frustration with new CC 726 engine

I don't know this particular engine, but I have two suggestions.  First, I have several older traditional 4-X-X steamers on which the front truck can actually turn 180 deg around - in a couple of cases not easily, but once that occurs, it will fit on the track and run but tends to de-rail more easily.  You might check if yours is like this . . .

Then there is the RMT track.  The loco may just not like it.  I had heard there was a difference in diameters of "O-31" track among manufactuters - Lionel measuring center rail to center rail and others from outside to outside (meaning in Lionel's book it is O-29.5 curves.  Don't know if this might be the case.

This engine's grandpappy had this problem from time to time.

I found it to be solved by checking the spring pressure on the 2 wheel leading truck.

If it is too weak I stretched the spring a bit, not too much now, and tried again.

Also I found this problem compounded on 027 track, as this is a O31 radius engine, so I wonder if LIONEL has it set for 036 curves, best check this.

Lastly, I wonder if this is a copy of the Century Club 726, mine came with no spring here, but I found one and added it, no problems now with that beautiful engine.

Rod

Hey E-Rock where do you live?

Look at the front pilot wheels carefully and see how much play there is side to side where the wheel outer flanges touch the rail sides. If this is too tight, or way too loose, you will get derailing. It may be that you need to adjust that wheel gauge a bit either direction. I seen post war engines do this too. Don't clean your track with mineral spirits. It may make the rails slick and might damage the rubber tries. Find some alcohol.

Rob

Hi E-Rock,  Sorry its not running on the 031 track.  I have had no problems on the 036 Lionel Fastrack (its about 36 inches by 10 feet oval). I have it going full speed and it really is fast around the curves.  So, it may be one of those cases that its says it will run on 031 curves, but may not run on all brands of 031. Since we don't have the Lionel 031 Fastrack yet, we don't know how it will run on that track,  If someone has some 031 tubular, perhaps they can comment.  the tubular track would allow the magnatraction to hold the engine on the track and perhaps keep it steady around the curves. 

A lot of single axle front pilots can derail. Usually you stretch the spring to create a little more downward pressure, that is if it can be removed. Within the last few months I bought an unrun Lionel Berkshire from the early 1980's it did the same thing soon after I started running it. I bought a replacement from a newer Lionel model, the pilot spring was longer, plus in had a short wire that was attached to the back of the pilot and was to be attached underneath the screw that held the pilot. Acts like an shock absorber, keeping the pilot from hopping side to side etc. Hasn't derailed since.

the pilot on my 225E was derailing, and al it needed was the retaining screw losened a tad.

I have been running mine at a pretty good clip on Fastrack 036 and 048. 

Does it derail in just one location?

Thanks for the help, guys.  A few observations:

- our track curve dimensions are 29-7/8" center-to-center, 31-1/4" outside-rail-to-outside-rail.

- engine will easily fly off curve and topple over at only moderate speed

- despite what the user manual says, this engine DOES NOT appear to have any hint of magnetraction that I can detect

- spring on pilot seems good (full-length, not too springy, not too stiff)

- there is a "wear line" forming on the body underside above the pilot spring "bolt"  (Normal?)

- very small amount (1-2mm) of play between pilot wheels and inside edges of rails

- derails at multiple spots on loop, but usually going into, or coming out of, a curve.

- our 2343 CC F3 set runs flawlessly on the same loop.

We just set up a small test loop of 036 Fastrack.  It seems slightly more stable thru the curves, but it will still topple off the track at moderate-to-high speed.  Curiously, it went around the Fastrack loop multiple times at a pretty good speed, but when I blew the whistle thru the curve (did not touch the throttle), it flew off.

Also, is there any chance this is a lubrication issue?  As I mentioned, we did not lube the drive wheels yet because we're not clear which points need oil vs. grease.  As mentioned, we did oil the pilot wheels and trailing truck wheels.

And for the gentleman who asked: we are located outside Madison, WI.  And like Dave B., our set came from Eastside Trains.

That's good it went around the 036 curves,  I think the whistle may send a little pulse of power that could speed the engine.  I had noted in a separate post that the Magnatraction was very weak, not sure what word is less than a hint, but when I put a nail next to the drivers, it sort of went to the direction of them (sort of like an Ouija Board), but could not hold the nail like my early 1950's 736 does  -- it still grips the nail like a vice grip.

I suspect that the engine should be run at slower speeds, especially if you have curves next to an edge on a table top.  Perhaps others can post their experiences on carpet layouts, before someone looses one over the edge on to a hard floor....

Pressing the whistle button sends a burst of DC current to the engine usually causing a noticeable speed up in its travel  while the button is depressed..

The only thing you use grease on should be the gears inside.  Any axle bearings, rods, etc... should be oiled sparingly.  Coming off the track should not be a lube problem though.

Also check to make sure the pilot truck screw is tight.  That wear line is normal, even on the postwar locomotives.  I occasionally put a small drop of oil there just to make sure it is swinging freely.  You may also want to do the same where the screw passes through the truck.

If you haven't already, I would get down on the floor and double check to make sure the  pilot wheels are actually sitting on the rails, and push it around the curve to see if you can pinpoint the problem.

Blowing the whistle will speed the trains up a bit.  

I've had other locos, particularly older ones - that change speed when the whistle is blown - not sure why but it does happen to some.

