a basic DC power supply.  I can see an original Selenium rectifier mounted under the rear of the motor.  Without a rectifier the engine can be wired to run in one direction only on DC.  If this was a model that came into my shop the first thing to go would be the Selenium rectifier replaced by a modern silicon rectifier rated at least 5 amps.  Old Selenium rectifier have a tendency to failure and, I am told, can be dangerous to your health if they begin to smoke.  A new rectifier will run you about $5.00.

The motor was called a universal motor because it can also be wired to run on 16VAC.

I have reworked several locos from this era and some collectors of such locos want to keep the original K&D motors in their model.  This is OK but be aware that the loco will draw a lot more current with the AC motor and rectifier.  I would expect your model will draw upwards of 2.5 amps with the original motor and rectifier.  With a new DC motor properly set up you could expect the model to draw 1 amp or less.

As far as two rail is concerned, if you have a VOM meter or continuity tester, you should put the model on its back and put the test leads across the driver tires with the meter set on ohms.  If the loco is insulated for 2 rail the meter should not indicate any continuity.  If a reading is obtained your drivers may not be insulated for 2 rail operation.  Same goes for the tender truck, pilot and trailing truck wheel sets.

Someone above said that Icken did not make outside third rail models and I am sure that is not correct because I have 2 railed some of them for others.

Your locomotive is certainly worth restoring to operation as it is a piece of O Scale history.

I am currently reworking a Scalecraft PRR K-4s that was probably first put together before WWII.  I had to re-machine the drivers and all of the other wheel sets for 2 rail operation and I installed a Pittman can motor to power the loco through its original worm and gear set.  It is a quiet mechanism!  This model will stay in my collection and has quite a history and was given to me by Jim DeBruin in pieces.  I think Bob Turner embossed rivets on the brass tender shell for a previous owner.  Whoever did it they did a nice job!  The Scalecraft K-4 tender did not have embossed rivets.

I have shut down my shop for outside work until September and this is the first model of my own to be worked on from my "to do" list.

I hope the above information is of some use to you.

Joe Foehrkolb

Baldwin Forge & Machine

 

 

 

 

Thank you! yes this has been very helpful! Please share photos of your PRR k4!

 So am I able to run this locomotive with a regular Tech11 train power 027 AC controller?

hibar posted:

brwebster posted:

There seemed to be no end of brass Atlantics offered in the early period of O scale 2 rail.   I have 2 from the era, both different from the Ickens pictured, one from All Nation, the other of unknown origin but guessing it's immediate PW from Japan.  BTW, I couldn't live without Jim's E6 if I ever saw one for sale. The popularity of the Atlantic with modelers must have been strong back in the 30's and 40's, long after most builders stopped making the real thing.  Many were still in use in commuter service back then so they must have held a fondness with modelers.  After all, we are inherently a nostalgic lot.

Your Icken appears to be based on a Alco-Brooks A9, although the steam chest is all wrong.  Maybe it's a later upgrade made to the original driveline ( valve train moved outside of the drivers ) and modeled by Icken from its then current configuration.  A number of railroads had A9's, but # 275 was in the Buffalo and Susquehanna roster, before B&O took over and renumbered with 4 digits.

JMHO, the quality of Ickens sure appears to be a few steps above the regular old doorstop.  I'd be proud to have one handed down by a relative.

Bruce

 

Bear in mind the doorstops were produced in quantity so were essentially fully cast loco and sometimes tender shells with little added detail while custom builders like Icken fabricated boilers, cabs etc from brass with as little or as much detail as the buyer was willing to pay for the model ordered. JMO

Do you think this model would be powered with an AC or a DC powerpack controller? 

Judging by the keen eye of Joe, who spotted the selenium rectifier , you'd power it off of AC.  Probably wise to change the rectifier out with a new one as suggested.  Having heard the horror stories about SR's crapping out in old radios, you wouldn't want to experience the odor they produce upon failure.  Most likely it's already kaput after all these years.

I too, would enjoy seeing Joe's K4s.  I'm currently working on one by Max Gray which was also a basket case, minus a tender.

Bruce

We use bridge rectifiers as reversers on DC layouts and series wound motors.  These same motors work on AC, but you need an "E-unit" (not related to a famous religion) or a reversing switch.

JNichols,

Since your model has a rectifier it was set up to run on DC power.  As Bob T says above, to run the model on AC you will need an electro-mechanical reverse unit (E unit) similar to the ones that are in Lionel locos.  Alternatively, I know there is a solid state circuit available (Dallee Electronics?) to do this but being a DC man, I have no experience with them.  My local hobby shop installs a lot of them in newerAC locos when the fancy electronics that come with the models burn up to keep the models operating on AC.

Joe

Interesting read! When I was involved with O Scale in 60-70s the Icken locos were often mentioned! we had a club layout 40' X 120' with a 40' x 80' "leg" ran all Gargraves track and hand built switches. Ran DC current but depending of loco either inside 3rd rail or  2 rail. I have a Joe Dorazio built LV Wyoming locomotive he built for me in 1969. that is set up for both 2 & 3 rail.  

My apologies for assuming that the rectifier was used in AC operation.  These days, it's hard to tell the AC's from the DC's.

Bruce

rrjjf posted:

JNichols,

Since your model has a rectifier it was set up to run on DC power.  As Bob T says above, to run the model on AC you will need an electro-mechanical reverse unit (E unit) similar to the ones that are in Lionel locos.  Alternatively, I know there is a solid state circuit available (Dallee Electronics?) to do this but being a DC man, I have no experience with them.  My local hobby shop installs a lot of them in newerAC locos when the fancy electronics that come with the models burn up to keep the models operating on AC.

Joe

So this Powepack Wont work for the locomotive? 

No.  However, an AC powerpack is easy to convert.  Purchase a moderately large bridge rectifier (5-6 amps at 50 v will do - about three bucks) and a DPDT toggle switch (under three bucks).

The rectifier is marked.  AC goes in to the pins marked "AC" or with a "squiggle" and DC comes out the pins marked +/-.  Easy.

The DPDT switch receives the DC on the two center pins.  The output is a bit tricky, but just blindly follow me on this:

Think of the outer pins on the switch as the corners of a box, with the center pins on the vertical sides of that box.  Solder or screw a wire on each bottom corner, then criss-cross the wires to the opposite corner, forming an "X" across the switch.  Then the wires continue off the top corners to the track.  Done.

Somebody post a picture, and replace all those words?

bob2 posted:

No.  However, an AC powerpack is easy to convert.  Purchase a moderately large bridge rectifier (5-6 amps at 50 v will do - about three bucks) and a DPDT toggle switch (under three bucks).

The rectifier is marked.  AC goes in to the pins marked "AC" or with a "squiggle" and DC comes out the pins marked +/-.  Easy.

The DPDT switch receives the DC on the two center pins.  The output is a bit tricky, but just blindly follow me on this:

Think of the outer pins on the switch as the corners of a box, with the center pins on the vertical sides of that box.  Solder or screw a wire on each bottom corner, then criss-cross the wires to the opposite corner, forming an "X" across the switch.  Then the wires continue off the top corners to the track.  Done.

Somebody post a picture, and replace all those words?

http://www.allelectronics.com/...dge-rectifier/1.html   Switches from Radio shack