Help: Engine can only have one specific address

The loco's battery or BCR must be functional for an address change to take effect (on the next session). 

If the sounds are running and you remove track power (not the same a commanding a shutdown via the remote), do the sounds play the complete turnoff sequence for 5-10 seconds?  Or do the sounds cut-off instantly or within just a couple seconds?

I'm curious why you replaced the BCR twice.  Did the BCR fail twice?  How did you know?  Did you confirm the BCR failed by trying it on another PS2 board if you have one?  If the BCR worked on another board then there could be a problem in the circuitry that drives the battery/BCR.  Then, I'd say it depends on how much under-the-hood work you want to do vs. just taking it in for repair.

Stan

Thanks for taking time to reply.  The sounds play for about 8 seconds after the power is turned off.  The engine was allowed to sit with the power applied to the track for about three minutes before doing anything. 

The BCR was replaced because I suspected it was the problem--not being able to keep an address is a symptom of a weak battery or BCR.  

I am pretty sure the charging circuit is good, for the following reasons:  !) When I first apply power to a loco with a totally uncharged BCR, the Lionel Direct Lock-On trips.  This is because the in rush of current trips the over-current protection. As you probably know, the Direct Lock on cycles off and on until the current is below the threshold.  Or in this case, until the BCR has a reasonable charge on it.  2) I tested the residual voltage on the BCR that I pulled out (24 hours later) and measured 1.4 Volts. 

The loco has been in for repair, and the dealer showed me all function are normal on his system.  I would guess the problem lies in my remote, which keeps reading this engine assigned to address 23, no matter what I do. 

John, I once got a new loco which, despite a fully charged battery, would not write the data to memory.  I went back to MTH and was repaired.  Was the dealer able to change the address to another number?  If it's a new loco, I would call MTH to get a return authorization for warranty repair.

Did this loco ever work right?

The charge rate of the BCR should be in the 300ma or so range. No way it should trip a lock-on.  So something is up.  Do you know how much current is being drawn by this engine at idle and when running (smoke off).

If it play shutdown sounds for 8 seconds it should be able to do a memory change.

Is this a 3V or 5V engine?

As RHR stated does this work on dealers remote?

Did you try a factory reset?  Than turn power off an wait 30 secs.  Than try to re-add with ID #1 open?   G

John,

First, remove the Lionel Direct Lockon. That have been know to degrade the DCS signal. See if things improve. If not, please read on below.

You state:

 The sounds play for about 8 seconds after the power is turned off.

Are you actually turning off track power, or are you just pressing Shut Down? If the latter, that isn't a test of the battery.

If you are turning off track power and sounds do persist for 8 seconds, then the engine most likely is, as RJR suggests, defective and should be repaired.

The problem is definitely in my remote.  I just got hold of another remote, and after adding the engine, I can freely change it to any address I want in that remote.  The problem (engine only is recognized if its address 23) only occurs on the remote I regularly use

If it play shutdown sounds for 8 seconds it should be able to do a memory change.

 

Is this a 3V or 5V engine?

 

As RHR stated does this work on dealers remote?

 

Did you try a factory reset?  Than turn power off an wait 30 secs.  Than try to re-add with ID #1 open?  

G

 per my original post

3V engine, I did a factory reset (several times, actually), Yes, I can add to ID #1, 

Do you know how much current is being drawn by this engine at idle and when running (smoke off).

About 0.8 Amps with sound on.  This is a GG1

If it's a new loco, I would call MTH to get a return authorization for warranty repair.

 

Did this loco ever work right?

This is an an old loco. It used to work perfectly.  

Here is the more detailed history:

this has long been running on my layout.  I blew the sound board and pantograph board because I had it upside down for cleaning the wheels, and it turns out that there were two un-insulated wires that touched

I took it to my local hobby shop, who repaired it, and also put in a new BCR.  

I took it home, and experienced the problems.

I took it back to the dealer, he replaced the BCR, and it still loaded fine into his system.

I took it home, and again experienced the problems

THE FOLLOWING MAY BE IMPORTANT:

While this GG1 was out for service, I deleted the engine from my remote, and moved another engine to address 23.  

