GG1's in modern excursion service

Hot Water posted:

Trussman posted:

Dominic Mazoch posted:

Is there a reason the GG1's got frame cracks?  Bad metal?  Running on bad tracks?  Design flaw?  And when did the cracks start?

Maybe this'll help understand why the G's became fatigued.

 After 25 yrs of service #4800  logged 2,795,577 miles.

By 1976 a full three quarters of the G's were still on the roster, at ages ranging from 33 to 42 yrs old. 

Lots of EMD "E Units" had far more accrued total mileage than THAT, in more years of service. One example is Atlantic Coast Line E3A #501, which services at the North Carolina Transportation Museum, Spencer, NC. She had accrued over 6,200,000 miles by the time she was removed from service in about 1972 (about 33 years of active service on the ACL). The EMC/EMD passenger truck frames didn't crack, either.

Might be relevant to note that GG1's had short-duration power ratings more than four times that of a 2000HP  E3.

So,,,,,,,that's why the frames cracked?

All this history about cracks in the frames, where exactly did the cracking occur? At the journals? The articulation joint? I've never heard explained the location. That may give some insight why it occurred.

It might be interesting to note that some of the GG1's built in the mid/late 30's were retired as early as the 1966-1968 time frame.  The last GG1 was built in 1943.  All were retired by 1983.

They also weighed 475,000 pounds.  That a lot of weight for a single locomotive and probably contributed to the fatigue in the frames.  You'd be hard pressed to find a contemporary locomotive in daily service today that weighs as much as a GG1.

Rusty

C W Burfle posted:

If bringing a locomotive back into service would require the replacement of all the control systems and motors, what is the point? If these things are replaced, is it still an historic GG-1?

I was at a WWII air show and they had the only flying B-29 there.  They said the 4 engines were newly engineered because the OEM versions were not reliable.  Yet they still called it a B-29.

The USS Constitution, the Navy's oldest commissioned ship is still called the Constitution even though there is a very little original wood left.

If any of you philanthropists out there decide to take on this project, let me know and my son will be the first volunteer in line to help.   4935 is his most favorite engine and he just can't understand why someone has not already restored one by now.

Have Fun!  Ron

Our company uses variable frequency drives (VFD) and AC motors to test alternators. VFDs take three phase 60Hz power and convert to directly to DC without a transformer, then recreate a sine-wave by pulse width modulation. The sharp rise time of the generated wave form can cause a high voltage difference between successive windings of the motor, especially near the ends (V=L di/dt). So "inverter grade" AC motors are used. Then, AC motors made to run off of line voltage come in standard sizes, and I doubt any of these standard motors would fit.

So my guess is that you just can't pop modern electronics into a GG1 and expect the original motors to work, you might have to whatever EMD is using with their engines that end in AC are using.

It may be possible to find a VFD or inverter that could handle the 600 VDC of some trolley systems. Or maybe again maybe EMD has something. Whatever it is, it is an engineering project.

Ok.... Let's add some fun to the debate on restoration.

Is this an F-7 or a GP-38?

Hot Water posted:

Trussman posted:

Dominic Mazoch posted:

Is there a reason the GG1's got frame cracks?  Bad metal?  Running on bad tracks?  Design flaw?  And when did the cracks start?

Maybe this'll help understand why the G's became fatigued.

 After 25 yrs of service #4800  logged 2,795,577 miles.

By 1976 a full three quarters of the G's were still on the roster, at ages ranging from 33 to 42 yrs old.

 

Lots of EMD "E Units" had far more accrued total mileage than THAT, in more years of service. One example is Atlantic Coast Line E3A #501, which services at the North Carolina Transportation Museum, Spencer, NC. She had accrued over 6,200,000 miles by the time she was removed from service in about 1972 (about 33 years of active service on the ACL). The EMC/EMD passenger truck frames didn't crack, either.

1.  Amtrak started on May 1, 1971, so did this E3A run on some early Amtrak trains?

2.  The SCL was in 1967, so she did run under the SCL flag for about 5 years!

Those early E units must have been tanks!

Ron045 posted:

Ok.... Let's add some fun to the debate on restoration.

Is this an F-7 or a GP-38?

F38-2!

It is what ever the original frame, car body was or is.  Just like a car, a Camaro is still a Camaro or a Mustang a Mustang. A B29 with modern engines is still a B29 and an F unit the same.  Repairs, upgrades etc don't change the oroiginal designation.

See Trussman's post above.  We now have another discussion topic:  When do repairs/replacements mean we  no longer have the original.

RJR posted:

See Trussman's post above.  We now have another discussion topic:  When do repairs/replacements mean we  no longer have the original.

