Holy Grail of O Gauge

My nominee is the 1937 Lionel 700E scale Hudson with display board although a mint 700K kit version is probably rarer.

Here's the highest recorded price paid for a single toy train set:

 

http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/2482659

 

Here's my personal vote - JLC's personal 700E brass prototype:

 

http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/671057

My holy grail is different than someone else's holy grail. At one time I would have agreed on the 700E. Back then nobody spoke of warped frames, zinc pest and repro parts. Then the average price dropped and and all this info came out thanks to various publications, so pursuing the 700e just seemed like too much hassle. Then there was the Blue Comet, but Standard guage isn't my thing. Right now I am grailess.

I didn't take the original question as a "money" or "price" one, but rather as a

"that's really important" one. Of course, the two are not unrelated, if a transaction

is imminent.

 

Anyway, has to be the Lionel Scale Hudson, again. Most don't warp, as I understand it.

A friend has a 700E that is (apparently) perfect, and wants me to buy it. I will if 

he comes down more than he's willing to.

 

The scale O-gauge production of the last 20 years has reduced the "grailness" of all

the old stuff, to me. I really prefer the Lionel post-2000 J3a as a model.

 

Wouldn't an original 700E with ERR Command Control be a hoot?

There is no one "grail", as that is a very subjective concept. Everyone has their own grail. I can only offer some candidates for fun based on the record prices they brought at auction.

 

In the end, there are only rare, notable, and historic items. Other ones off the top of my head are the Boy's Set as you mentioned and the clear shell F-3s.

Having grown up in a Lionel family, for me it would be the 700E or Standard Gauge "Blue Comet." Having said that, as stated above, this is strictly a subjective matter.

 

Bob 

IMO, Just because someone paid an obscene price (had to be nuts?) for a certain piece surely doesn't make that particular item the ultimate piece to own or as you say, the "Holy Grail" of toy trains.   

 

I said no such thing. Please read my last post again.

>>I said no such thing. Please read my last post again.<<

 

It was a general statement.

Equating one sale to the ultimate train makes no sense. 

I never read your post.

Joe

While the non-train examples I gave are extremely expensive, the question was aimed more at what people consider to be the most iconic and noteworthy of our hobby. That being said, it is also very interesting to know just how much people are willing to shell out for what they consider the finest (or rarest) trains ever produced

makes you wonder who would pay such a price.

Bingo 

Actually one item that should be mentioned is the original O Gauge Swiss Krokodil made by Marklin in the pre-war period. Large, rare, a piece of art and almost always the Holy Grail for collectors of Marklin and other European trains.

all the best,

Miketg

My vote would be for the 700E Hudson and it's set of cars. Yes, some were victims of bad processing, but the question was, "What was the pinnacle of 3-rail trains?" That's my opinion!

 

Neil  

Yup, a 700E in excellent condition.  That would be it for me. 

 

The Marklin Krok would be a nice runnerup.

 

Pacific FS 691 by Elettren

The Lionel 700E from 1937.  It was back when my Dad told me about in in 1954 and still is, as far as I am concerned.

Here's the story on that State set(found by Stan, one of my TCA sponsors!):

 

http://www.tcaetrain.org/articles/chronicles/pursuit/

The original Big Brute that Allison Cox had in his collection before he passed on.

This is a great topic. The more I read and think about it, the further away from trains I get. What would get me really excited is having an identifiable piece of the original Lionel factory building or something from the Manhattan showroom. Another item is that original Josh Cowen portrait that Ron Hollander acquired from JC's retired chauffeur.

Any of the following: a 226E LN, a 1946 726, or the 2921WS steam freight set. Don't need megabuck items, just nice trains.

Overall, the 700E scale Hudson is at the top of the pyramid.

 

But for the postwar era, I'd say either the Canadian Pacific F-3 set or the glossy Jersey Central FM. Perhaps also the Boy's Set - less than 5 or so made.

 

For the modern era, the rare Chessie T-1's repainted in Dick Kughn's Carail blue or white livery is definitely up there - very few modern steamers I've NEVER seen in person.

for some reason i don't really equate the "holy grail" idea with either the pinnacle of production or even a high value based solely on a high demand.  given the circumstances of its use, i doubt if the actual holy grail was anything special aside from its being in the right place at the right time.  a one or perhaps few of a kind item.

 

quote:

 I gave are extremely expensive, the question was aimed more at what people consider to be the most iconic and noteworthy of our hobby.