Hi Barry

Sorry, you were answering my reply while I was typing

First, remove the Lionel Direct Lockon. That have been know to degrade the DCS signal. See if things improve. If not, please read on below.

The Direct Lock On is no longer in the system (although its on the input side of the TIU, and I have never had a problem with it)

Are you actually turning off track power, or are you just pressing Shut Down? If the latter, that isn't a test of the battery.

I am turning off track power when I do that test, so it should be a test of the battery

then the engine most likely is, as RJR suggests, defective and should be repaired.

Per my most recent post, the dealer rechecked the engine. It is fine.  It seems the problem is some ghost floating around in my remote.  If that is so, how can I get rid of that without resetting the remote and re-entering all my engines?

John, you do have a problem, and I can understand not wanting to reload a bunch of locos.  Before going to that effort, I would first try reloading the DCS program into the remote.  Second, I would try reloading the sound file into the loco.  Third, I would use the loader program to save the remote's contents to a computer, and then restore the contents (which process involves a remote rest that does wipe out the data, but you restore it from the computer).  This may eliminate the problem, or the problem may get reloaded, but it's worth a try.  [For the benefit of other readers, this is why I strongly recommend backing up a remote to a computer when all settings & softkeys are as you want them; permits restoration to a known good condition.)

Do you have another remote that has all your locos in it?  If so, try clioning the recalcitrant remote.

I assume the "other engine" is no longer in slot #23.

John, the easiest way to reload locos into a reset remote is to place them on the track, one at a time, and "add engine."  They will come in with the same ID and name as they had before.  Sure beats wearing out the thumb typing the garbage in.  I would do the GG-1 first, and see where it winds up.

Thanks RJR.  I will forgo the DCS loader steps, as I don't have it loaded on my computer and I don't want to mess with THAT to.  So I am heading towards a remote reset.  I have a question:

If I do a reset of the remote, place all my locos on the track, apply power, and then push "READ" will I recover all my engine custom names and addresses in one shot?  Then all I would have to do is recreate the lashups. 

I will start with your advice, and make sure the GG1 goes into the ID of my choosing

John,

First, ensure that all of your TIUs and remotes are at he same version of DCS. If they are not, make them so and se if the problem persists.

If all devices are at the same level of DCS, you can try simply reloading DCS into the remote that's causing the problem. However, I strongly suspect that this will not correct he problem, since it's much more likely that it's a problem with the remote's content, not with its software.

In that case, proceed as follows:

• Backup a good remote to your PC
• Factory Reset the problem remote
• Restore the contents of the good remote's backup into the problem remote.

John,

If I do a reset of the remote, place all my locos on the track, apply power, and then push "READ" will I recover all my engine custom names and addresses in one shot?  Then all I would have to do is recreate the lashups. 

No, that will not work at all. The READ doesn't add anything at all. It simply sorts engines that are already in the remote into the Active and Inactive engine lists.

You'll need to individually add back each engine, switch track and accessory that is currently in the remote. The only good news is that Custom Names (stored in the engines themselves), and Record/Playback sessions and Custom Sounds (stored in the TIU) are not affected by a remote reset.

This and a whole lot more is all in MTH’s “The DCS O Gauge Companion 2nd Edition", available for purchase as an eBook or a printed book at MTH's web store!

Thanks Barry.  I was afraid of that.  This evening I shall pour myself a nice scotch and re-add all my engines.  

Alternatively, I shall just designate my spare remote as dedicated to the GG1.

John,

About the second or third time you have to reload a remote, you'll be wishing that you had made a backup. Ditto if you ever purchase a new or replacement remote.

Installing the Loader Program, updating DCS components and cloning remotes is relatively straight forward, assuming that you follow the excellent instructions in The DCS O Gauge Companion 2nd Edition.  

Further, first check to make sure that all your TIUs and remotes are at the same level of DCS. If not, you may be resetting and reloading your remote without correcting the problem.

Why not try deleting engine 23.  Scroll inactive list for any GG-1 ID and delete it.  Try again with offending remote.  G

John, I'm back.  Does your spare remote have all your locos in it?  If not, use "add engine" as I described above to add all locos. Then load the loader program, save the spare remote's contents to the computer, and clone the recalcitrent remote to the spare remote.  You should then be rid of any vestiges of the GG-1. 