Your "O-31" track being 29 7/8 center to center  means it is O-30 Lionel's book, since they measure center to center.  That 1 1/8 inch difference is probably the reason it almost behaves itself but not quite - Lionel probably engineered it to be a close thing but do 31.  It apparently does not do 30" - a shame but this is sort of a loophole loco specifications - Lionel says O-31 and means its O-31, not others.

Most Post War transformers have a booster circuit that add some AC voltage along with the DC to trip the whistle relay. The extra AC was to compensate for the current draw of the whistle so the engine would maintain speed. 

Pete

Thanks again, guys...I really appreciate the help and insight.

Very interesting about the slight speed burst when pressing the whistle button...I didn't know that.  My naked eye really can't perceive any apparent speed increase, but I believe it based on the behavior of this engine.  It seemed to me yesterday that I could run the engine fairly continuously with my sons, but then when we would blow the whistle, things got dicey.  I thought maybe it was my imagination, but I'm guessing this may be contributing to the derailing issue.

As far as the curve diameter...I was under the impression that Lionel's specified measurement for tubular track was outside-rail-to-outside-rail (different from Fastrack, which I know is center-to-center).  In fact, I have a box of rusty old "Lionel NY" tubular track in the basement.  I just assembled a half-curve with four pieces of this old 0-31 track...and it measures precisely 31" outside-rail-to-outside-rail.  So, I'm not convinced the 31-1/4" curve diameter of the RMT track is the issue here...but it may be the absolute minimum this 726 loco can handle - and at moderate speeds only.  As I said earlier, it does appear to run a bit smoother thru the 0-36 Fastrack curves....

I'll try Jake's suggestion of adding a drop of oil to the pilot pivot head.  In the meantime, can you guys tell me how to interpret Lionel's lubrication diagram below?  I just don't understand exactly where to add grease vs. oil for the drive wheels and rods.

Compare one of your freight car wheel sets to the front pilot wheels on the curve. Does the engine front wheels have more play side to side than the freight cars? Are the pilot wheels closer together than the freight car wheels? If so, you may need to spread the pilot wheels outward a bit. When you say the engine flies off the track, do you have the tender and some cars on line with it, or just the engine? Even Post war engines will roll right off the track in narrow curves if too fast and no weight behind them.

Rob

Even though the owner's manual may state it has Magnetraction, I don't believe that the actual model has it; I think it's only traction tires that are on the rearmost driver wheels.

The  Lionel "Baldwin" disc-type wheels that your model has are two-piece; regular solid die-cast wheels with nickel-plated "tires/rims."  The nickel-plated rims are non-magnetic, so it would defeat, if not greatly lessen, any advantages magnetic wheels would have if it had it at all.  The postwar versions with the Baldwin discs (and any other wheels that had the nickel-plated rims/tires) were the same way (no magnetraction).

I concurr that the only things you would apply grease to are the gears themselves, and lubricating oil on the bearings, linkages, pickup rollers, and the front and rear pilot trucks.

How stable is the track itself? This is track on carpet, so are the joints level? Make sure there aren't any dips in the curves. A heavy long wheel-base engine such as this will find faults faster than diesels which are more flexible on the track. Any humps or dips in the track will cause a derailment. Some of this is caused by the engine itself as it presses the track down where it is. You might want to try placing some cardboard under the track to stabilize it better and see if things improve.

Peter

Peter - this is exactly what I thought at first.  Our under-the-tree layout (two basic independent ovals) is half on a rug, half off.  So I experimented with cardboard strips yesterday to make sure the transition from rug to floor was as level/stable as possible.  I also shimmed the curves a bit on the outside edges to see if it would help...but it didn't really help much at all.

I'm thinking this 726 just isn't happy on 0-31 curves.  I've now oiled the pilot screw head, (per Jake's suggestion) and also put a drop of oil on the rear truck frame contact-point with the body.  I also oiled the connecting points on the drive rods - no more squeaking!  It's now about as quiet and smooth-rolling as when we first ran it out of the box yesterday morning, but it's still very dicey through the 0-31 curves.  In fact, we really are not comfortable running it on the inner-loop at all...it only runs acceptably at slow/moderate speed on the outside loop, where a 10" straight separates the two 90-degree curves.  It will only navigate the inner full 180-degree curves at barely-adequate speed.  At even moderate speeds, it will fly off the inner-loop curves.

I also carefully examined the area on the rear-most drive-wheel where the bit of nickel-plating has flaked off and the copper-colored base metal is now showing.  It appears that the front corners of the trailing truck have likely been knocking into the wheel (on derailments and/or handling), thereby causing this damage.  This is very irritating, especially since it happened within the first 24 hours of ownership (and we treat our trains with patience and respect).

Overall, despite the great looks and wonderful whistle/bell sounds, I'm disappointed with this locomotive.  The surprise lack of magnetraction, coupled with the poor 0-31 performance and easily-damaged drive-wheel plating leaves quite a sour taste in my mouth.  But more troubling to me: my son's initial excitement with the engine has now waned considerably, only one day after Santa's surprise delivery.  

E, I would think the nickel plating flaking off is a warranty issue. It should not flake off even if struck if it was properly applied. 

Pete

Just for fun, try removing the pilot truck and see how that works. If that doesn't change anything, try removing the rear truck. Sometimes the rear truck can be a little stiff or get in a bind, and that will derail the front truck. Hopefully we can start to isolate the problem.