Should I even consider buying Lionel engines and then having to buy the Legacy system or should I just stick with MTH?

It all depends upon how badly you desire a particular Legacy (or TMCC) engine and whether or not you want to run it under command control.

 

Its purely a personal choice. No one else can make that decision for you.

Barry's right.

 

I only have DCS.  I run 3 PS2 engines and 3 conventional engines right now.  Even though I have a WBB E7 I painted in Seaboard Air Line colors, I pre-ordered a 3rd Rail E7 in Seaboard paint because that's my all-time favorite RR and I felt I needed to support this particular effort to make something right.  The 3rd Rail E7 is going to be FANTASTIC!!!

 

The 3rd rail E7 will come with TMCC.  All I need is a Command Base (I have a CAB-1) to run it via DCS, but until/if I get one I can still run it in conventional.

 

If Lionel makes an engine you desperately want then I'd go ahead and get it.  If you can get the same engine from MTH (with PS2 or 3) I'd give that serious consideration 1st.

Only if you want to see your MTH engines collect dust.

Well said, Barry. I recently added an Atlas O RS-1 w/TMCC to my DCS layout and a Legacy 990 to operate it. It's nice having total flexibility, and also seeing how the other half lives.

 

Bob

If you like the particular engine go for it.  I run DCS with the TMCC add-on and have no problems running proto2, tmcc, legacy, and conventional engines.  Keep in mind that just as some proto2 features are only accessible with DCS, some legacy features will not be accessible unless you also have legacy added.

Only if you want to see your MTH engines collect dust.

The troll speaks, although not very productively.

That's my one concern...putting out more money for the legacy system. I suppose over time I will most likely find Lionel engines I will enjoy and want the legacy system. I hope to have many, many more years to enjoy trains. 

I would agree with what the others have said about it depending on finding a Legacy engine that you really want.  For me it was the PM 1225.  I just added the cost of the Legacy system to the cost of the engine.  It was still worth it to me.

 

You don't really need anything else "Legacy" because if you already are controlling everything else through DCS, there is no reason to change.

I guess I must be a troll too. In my opinion the latest Legacy engines, especially the steam engines, just sound superior and run more realistically. They are fantastic. If you have the money, the Legacy offerings are hard to beat right now. I own both DCS and Legacy, have been selling off a lot of PS2 engines in favor of Legacy replacements if the roadnames I like are available. I hope MTH makes a big comeback with their PS3 offerings, but I just feel like they are getting their butt kicked right now.  

I am a fan of both Lionel and MTH.  MTH got me back into the hobby.  But, QC issues aside, Lionel's legacy system and engines are in a different league than the currently available PS2 engines (and PS3 I believe), imho.

 

The day I got Legacy I was a kid again.  It blew me away. 

 

I am really looking forward to MTH stepping up with a new remote with a true quillable control, smoke effects like whistle and cylinder, and fulfilling the purported potential of PS3 in the sound department, (and to producing new US steam again).  Now those are gonna be some great times!

This is a distinct possibility.  At least for a while. 

It's not  a matter of "right or wrong", it's a matter of being someone who takes cheap shots to promote a personal agenda, instead of being helpful.

"Its purely a personal choice. No one else can make that decision for you."

 

Amen brother Barry!  Purple and Orange both have their strong points.  I have some very nice Legacy engines, but I can't fine tune (mix) the volume on them like I can with MTH.  If I lower the bell volume on Legacy/TMCC, the engine sound lowers with it- bummer!

 

Stack

Engines cost so much more than a command/control system.  My advice to anyone is wire for DCS and then run what you feel like.  I ended with two DCS systems and a TMCC base.  Glad I got the TMCC because I really like RS-3 engines, and the Atlas seems to be a better model than the MTH.  But, the MTH engines run so much better.  I ordered an ERR Commander-M (I think that's what it's called - add on EOB type module).  I'll be really excited if the RS-3 runs sanely with EOB.

 

Mike

I like both legacy and DCS and use both. I also just bought 4 proto 3 locomotives from MTH and all i can say is wow!!! The detail is top notch and they run and sound incredible, as good as legacy? Lets just say they are very, very, close. Take a look at the new dash 8's and dash 9's, you will be very glad you did.

I appreciate the suggestions guys. I recently purchased a Legacy engine (haven't run it yet, but have heard it run from others who have it(it sounds very nice)) and that's why I asked the question. I do feel I will need to focus on building my layout though and will have to wait to purchase the legacy system. 

 

David1: I have heard 1 PS3 engine so far and you are right, they sound very, very nice. 