If you can pour yourself a scotch, then you have the capability of loading and using the newest loader version.  All instructions are on screen; much easier and more user friendly than the original.  Appears that BB and I are on the same wavelength

Just to be clear, after freely changing the address the new address sticks thru a power cycle?  Per original post, the recalcitrant remote could also change the address and function during a given operating session - it just reverted to #23 only on the next session (after a power cycle).

Thanks everyone:

Why not try deleting engine 23. 

GGG:  I tried that numerous times, and in several different ways. See my original post

Scroll inactive list for any GG-1 ID and delete it.

I have six GG1s. None were or are on the inactive list

Does your spare remote have all your locos in it? 

RJR.  No such luck, my spare remote was woefully out of date

If you can pour yourself a scotch, then you have the capability of loading and using the newest loader version.  All instructions are on screen; much easier and more user friendly than the original.  Appears that BB and I are on the same wavelength

Glad to hear that its much easier than the original, which I found to be slow. In light of that, I may give that a try. But do not underestimate how easily I can pour myself a scotch

Just to be clear, after freely changing the address the new address sticks thru a power cycle?  Per original post, the recalcitrant remote could also change the address and function during a given operating session - it just reverted to #23 only on the next session (after a power cycle).

Stan

Yes, you got it.  The new address works fine during a power cycle, no matter which address I set it to. Its only after I turn the power off, that I get error messages, UNLESS I had changed it to address 23.

But do not underestimate how easily I can pour myself a scotch

Nor shall I underestimate how easily you can use the loader program.

This would be an opportunity to update the software in all remotes and TIUs.  As BB notes above, they must all be the same version for optimal performance.

Two things I'd like closure on - albeit not directly related to the solution.

1. Is it normal behavior for a Lionel Lock-on with overload detection to trip-reset-trip-reset on power-up with an MTH engine with BCR?

2. Before the remote was declared guilty, I think we all agree the usual suspect for the symptoms would be the battery/BCR.  Perhaps another troubleshooting tool would be to turn off the headlight, turn down the bell-only volume, or change some other DCS engine setting that should (along with a new address) "stick" thru a power cycle and into the next session.  Might help focus attention toward or away from the battery/BCR... 

Stan,

2. Before the remote was declared guilty, I think we all agree the usual suspect for the symptoms would be the battery/BCR.  Perhaps another troubleshooting tool would be to turn off the headlight, turn down the bell-only volume, or change some other DCS engine setting that should (along with a new address) "stick" thru a power cycle and into the next session.  Might help focus attention toward or away from the battery/BCR... 

That's an excellent suggestion! Do you mind if I include it in the next edition?

stan2004

Both good questions:

1. Is it normal behavior for a Lionel Lock-on with overload detection to trip-reset-trip-reset on power-up with an MTH engine with BCR?

It happens regularly if I have not run the layout for awhile (more than a week), AND I have more than seven engines charging through the Lock On.  With seven or less this has not been observed. So this is the first time I have seen it trip with a single engine.  So one could argue, as you have, that there is something else going on

2. Before the remote was declared guilty, I think we all agree the usual suspect for the symptoms would be the battery/BCR.  Perhaps another troubleshooting tool would be to turn off the headlight, turn down the bell-only volume, or change some other DCS engine setting that should (along with a new address) "stick" thru a power cycle and into the next session.  Might help focus attention toward or away from the battery/BCR...

Well, I went to check this, and I have now polluted the other remote!  It behaves the way the main remote does.  After a factory reset of the engine the engine loads into Address 1.  It keeps all its settings including volume and lights, even the change in address during the power cycle.   When power is turned off and on, it maintains those settings only if I had previously changed the address to #23.  If I had previously changed it to any other address, then I get error messages

I will reset the spare remote and let you know what happens

The other remote is now corrupted as well.  I used the following procedure

1) factory reset of GG1.

