Got the dreaded blinking cab lights

I can't imagine that they'd void the warranty for adding the decals!  If that's the case, I just voided the warranty on both of mine!

try contacting Mike Reagan.  what is the worse that could happen.  then you can find out how much they are going to charge when it is out of warranty and let us know because my northerns are out of  warranty.

thanks

I don't think he has a problem.  I'd be real disappointed in Lionel if putting a couple of decals on the shell voided the warranty, that would be a sure way to get me to buy more MTH stuff!

I'm not going to do that until I've exhausted my three re-sets. I may not even bother because there is no guarantee that I will get the same engine back. The last time I sent it in to be serviced under warranty they sent me someone else's. It had numerous missing a broken parts.

Have you considered something like the Mega-Steam Eliminator?  Since it has the effect of lubricating the fans for many folks, it might just solve the problem without taking the locomotive apart.

Call Lionel. They are great over the phone. Best help I have had in years repairing trains. Talk to the service department and tell them your name and what you are sending. They are promt to help and tell them what happened and that you would like it serviced and not a new unit sent because of the decals.

They listen! They care! They will help you...

Don't you read the manuals?

From the User's Manual for the Legacy K4.

Note that smoke-related errors can be reset a maximum of three times. On the third try, if the problem still persists, the smoke unit will be shut down and must be returned to Lionel Service for repair.

I was also told only Lionel can work on the Legacy engines and subways and not the local authorized dealers.

Is that true?

That's what a local dealer told me as well, so it may well be true.  I'm guessing that that only applies to warranty repairs.

Apparently a Lionel Service Station can determine problems with Legacy engines but if it is in one of the boards they need to be sent back to Lionel. They can't do anything with a Vision Line engine.

I'm using that in the engine now.

At this point the reset has worked and I'm not going to do anything unless I get to the point where the blinking lights continue blinking indicated that I can no longer use reset.

At that point I'll just replace the smoke unit.

One issue with these newer smoke units is they need a lot of fluid to wet the wick sufficiently. More than the 15-20 recommended in the manuals. That's why there are so many failures the wicks dry out and the unit overheats.

No its not. Vision Line engines have to go back to Ohio (at least last time I checked) but standard Legacy engines can be serviced buy an Authorized Service Center.

There are some boards that Lionel insists on a swap out, and the board has to be sent back before a new one is shipped, but you do not have to ship the entire engine.

I replaced the fan motor on my k4 after it got very loud and eventually quit giving the three cab light blinks.

Testing with the shell off revealed details as follows:

Removing power from the loco for several minutes will reset the diagnostic. Having said that the loco briefly tests the fan for a split second upon power up, if too much draw is sensed it will immediately shut down again.

Once the fan motor is replaced it automatically resets as the "self test" shows normal power draw.

I wondered if it was keying on power draw.

I plan on simply replacing the fan motors if I run into a problem, unless my lube job does the trick.

Specifically the fan motors are defective, on mine the fan rotated in an orbital motion like the bushings were out of round.Holding the fan in my fingers and getting it to spin powering the loco it vibrated my fingertips. The new one didn't vibrate at all.

Ordered a replacement fan motor and installed it and problem solved. No more "3 cab light blinks" and the smoke unit is now one of the quietist in my fleet.

FWIW, I oiled the fan bushings out of the box, that helped for a few months, then it quit altogether, the new fan is a night and day difference from the one that was in the loco, even at first power up.

I'm not sure that any of the TMCC locomotives have the blink codes, at least I've never seen any of them that have done that.  The Legacy added sensing and the smoke level adjustment, and I think this error handling came along with it.

The manual is a bit confusing.  Every power cycle the 3 failure limit is *reset*.   It is not a great idea to keep cycling power to keep retrying to get past the error code 3 retry limit.  If you get one error code (3 blink) on a power up; usually resetting (the second time) will correct the issue.   Could have been a bit of fluid on the impeller.

FWIW, I had the fan replaced at my local dealer, under warranty (Legacy Mikado). My Northern has worked flawlessly (both whistle steam and main stack)since day one! I checked the part # for all fan motors, and they appear to be the same for both engines, and the whistle steam.

*** A word of caution ***

>>Originally Posted by gunrunnerjohn:

>>Have you considered something like the Mega-Steam Eliminator?

I can't speak to if the aforementioned fluid has lubricating properties (actually all decent fluid is an oil based product and could be considered a lubricant).  Please note that getting enough fluid into the smoke unit to be able to reach the fan bearing will surely "flood" the smoke unit. 

If you flood the smoke unit and get fluid on the impeller, you will almost certainly stall the fan motor (they have very little torque) and cause a diagnostics failure.

Basically please don't overfill the smoke unit in hopes of getting fluid on the fan motor bearings to lubricate them.   This may actually cause a lot of downside, as smoke fluid gets a little more viscous when it cools down after the running session, causing drag on the impeller and stalling the fan next time you run the loco. 

I believe it is much better to replace any noisy or malfunctioning motors, or at minimum remove the motor to lubricate the bearings.

Jon, The fluid I mentioned apparently develops a "mist" that lubricates without flooding the smoke unit, there was a lengthy thread about it here.  I never recommended adding excessive fluid, that's the sure kiss of death for the unit.

I agree, if the motor is noisy, my first step is to try lubing it, many times that works.  If it fails, I replace it.

BTW, thanks for clarifying the smoke error behavior.

So, after you replaced the motor did the noise of the puffing stop. That is my issue. The puffing noise is so loud that it overwhelms the sound system. And yes I have it turned up to full volume.