 

Locomotives stopped being "original" the first time they went into the shops for repair.  There isn't a single preserved locomotive that's original.

Even the Pioneer Zephyr had to have it's cab replaced in 1939 after a head on collision with a freight train.  There went the collector's value...

Rusty

jim pastorius posted:

A B29 with modern engines is still a B29

Actually, that makes it a B50.

My Uncle had an axe that was actually George Wahington's famous axe.  Over the years it's had several new handles when one broke or was worn out and a few years back we had to replace the axe head.  But it was still George Washington's original axe, right?

Does this remind you of some of the above arguments?

Paul Fischer

jim pastorius posted:

It is what ever the original frame, car body was or is.  Just like a car, a Camaro is still a Camaro or a Mustang a Mustang. A B29 with modern engines is still a B29 and an F unit the same.  Repairs, upgrades etc don't change the oroiginal designation.

Then if that is the case, the ATSF should never have called the F unit rebuilds the "CF7".

Locomotives stopped being "original" the first time they went into the shops for repair.  There isn't a single preserved locomotive that's original.

I guess we'll just have to disagree on what "original" means. When they performed repairs, they replaced worn or damaged parts with like replacements. Or if the replacement part was an upgrade, the locomotive was still using the same basic technology, and likely had more or less the same operating characteristics.

To me, a wholesale replacement of the control and drive systems would be something completely different.

But then again, the only folks who would probably notice any differences would be those in the cab. And most of them would probably be happy with the modernization.

C W Burfle posted:

Locomotives stopped being "original" the first time they went into the shops for repair.  There isn't a single preserved locomotive that's original.

I guess we'll just have to disagree on what "original" means. When they performed repairs, they replaced worn or damaged parts with like replacements. Or if the replacement part was an upgrade, the locomotive was still using the same basic technology, and likely had more or less the same operating characteristics.

Please remember that all that stuff in the diesel electric locomotives are serial numbered. Thus, changing out, say one cylinder head in the prime mover, ore one power contactor in the electrical cabinet, or one traction motor in a truck, then the "original serial numbered item" is gone. Some 30 or more years ago, I was involved in showing/restoring 1965 thru 1967 Corvettes.  I recall at one NCRS "show", my 1967 427/435HP coup was being "judged/inspected" for originality. The Judge REALLY knew his stuff, and was even checking for original seat belts, tail-light lenses, transmission, rear differential, and of course the factory original L89 427/435HP V8. When he got around to the tires, I noticed on his sheet, that he "dinged me" for having "reproduction" red-stripe tires. Even though one is NOT supposed to talk to the Judge, I had to say SOMETHING about the tires. I respectfully pointed out that the factory red-stripe tires were definitely NOT reproduction, but ORIGINAL 1967 factory red-stripes, and suggested that he look more carefully to find the Federal mandated "DOT" inspection/certification molded into the tire sidewalls. He apologized upon discovering that all four tires were indeed "1967 original", and then confidentially ask me how I had accomplished THAT feat. I explained that I had a separate set or reproduction re-stripe tires, mounted on new Corvette "Rally Sport" wheels, which I used for driving the car. The factory originals were NEVER used for driving, but ONLY for shows, as I would jack-up the car and then changeout the reproductions for the REAL tires.

To me, a wholesale replacement of the control and drive systems would be something completely different.

But then again, the only folks who would probably notice any differences would be those in the cab. And most of them would probably be happy with the modernization.

Some 30 or more years ago, I was involved in showing/restoring 1965 thru 1967 Corvettes

Yes, I have friends who are involved with restored Corvettes, so I've heard about the importance of serial numbers, and things like tires and fan belts.
But how many other cars are held to such high standards?
And a train locomotive is not a Corvette.

OK, how about this one:  If a GG1 is restored, would Amtrak or Metro North let you run the thing on their railroads?  If not, forgetaboutit!

fisch330 posted:

My Uncle had an axe that was actually George Wahington's famous axe.  Over the years it's had several new handles when one broke or was worn out and a few years back we had to replace the axe head.  But it was still George Washington's original axe, right?

Does this remind you of some of the above arguments?

Yes. It reminds me of the exact same story, referencing the exact same axe, that was posted on page 1 of this thread and which you apparently didn't see.

Dominic Mazoch posted:

OK, how about this one:  If a GG1 is restored, would Amtrak or Metro North let you run the thing on their railroads?  If not, forgetaboutit!

As long as the guts would have to compatible with contemporary standards, could always try the South Shore or Metra Electric...

Rusty

This thread has gotten sort of stupid !!

jim pastorius posted:

This thread has gotten sort of stupid !!

Just my opinion but, I could not see it taking any other direction.