2) Wait 30 seconds

3) reset remote

4) Wait 30 seconds

5) Add GG1. Goes into ID #1

6) GG1 behaves normally

7) Shut down GG1

8) wait 30 seconds

9) Start up GG1

10) GG1 behaves normally

11) Change GG1 ID to anything but 23.  (I can also just leave as ID #1

12) GG1 goes through normal start up/control cycle

13) Shut down GG1

13) Turn off Power

14) wait one minute

15) Turn on power

16) Try to start GG1... GET ERROR MESSAGE

17) Try to Add GG1.  Goes in normally, Address #23!

18) GG1 behaves normally during operation, and subsequent track power up/ power down cycles

It appears that this GG1 is determined to have only ID #23.   It no longer looks like the remotes are the culprits of this behavior. Indeed, they may be the victims of this behavior.

Stan2004, you won a stay of execution, or more correctly a "stay of reset" for the remotes.   Thanks.

So will resetting the sound files reset the GG1, or is there even a harder rest that must be done?

John,

I previously suggested...

First, ensure that all of your TIUs and remotes are at he same version of DCS. If they are not, make them so and se if the problem persists.

So, what version of DCS do you have in your TIU and in your remotes?

John, First get all your units on the same DCS version, as BB says. 

Then, take either remote.  Do a reset remote on it.  One-by-one, use add engine to add to it all your locos except for the GG-1.  Make sure that it works fine.  If any locos come in as #23, change its ID to something else.  Then save the data to your computer using the version 2.34 loader program.  Do a reset on then other remote, and download the data---i.e., clone it.  You now can run your layout, and if you pollute either remote, it can be unpolluted in a few minutes with a restore from the computer.

Note that saving remote content to a computer and then restoring, does not carry with it the DCS program that is loaded---only the data.  Updating the program is a separate function.

I would download the proper sound file from the MTH site, and load it into the loco, on the possibility that the on-board file has been corrupted.

Barry, does the dealer loader program have the ability to do a clean flush on a loco, removing all vestiges of a sound file?

John, after doing the above, if you have a loco with an ID #1, move it elsewhere, so you have #1 and #23 both vacant.  Then try to add the GG1 and see what it does.

John, I see you're just down the road from me.  I'll be glad to help you upgrade your DCS programs, if you find it more difficult than pouring scotch.

I also have on my computer the GG1 sound file I downloaded in 2004 for my old MTH GG-1 (made before the premier/R-K split) when I upgraded it to PS2.  I can email it to you if you want it.

Why not just leave it at ID 23?  It wants to revert back to 23 on power down so let it. Make ID 23 available (open).. If you decide to reset the remote add your engines one at a time on a programming track or equivalent. Only the engine you're trying to add should be receiving power, Everything else off the track or on dead tracks. For whatever reason the engine seems stuck at ID 23. I might just leave it.  Dcs does seem to have  a few quirks at times.   I bet the engine adds at 23 if the slot is open or will run at the same time as engine 23  ID if occupied. 

I previously suggested...

First, ensure that all of your TIUs and remotes are at he same version of DCS. If they are not, make them so and se if the problem persists.

So, what version of DCS do you have in your TIU and in your remotes?

Barry

Both my remotes and the TIU are version 4.10.  I thought I had replied to that one earlier.    Nevertheless, I shall upgrade both to the latest version before proceeding with yours and RJRs suggestions

Thanks

John

RJR:

Personally, I wouldn't upgrade until I found the problem.  4.10 was not a problem version.  A glitch could complicate things further.  BB & GGG may disagree.

This is a engine problem IMHO.  Getting the latest software is a good idea but it's not going to fix the engine. 

Robert,

does the dealer loader program have the ability to do a clean flush on a loco, removing all vestiges of a sound file?

Sadly, it does not.

If you think it would help others, then by all means!

I thought only a Governor can do that!  Even Barry is "only" an Ambassador.  LOL.

John, I know you're answered this several times but given the lock-on tripping with JUST the GG1 attached, I think there's some logic to taking a closer look at the engine.  I know you've run the experiment and answered the question about changing GG1 settings (lights, volume, whatever) and seeing if they "stick" thru a power-cycle.  I again want to confirm that by power-cycle I mean turning the power OFF, then ON.  In other words step 13-15 per above.  I may be mis-reading your answers but I wonder if you're thinking a power-cycle is a single session when the power is ON?  The saving of a new address and any changed settings (volume, lights, whatever) is done when track power is removed with the battery/BCR providing the power.  It's that saving of data that I'm not convinced is occurring - again I apologize if I am mis-reading your responses.