If I turn off the sound completely and run the engine with the smoke unit turned on the noise from the puffing smoke unit almost sounds like a chuff.

I like this engine but if I can't resolve the noise issue when the puffing unit is in operation I'm afraid the only solution is to get rid of it. I've only had it since York in April and it is the only Legacy steamer that I have. I doubt if I would ever buy another one unless Lionel figures a better way to get puffing smoke.

Too bad they can't do it the same way MTH does via software but that would violate MTH's patent.

Puffing smoke?  I thought the problem engine was a U-Boat?  There's no puffing smoke in those.  If it has a noisy motor, I think we're beating a dead horse, send it back for warranty or open it up and replace the motor!

I know that. One of the members posted about his K4 being noisy. I just wanted to find out if when he replaced the fan motor did the annoying puffing noise go away as well.

OK, you lost me in the footwork.   My U-Boats have noisier motors than other locomotives, but I haven't seen any error codes.  I'm going to try the Mega-Steam Eliminator in them and see if it has an effect.  If not, I'll probably replace the motors.

FWIW, Lionel and MTH do basically the same thing for puffing smoke with fan driven smoke, they stop the motor.  I think MTH also gives them a small shot of reverse voltage to stop it quicker, Lionel doesn't do that.

Interesting John, thanks for the enlightenment.  I am still grappling with the way a "mist" would get to the fan bearing, considering the fan is blowing the air away from the fan over the element and out the stack.

Trainman9

Relative to the "K4" loco noise; I would not know the status, as engineering and customer service are in different locations.  The best answer to this question is from the owner of the "K4" or from a CS rep. 

I have asked CS for any failing smoke units (noise or otherwise) to be sent to engineering in CA for analysis.  I will let folks know what I find out.  We do listen and try to respond to issues.  Believe me that problems are frustrating to us as well; we want the product to be top notch.

Jon, I'm not entirely sure how the Mega-Steam actually accomplishes the bearing lube, apparently the folks at Mega-Steam were a bit surprised it works as well.  I mean to try it in my noisy U-Boats and see if it makes a difference.

I have to thank you again for the presence in the forums and the problem resolution efforts, that kind of effort is what keeps me buying Lionel stuff.  

As far as many of the noisy smoke units I've seen, they seem to be largely defective motors.  I've also seen the ones that get saturated with smoke fluid start to squeal, those seem to be solved by using some light oil most of the time.  I've yet to see the truly bad bearings that Rick O described, though maybe that's why the U-Boat fans are so noisy, I've yet to dig into that.

YES, you must have missed that in my post, it is now one of the quietist smoke units of any loco I own.

Your complaint about the K4 is the EXACT same problem I had.

Changing the fan on the newer Lionel smoke units is more tedious than units of the past. The smoke units in most of todays " modern lionel steamers" are a bit more compact and mount to the underside of the boiler instead of on the chassis like TMCC steamers.

If your comfortable tinkering its not an impossible repair. I'm by no means an expert train repairer but I changed it out with success.

The real issue IMO at least as far as steam loco smoke units with the supposed "lubricating of the fan motors" via the fluid is that the fan is in a completely seperate housing connected to the smoke resovior via aquarium tubing.

If legacy diesels use the "traditional" smoke unit setup then maybe the megasteam eliminator fluid would work.

Even if you were to flood the unit theres agood chance the fluid wouldn't make it onto the fan motor bushings anyway, the fan is mounted horizontally in its housing, any fuid that could make its way there through the tubing would likely run down and out the bottom of the housing.

Heres the parts breakdown, you get the "jist" of the design

Hers the unit assembled but you cab see the motor horizontally mounted next to the resovior.

I've oiled a few fan motor bushings over the years with lasting success. The fan motor in this k4 was only temporarily helped with the oil until it stopped altogether.

I managed to catch the excessive vibration as I held it in my fingers while trying to revive it, yes it was still being powered by the loco.

Curious, I held the replacement motor in my fingers to compare, practically no vibration.

These newer "shell mounted" smoke units also make the problem worse by amplifying the vibration through the shell.

Thanks Rick, I only have a couple of diesel Legacy locomotives with noisy motors, those being the U-Boats.  My Legacy K4 is as quiet as a mouse, as are my other Legacy steamers.  The exception is a bit more buzz from the Atlantic with the sound turned off, but not noticeable running.

The puffing noise on the K4 is actually louder that the chuff from the Railsounds. An yes, I have it at full volume.

Trainman9 must have me blocked for some reason..... really not that complicated, the blinking cab light, the noise from the smoke unit, and myself are all telling you the same thing. IT IS A BAD FAN MOTOR. I've gone into extensive length to explain having the same problem with the same loco and how to fix it.

Lionel is not going to say they installed 1000 bad smoke unit fan motors because they didn't know they were bad until folks started returning them for repairs caused by the same problem.

I've had numerous engines in with bad fans - just replace it!

I keep about 10 in stock just because of the recent failures in the last 2 years.

Have you ever cooked something your really good at, and then one day had a bad batch?  Well here you are, it just isn't fun when you spent all that money $$$.

Jim

Anyone have a source for discount fan motors?

I am going to ask the factory to add a drop of oil to the fan motor bearing when assembling the smoke units.  It may help...

I had the three blinking cab light in my Legacy K-4 couple weeks ago. Reset did nothing, since still under warranty I returned it to Lionel in Ohio. One week later it was back on my layout puffing smoke much better then before it broke. Very interesting is Lionel also replaced the whistle smoke unit, which also is smoking much better then before. I can see the whistle smoke very clear now from across the layout. Before I had to look very hard to see the smoke. AWESOME repair Lionel!

Bob