It would have killed me to leave mine in the box but I understand cost constraints.  My suggestion would be to shop for a good price.  It might be significantly less expensive than you think and that might help you to be able to purchase it sooner.  

 

You might also be able to find a good deal on a used unit.  Some people get rid of them over the smallest of issues (like maybe the charger doesn't work or they didn't read the instructions) instead of dealing with getting them fixed or reading the instructions.  In any case, gently used units are out there.  Obviously, you need to be careful but they may be worth a look.  Good luck!

 

Regards,

Eric S.

Saline, MI

I purchased 11 tmcc engines and then discovered dcs. I then purchased more than 30 proto2 engines before Lionel came out with the Acela, then Legacy. legacy engines are nice and with both systems I purchase the engines I like based upon their features and not their command system. This has permitted me to purchase both proto2 and Legacy engines with a couple of SMR engines (one converted to proto 2 and the other to TMCC (thanks to ERR kits)) as well as the 3rd Rail SF class2900 based upon what I like and how they run and not worry about who had them made.

I'd stay with MTH ... Legacy may be nice but TOO many quality control problems with Lionel engines..

I really agree with Barry. You should decide what you like and run them. If you like MTH versus Lionel or the other way...well...great! The hobby needs everyone. What I would do is look into what kind of layout do you what and the kind of track that you are running. I started with Lionel and Fastrack so moving into TMCC and then Legacy was a natural choice for me. I have DCS for the couple of MTH units that I really like. What you should also consider is the accessories that you wish to run. I have found out that Legacy/TMCC and DCS will not talk to each other's accessory drivers/modules. I think that should be a factor also. I went with TMCC to start and so all my accessories and turnouts are TMCC controlled. DCS cannot see those but had I started with DCS it would likely be the same thing if I was running a Legacy engince and wanted to use the Legacy features. I hope this helps a little.

I was wondering how the TMCC equiped engines from various manufactures run on the DCS system. I am basically an MTH guy who uses and enjoys DCS. I would like to consider some of the TMCC engines if they run well on the DCS system with the TMCC base installed as noted in Barry's book. I know all the features are not available but I don't use them all on the MTH engines I run anyway. Is there a difference on how the TMCC engines run compared to the Legacy engines under the DCS system? Do they both run OK if I'm mostly going to use just the speed control, horn/whistle and bell? Can I shut off the esmoke?

 

Thanks guys,

Ed Kazarian

Ed,

 

DCS 4.0 through 4.20 operate TMCC and Legacy engines better than does the Cab-1,  with only two caveats.

 

First, the DCS Remote lacks the "SET" button found on the Cab-1. Therefore, you cannot do anything, such as resetting a TMCC engine, that requires the "SET" button.

 

Second, using the thumbwheel on the DCS Remote to operate the TMCC crane car is a bit clumsy as compared to using the big red knob on the Cab-1.

Thanks Barry. I don't care about the crane car but it has been nice to be able to feature reset and factory reset the MTH engines when needed. Is that what the CAB 1"set" button does and will I be able to do that type of thing if needed on a TMCC engine?

Ed

Ed,

 

You need a Cab-1or Cab-2 to reset a TMCC or Legacy engine.

Is there a difference on how the TMCC engines run compared to the Legacy engines under the DCS system? Do they both run OK if I'm mostly going to use just the speed control, horn/whistle and bell?

Both Legacy and TMCC engines run well under DCS on my layout; however, because I run multiple consists on the same loop, I prefer to leave the TMCC/Legacy engines to run with the CAB2 and run the Proto 2 engines with the DCS controller so that I can use the DCS "ALL" command to start my Proto 2 consists simultaneously (which sends TMCC/Legacy engines to the inactive area) as well as the better speed grandularity available with the CAB2 at the speeds I run my trains (less than 30 smph).

Gentlemen,

   At this point I run DCS and Conventional from my DCS hand held remote.

I do like some of the Lionel engines I see, but I believe the quality problems with the engines keep me from adding TMCC to my layout.  If you choose to add TMCC be real careful about which engines you purchase and how you set up your layout.  Barry is absolutely correct you must purchase certain power/control equipment if you want to

add TMCC engines to your layout, investigate everything prior to purchasing.

PCRR/Dave

 

I have DCS with the TMCC add-on and run locos from all the manufacturers.  Most of my stuff is MTH and Atlas because I prefer B&M equipment and Lionel doesn't make much in that roadname.  If Lionel came out with a Legacy B&M engine that I liked I'd buy it. 

I agree with most of the advice above.  You don't have to limit yourself to one brand or another.  Buy what you like, because with DCS and the TMCC add on, you can run them all.