 

Iconic?

I think it would be a toss-up between the 700E and a Santa Fe F3.

 

Both the 700E and the postwar F3s are iconic Lionel/toy train items, no doubt about it.  Had the question been "What is the most iconic toy train ever?" it would clearly be the SF Warbonnet F3.  It think it is the hands-down winner.

 

But given the question I voted for the 700E because of the relative rarity: the Holy Grail was highly sought after but seldom seen.  That sort of describes the 700E in a nutshell: although I have heard about them since age 5, I've only seen two (in person) in my life, one of display at a show and another that I have packed away because I bought it via an on-line auction.   By contrast, everyone has seen the SF Warbonnet F3 and they are everywhere: anyone who enters my trainroom sees eleven of them, for example.

Let's not forget items from the LaRue Shempp collection... yes, I'm fully onboard with the subjectivity of "grailness" (which, to me, hints strongly at "one of a kind").

It's not a "Holy Grail" unless you, personally, hope to own one some day. Your's may be of little interest to me. Hobby-wise, my "Holy Grail" would be 3-D slides from the 1950s showing scenes within a drive-in movie. They may not cost much, but I probably will never find them.

My vote goes to Lionels first catalog.. Only one copy is known to exist..

Second place would be the original #213 lift bridge

Joe

Just as the biblical Holy Grail is a legend, so to is any Holy Grail associated with toy trains.  You may have your own concept of a Holy Grail of O gauge, and it will likely differ from my definition of a Holy Grail.  Truth is, after all my years in this hobby, I haven't found, seen, or heard of anything that would conform to the definition.

This is the Holy Grail

 

My "holy grails" (plural) are those things I want made, that never have been.....I am

pursuing those still....

I think I agree with you. I'm not even sure there's any physical evedence the Holy Grail ever existed. Is it legend or myth? A legend is an exageration based on some factual evedence. A myth is a fictional story passed down through generations. I think controversy arises just determining whether the Holy Grail is myth or legend. But mediphorically I can accept the Holy Grail is assumed to be Legend opposed to myth.

So I don't seek out the Holy Grail because what ever it is determined to be I'm sure it's not with in my reach or desire.

Mythically I'm looking into creating the Southern Railway's Joe E. Brown passenger consist.  According to Southern historians it only existed in my Dad's mind and was the starting point of all my Dad's stories about his childhood adventures on the rail line that ran between Macon and Brunswick Georgia.

Charlie,

 

To follow up on your 700K - at the Pittsburgh Greenburg shows, there used to be a gentleman who had the 700K parts in what appeared to be an original display case.  Don't know if this was a sales display or what, but it was fascinating to look at - seeing how you could build your own loco back in the day.  He told me that Richard K offered him 100K for it to add to his collection, but he turned it down.  I haven't seen the gent the last few years so I don't know what ever became of the display.

I , like many of you, would   for the 700E.   Just having grown up around my Uncle & Pop, 2 big classic Lionel guys,   the 700e was always THE engine they talked about getting if the hit the lottery one day. It was the engine that symbolized Lionel  ( You can also say the 2333 F3 did, but those are far more common)

Most jump to a specific train item , but I see it differently. The pinnacles of toy trains and model railroading are the steam locomotive and trolley car. If we expand this topic to toys, then the steam ship is a pinnacle as well.

 

There are yet more pinnacles of toys:

> iron casting technology;

> tinplate lithography;

> the spring clock mechanism;

> the electric motor;

> Storage batteries;

> Edison and Tesla electricity;

> precision die casting and Zamac;

> plastics & injection molding;

> analog, solid state and digital electronics;

> laser printing;

> stereo lithography.

I would think that, for 3 rail O gauge, factory-sealed, mint-in-box examples of the 700E and 700K (if any exist in this state) would both qualify as the ultimate "Holy Grails" for O gauge collectors.

 

For electric trains in general, I would vote for the original "Electric Express" motorized gondolas that Lionel produced as store displays.  Talk about rare and iconic...

 

Andy

>>>The Grail is legendary, one of a kind, did exist at one time, and was preserved for at least a while in history. But it may not have survived to the present day, and, if it does, is hidden in some unknown location.<<

 

Exactly.. Could not have said it better.. 

It would have to be something known to have existed but still elusive.   

Joe

 

The holy grail for me is to be retired, in good health, having friends and having fun with my trains of which I am doing. 

 

There is not one train that I lust to have  but just loving what I do have.