Stan2004:

I define "power off" as flipping the switch that controls the 180 Watt power supplies that provide input to the TIU.  In other words, the layout is electrically dead.  You can put a light bulb across the rails and they will be off.  Nothing is on. 

That lock on tripping when power was applied only happened once, when I first applied power to the loco after first bringing it home. It has not happened since.  So it may have been an anomaly

To Barry and RJR, I thought about this some more, and I think this is an engine problem, not a DCS software issue.  My reasons are as follows:

1) The TIU and both remotes are the same version (4.10). 

2) Despite resetting the remote or a feature reset on the engine, it still only maintains its settings through a power cycle if, and only if I assign it ID 23.  By power cycle, I mean on and off, as defined in my first paragraph of this post. By maintaining its settings, I mean sound volume, light configuration, etc

3)  I have already basically done what RJR suggests.  Reset the remote, then

 One-by-one, use add engine to add to it all your locos except for the GG-1.  Make sure that it works fine.  If any locos come in as #23, change its ID to something else.... 

4) Everything has run fine for years until I had this engine repaired.

Gregg suggests 

Why not just leave it at ID 23?  It wants to revert back to 23 on power down so let it. 

Unfortunately the way I run my layout is I assign loco numbers based on my track numbering system.  It prevents confusion when I am running my layout in front of tour groups.  I can run by living with this, but it just means that this GG1 will be confined to pulling the train on track 23.

Gregg also says:

I bet the engine adds at 23 if the slot is open or will run at the same time as engine 23  ID if occupied. 

Yes it does, in fact therein lies the problem.  

Lastly, Gregg says

Dcs does seem to have  a few quirks at times.   

In fact, if I have a loco on the layout with address 23, and I just put the GG1 on the track, even after assigning the GG1 another ID on a programming track, both engines will start up and run fine if I address the single engine with ID 23.

The bottom line is this engine has permanently decided its ID is 23.  Can't I lobotomize it somehow?

In the meantime I shall go back to pouring scotch

How about swapping  boards from the engine that is at 23? Both boards would have to be the same. Probably 3 volt? You could then reassign the good board.  This  would  also mean loading  new sound files. or  It also  just may be a small  repair that Stan  or GGG could do..??  

Try reloading a sound file.  The file may have gotten garbled when you had the short.

Stan,

If you think it would help others, then by all means!

Thanks!

John, I have one engine, a used G gauge dash 8 that is stuck at address #1.

It had dead batteries and had all the symptoms that go with it like you described. I installed a BCR2 into it. I had to do a factory reset to restore it. It reloaded into the remote into address #1 OK. When I tried to move it to a different address, the next operating session or power cycle, it wouldn't respond. Whenever I checked it with the loader, it was stuck at address #1 still.

 I will look deeper into why it won't take an address change someday. Maybe the BCR2 isn't charging properly or something like that.

 I post things like this here, and I usually get the "You don't know what you're doing" speech. So, it has been at address #1 for the last year.

 Sometimes it's just easier that way.

I like a quote from Marty last year when he said he's not a big fan of BCRs. I don't believe they're a cure all. I have ten year old engines with stock batteries that work fine still. Sometimes, a BCR maybe a better choice.

 I like the tip to just keep it at address #23 for yours!

If the spin-the-bottle now points at the engine, here are some random thoughts.

1. In your original post, you say you can change the GG1 address to whatever and it will operate properly at the new address during that session.  So since you want to assign the GG1 to the track #, you could do so for that operating session and it should work...as long as it doesn't derail or otherwise lose power.

2. If you want to fuss around under-the-hood, I'd swap just the power-supply board of the 2-board PS2-3V pair.  They are interchangeable and you don't have to reload a sound file; there is no "software" or data stored in the power-supply board.  This would tell you if the BCR, or the circuitry associated with the BCR is issue.