I run both DCS and Legacy/TMCC. Both are great fun to use.

 

My favorite part of DCS is thet appears very stable and has a mode for 50 or 60Hz.

 

My favorite part of Legacy is the sound system.

 

Regards

Nick

 

 

 

I have been running PS2/DCS for a while--purchased Barry's book and set up my layout to be DCS-friendly. All good. After some debugging, my DCS system works great. Also, I have had great luck with the reliability of my PS2 engines and my AIU and accessories.

 

Just got the new Version 1.4 Legacy 990 controller and a new E6 Atlantic Legacy steam engine. After some initial teething problems, it is up and running and the loco does sound better than my MTH engines, the quillable whistle is too cool, and the whistle steam effect is also outstanding. The Atlantic is very detailed, too.

 

I am sure MTH using PS3 and the new handheld that is forthcoming will catch up and maybe leap ahead.

 

I am now enjoying both. Why limit yourself? My only concern is I have a smaller layout and the best Legacy steamers are all very big and need a radius bigger than I have. But, the Atlantic is fine for me and maybe some more modest size steamers with all of the cool effects are forthcoming.

 

My big, impossible dream? That all 3-rail companies would get together and come up with one really first rate operating system in common. DCC would be okay, or maybe they will use a version of what is in O gauge now. Frankly, it would save lots of money for the companies and headaches for everyone. But, I doubt this would ever happen.

Barry 2, trolls 0!

LOL!

Quick,  "My big, impossible dream? That all 3-rail companies would get together and come up with one really first rate operating system in common. DCC would be okay, or maybe use a version of what is in O gauge now. Frankly, it would save lots of money for the companies and headaches for everyone. But, I doubt this would ever happen."

 

 I believe Dcc has been around for a while. The manufacturers then have chosen to make their equipment proprietary. I'm not the one who would know why. I would guess that hoping for these systems to mate would be the best we could ask.

 The fact that Lionel and MTH's systems can run at the same time on the same track is pretty cool. I will have to get my hands on a Legacy box for my layout. This is why I chose AC current for my 2 rail layout. Then Lionel dumps 2 rail usage.

 Imagine if all the companies had their own system!

 Now DCC changes the power so I won't be looking for compatability. The divide seems to be getting bigger with other brands equiping 2 rail engines with dcc and 3 rail with tmcc. I hope to get my hands on PS3 boards or I'll need to learn more about TMCC boards for certain engine upgrades.

 MTH leaped ahead years back when Lionel management went stale. Lionel now is focused on state of the art. I noticed prices coming down and their equipment looks inviting.

Joe, you are right, of course, but with Orange and Purple having gone down the parallel paths and having spent big bucks to combat each other, the logical choice for the two big dogs is to bury the hatchet, like they did with tinplate, and pick one system and throw both companies' resources into making that the best it can be (and making it completely backwards compatible down both paths, of course, or else there could be rioting). It just shouldn't be that difficult and frankly, I think the hobby would respond well to it. Then both companies could focus on making the best locos, cars, accessories, etc., with lots of cool stuff operated by the combined system.

 

In the last forty years or so, competition has been trumpeted as "the thing" in business. Of course, in a number of situations, competition is expensive and doesn't really lead to better products or service. Cooperation ultimately works best, which is why markets tend to move toward oligopoly and/or monopoly over time. A perpetual state of competition is impossible--someone will prevail and then competition ends. Indeed, no greater capitalist than John D. Rockefeller has ever lived, and he said, "Competition is ruinous...."

Rockefeller only said that because he wanted all the business, competition is good and lets the smaller guy exist, what kills everything is lawsuits.

I run both PS-2 and TMCC with no problems.  And if I can do it, it must be easy.

 

Ed

To be accurate, JDR did get rid of his competition by undercutting them on price, buying them out, and/or even hiring away the best talent--and in so doing lowered the price of kerosene (the product in his heyday) many hundreds of percent all while improving both the quality of the product and the quality of his service. He believed his practices gave America the best kerosene service in the world, and he was correct. It is never taught that way in microeconomics, as we all know JDR was "evil" (wink), but he behaved exactly the opposite of prototypical "monopolist" on both pricing and supply and while no doubt he made a ton of money, he also did more than right by his customers.

 

The point here is that Orange and Purple spend lot of time, expertise and money to maintain parallel systems. They could join forces and have more dollars for R&D and electronics and give us, the consumer, a better control product, and by freeing up resources, give us more offerings on quicker production schedules.

 

Of course, in the spirit of bettering the hobby, they would need to license liberally the system to other manufacturers.