Help with All Nation F unit drive or pick up

There was a time period when All Nation installed sintered iron wheels on their drives instead of solid steel wheels.  In my experience with these the sintered iron wheels they get dirtier faster than the steel wheels.  You might try a few drops of Wahl Hair Clipper Oil on your rails.  We had this problem at the BSME with the club's AN F units and the application of the oil on the running rails seemed to solve the problem.

Joe

I have all nation diesels with sintered wheels. I was very concerned about the electrical conductivity between these wheels and the track. When running in straight DC current I noticed arcing between the wheels and the track. My track is nickel silver. I polished all the wheels using 600 grit emery paper. This can be done in a lathe, drill press or even an electric hand drill. The original method of electrical pick up on all nation diesel trucks was that only two wheels on each truck where pick up wheels. I added phosphor bronze wipers to all the wheels so that now ALL wheels are pick up wheels. You can get phosphor bronze wheel wipers from Rod Miller. I replaced the original open frame motor with a Pittman low-cog ball bearing motor from P&D hobby shop. After all these changes, the engines ran flawlessly with no more electrical arcing running on straight DC current.

Next, I converted the engines to DCC by installing a sound decoder with “keep-alive” capacitors. These engines now run just as well as an engine with steel wheels. No arcing, no stalling and excellent slow speed performance with sintered wheels. Based on this, and if you are planning on added a DCC decoder with capacitors, I would not replace this drive or its wheels. It is true that the sintered wheels will get cruddy sooner than steel wheels, so the interval between wheel cleaning is shorter than with steel wheels but the interval between cleanings is not that bad.

I make wiper mounts for the A-N F units.  Machined from Delrin with phosphor bronze wipers from Rod Miller.  Email me if you're interested.  These aren't something involved with my business, just something I did for myself.  Helps tremendously but not cheap.

Boy, I had no idea those trucks were that dusty.

Jay

My one locomotive with sintered wheels has track sliders.

Try MU'ing these things - hook two together for eight wheel pickup.  Wires can go through the rear door window, and with diaphragms you cannot see them.

And polish the wheels, as above.

Slightly modified A-N F Unit drive.  It does use my wipers so my drift isn't too extreme.  I no longer machine the frames.  I have molds and cast them in brass.  Drive shafts are machined Delrin rod.  Do yourself a favor and toss the originals.  Two of these lashed together pull 100 cars and are very quiet.  Sprockets modified too.  When I say, toss the original drive shafts, I'm referring to the curved tubing supplied with the kits.  Not the speedometer cable style.  Though I don't use them but others swear by them.

That really is a better frame idea!  I did not try the Delrin - went straight to the NWSL glass-filled plastic and Toyota hose.

How do you attach the motor?

Bob,

I tried to reply earlier but now I don't see what I posted.  First thought was, well, I'm being moderated again but I don't think that's the case.  Maybe I just didn't post it.

Anyway, I'll try again.  The original frames were done by the late Gary Herberger.  Besides being a model railroader, he was a tool & die maker along with being an expert machinist.  He worked in the model shops of IBM, located in the Bay Area.  Again, he made the original frame and many of us tried to copy it.  He finally allowed Dennis to make molds of the 4 major parts and have brass castings made.  As you know Dennis quit casting and I ended up with the molds.  What you see below is one of the cast frames.  In the photos I try to show how the motors are held in place.  As a side note, your 8000 series Pittmans will fit just as easily (same bolt pattern).  As a side note, when we made the masters Gary stretched the frame so a longer, more powerful, motor would fit.  The pictures below show a 9433.

If this doesn't show up I'll know I've crossed over the line again,

Jay

Nope - perfect.  Those are nice frames.

Did you ever consider rubber mounts for your motors?  I have had success with inner tube rubber and either those tiny hose clamps or aircraft safety wire.

edit: I see your multiple grommet  isolation.  More complicated, but just as effective.

Do the frames fit the Kemtron Diesels?

Looks like my paranoia got the best of me, again.  No replay of my moderation...yet.

I prefer things that bolt, or interlock, together.  I often times do use rubber, neoprene, silicone, etc, as a noise & vibration dampener.  As a side note, McMaster-Carr has a really nice sampler of their offerings.  Fairly cheap, lots of examples, clearly marked, and enough rubber, and the like, to last for years.  If you're interested let me know and I'll attempt to provide a link.  Oh the heck with it, here goes,

https://www.mcmaster.com/8450k2

Guess it's not as cheap as I remember but still worth it, in my mind.

These frames were designed for the A-N (and their predecessors) shells.  Could they be adapted to something else?  I suppose so but no guarantees.

Jay

As a side note, from my experience.  Polishing the sintered wheels will help.  Tying everything together will help but it just prolongs the inevitable...the wheels will get still get dirty you just won't have to clean them as often.  Wipers will help too.  Electrical pickup through the wheels, rotating axles riding in oilite bearings, resting in zmak frames, with swiveling truck bolsters (vertical & horizontal) is hardly ideal.  Sliders, if you can abide by them, work also.  It's kind of a total package.

I think ideally, the best would be, steel wheels, wipers, tying all the locos together electrically (if feasible) and clean rails is your best bet.  Surely no harm in trying the Wahl Clipper oil also, many swear by it.

Jay

I use Wahl, or the equivalent, which right now is a high grade kerosene.  It lubricates the 400 wet-or-dry sandpaper, and then I wipe the rail clean and put a bit more on the railhead.  Mine is a special case - sort of outdoors, and seldom used.

On the paranoia - I think you have to challenge someone's belief system or get really ornery to get deleted.  What usually happens to me is I mistake the "finished" button for the "post" button.

 Lately the only way I get deleted is by interrupting a religious discussion.  And believe me, when I do that it is gentle - I think religions that do not interfere with the rights of others should be respected.

Bob,

There is at least one other way.  I don't want to go to OGR Jail so I'll email you.

Jay

I just found this thread and it seems to answer many of the problems I have had with the All-Nation and Weaver drives.  I thought I was going nuts watching all the arcing from the steel (sintered?) wheels on my N/S track, not to mention the constant stalling.  I did run wires between A and B units, which helps some.  I am going to try the Wahl oil next.

Jay - I emailed you re. A/N sprockets so will await your reply on that.  

Just as an aside, is there any reason to prefer the sprocket drive to the older A/N gears?  I have at least 2 varieties of these - both straight cut and helical on various engines.  Maybe just the noise?

John

I purchased 4 pick ups from Jay and they made a tremendous improvement.  I also repowered them with a can motor.  Before using the modified trucks I would get 20 to 25 minutes of operation from the engines after that the wheels were so pitted they would not pick up anymore.  I carefully cleaned the wheels then ran the modified all nation engine for much longer than that and there wasn't a single pit in the wheels.

John,

I don't care for the early, straight cut, spur gears.  Way too noisy.  Some folks love them.  I've spent way too many hours trying to eliminate noise.

Jay