3. In an earlier post, you noted that the BCR had a voltage of 1.4V after 24 hours.  If the hardware was in front of me, I'd be interested in voltage immediately after completely the shutdown sounds after a power loss.  The standard 2-battery pack has at least 2.4V available to perform the power-loss management of playing shutdown sounds and saving an changed parameters (address, volumes, light configuration, etc.).  It could be, for reasons TBD, that the BCR and associated circuitry is on the edge.  That is, this is a repaired board that had a short and never quite worked right after that short.  So even though it plays the 8 sec shutdown sound, the BCR conks out just after that and can't supply the power to complete the parameter-saving function.  This is just speculation of course.  Installing a charged battery would be a simple experiment to test this.  IIRC a charged PS2 battery holds well over 100 times the energy of a charged BCR.

4. If don't have a battery, you can perform a somewhat similar experiment by turning down the volume of the engine to barely audible.  Change the address.  Now kill track power.  Carefully listen to insure the 8 sec sound plays to completion.  The idea here is the audio draws a fair amount of power from the BCR during the 8 sec.  By turning the volume waaay down you leave more energy in the BCR to perform the parameter saving function after the sounds turn off.  Is it back to 23 on the next power ON as before, or does the new address now "stick"?  To perform the test properly, the dice go in the right-hand while the glass of scotch goes in the left-hand.

5. If you really want to dig deeper, you can also examine the chronometer and odometer readings.  As these numbers change during an operating session, they get saved in the same way as the engine address and other changed engine settings.  So, for example, if every time the GG1 gets a power-ON you read the same chronometer running time, you know there's a problem with the saving function - whether it be a bad memory chip or whatever.  Say you leave the engine powered for 2 hours and see the chronometer has gone up by 2 hours.  Then you kill track power.  Wait a minute or whatever.  Now power up the engine.  Did the chronometer jump back 2 hours or did the 2 hours "stick".  Note the chronometer advances whenever power is on the track; you do not have to Start Up the engine.

Hopefully one of these random thoughts that might trigger an "ah ha".  Or maybe it will just send you to the store for another bottle of scotch.

Stan2004

I shall toast you with my scotch tonight.   Your test number 5 told the tale.  The chronometer advances when the power is on.  After cycling the power on and off, the chronometer reads the same the last time it started up.  To use your terminology, the elapsed time did not "stick".

I then noted that the "INFO" screen also showed a low battery.  (I never use that screen,  by the way)  Its starting to look like a bad charging board.  I've got to do something else for about an hour.  So I will leave power on the track, and measure the BCR voltage around 11:00 East Coast Time. (Per your #3) Stay tuned to your local OGR forum

John, the charging board could have been damaged by the event that sent the loco to the repair shop initially.  If you have a fully-charged battery around (even if you have to borrow it from another loco, see what happens.  A fully-charged battery should be able to take a few minutes of operation without charging, and then shut down with the shutdown button.  Restrart and see if the new setting takes. 

I suspect the cheapest cure would be to pull the board and send it to GGG for repair, unless you can wrangle a power board from a tech.

Stan:  Great idea!

As I said very early. Tripping a breaker on a BCR charge is not a reality.  I know you say this only happened once, but it may have been an issue that damaged a component on the board.

I am not sure how this can play a full shut down sequence if the BCR is bad.  If you only read 1.4V at the Battery charge port you have an issue with BCR, Power Supply board or the processor.

Just to be clear, is the volume play full loudness or does it start loud and than go to half volume?

To properly do a Factory Reset volume should be up full, and after the reset turn track power off.  Engine should play full shutdown sounds,  Wait about 30secs. 

I may have not caught it, but I would definitely try a Battery, followed by a reload of the sound file.

After that, swap the power supply with a good engine, but I would only do that once and while monitoring amperage.  It is easy for a bad processor to take out the charging circuit if you don't know what to look for.  It is weird to me that this engine plays shutdown sounds with a low battery indication.  Or that it functions well at all.

Lastly, if none of this is working I would say you have a bad processor and it can't reset ID.  IF the reload of a sound file doesn't fix it, I think you have to live with this.

Again to be clear, even now with a new remote with no other engines in it, this engine will only respond as address #23 after powering off?   G

G