Holy Grail of O Gauge

The holy grail should not only be rare and significant; it should also be part of the misty origins of the hobby--likewise, the holy grail of legend is not the nicest chalice, but the one used at the Last Supper. It has to do with origins. It should also, as has been said, be impossible or nearly impossible to obtain, with its very existence (in the present day) being somewhat in doubt.

 

So, for the Lionel collector, I would say the holy grail is not a train. It is that fan with flat blades that J.L. Cowen tried to produce before he went into trains.

 

According to "legend" (i.e., the Lionel VHS made back in the LTI days), it was the failure of this product that forced J.L. to come up with his famous "window displays" to make some money. This useless fan is at the origin of all Lionel trains. It definitely (maybe) existed. It is the subject of folklore. It may exist, even today, in a lost cavern (basement) or ruined tower (attic) somewhere in New York or New Jersey. To find it would be the most epic quest of traindom, the hunt of all hunts.

That fan is the holy grail!

Lionel PreWar standard gauge Blue Comet.

featured on Antique Road Show.

Upwards of $10,000 or more for Loco, tender

and 3 pass cars.

hello guys and gals.........

 

I think the holy grail of "O" scale trains are the Brass locomotives because they are hand made and most have fully rounded boilers and 3D lost wax detail castings.

 

the woman who loves the S.F.5011,623

Tiffany

I believe that Czar Nicholas Marklin train went for 1.25 Million about 10 years ago,it can probably be Googled

Further reading shows this Egg to be in Moscow....

Perhaps Bob Diamond has found the grail buried beneath Atlantic Avenue in Brooklyn?

In the Hollander book All Aboard, there is an article "Cowen as remebered by his widow", one of the stores goes like this:

 

"One time he was in San Francisco and a man called at the hotel and said he had one of the first trains Joshie'd ever made. He came up with it. It was just a wooden flat car, old and banged up, but it was one of the very first, with the initials JLC scratched in it. Oh Joshie wanted that car in the worst way. He would have given anything for it. I think he offered him a thousand dollars right there. the man said no, he wouldn't part with it, but he would will it to the company when he died, but he never did"

 

So if anyone ever comes across a wooden gondola with the initials JLC scratched on it...

The  Holy Grail, the Ark Of The Covenant, BlackBeards  Treasure  and Jimmy Hoffa are all at the bottom of the Money Pit on Oak Island in Nova Scotia.

I think Mr. Allan Miller would have to pick the Lionel #520 and I agree. Don 

Indeed, Don...still one of my all-time favorites!  But I have several of them so I guess they don't measure up in the "rare" or "unique" category at all.  But my fellow members of the Friends of the 520 society still hold this one dear in our hearts.  MSRP when made: $9.95.  The 520 was one of the very first locomotives I was able to buy with money I earned myself when I was a boy.  The others were the #41 Army Switcher and the #60 Trolley.  All three are still special favorites, but the boxcab will always rank in first place.

In my opinion the most difficult OGauge Item to find is the the 5 700K Kits. I have never seen all 5 kits.

My idea of a Holy Grail of Lionel trains would be highly desireable, highly sought after, difficult to acquire. 

With that said, Prewar would definitely be the 700E, Standard gauge State sets, Blue Comet. Hellgate bridge.

Postwar would be 2341 Jersey Central FM, rare versions of the GG-1, some of the difficult F-3's.

offering some non-Lionel suggestions...

 

American Flyer (O)...

Type IV cast iron/ steel hybrid, 0-4-2 clockwork locomotive (1911-1914)

6½", 8-wheel, five-window Chicago cars (1910-1912)

 

Hafner...

#127 cast iron, 0-4-0, clockwork locomotive (1914-1919)

6 3/8", 8-wheel, Overland Flyer cars (ca. 1916-1925)

 

Marx...

#666 diecast clockwork locomotive

Popeye & Olive Oyl handcar w/ original figures

6" tin NKP dump car with automatic (metal fork) couplers

Joyline (Girard), cast iron, 0-4-0, electric locomotive w/ Power House transformer

 

Dorfan...

Uncataloged 4-4-0, #770 steam locomotive (O gauge)

#3930, #3931, #3932, 4-4-4, loco-builder engine (electric outline, std gauge)

actually, any original Dorfan electric outline locomotive (though a few steamers seem to have survived, you rarely see an original electric outline loco, especially std gauge)

 

arguably, i should probably include some of the English made Flyer and Marx, many of which are quite rare.

 

i have seen most of the above pieces only one time in about three decades of collecting excluding the Popeye handcar (never seen with recognizable figures), the NKP dump car & the Joyline C/I electric set (seen 2 or 3 times) and the Dorfan locomotives listed (never).

As desirable and in demand are the 700EW and the Blue Comets, many were made of both. They are quite numerous and acquiring one just takes money. I see several of each during every York.

 

Much 'tougher' and more grail-like are vintage samples of the Ives O and wide gauge circus sets or the AF Mayflower in wide gauge. I have seen only one Ives circus set (complete) and two nice original Mayflowers in 18 years of attending York. I have seen only two Ives wide gauge circus sets and they are both in the collections of very well-heeled collectors. The early No. 300 Converse/Lionel trolleys and early wooden No. 200 Electric Express are truly rare (that much overused word).

 

Bob

I remember going to the Monroeville Train Shows back in the early eighties. A very distinguished well dressed gentleman with the last name of Turner would be there selling original Hudson parts from wooden cases.

For me, in the Standard/Wide gauge catagory, the Ives Prosperity Special.  Beautiful train and only a handful in existence.

I would have to divide O gauge in to pre- war and post- war. With out a doubt the 700K would be the Holy Grail in pre-war O gauge trains. Between 1970 and 1998 I never laid my eyes on one. For post war I would pick the 1960 Father and Son Set ( Super O /HO Set). Never saw one of them even as a kid in 1960, not that ther was a lot to see in Norfolk, Virginia in those days

As Andy Hummel opined, a 700E,  mint in original box, would certainly be a prime candidate for train collecting's "holy grail" honors.  He added, "(if any exist in this state)".

 

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I recall watching an OGR video from several years ago which featured an interview with a collector, a dentist from Toronto nicknamed by fellow collectors as "Dr. Mint", who had recently purchased a mint in OB 700E, reportedly for $35,000. One would presume that whoever owns it today has taken pains to preserve it in that mint original condition, so there must still be at least one out there.

 

By the  way, my nomination for "holy grail" status would be the original one-of-a-kind "Brute" prototype, not the admittedly wonderful and iconic 700E!

That wouldn't fit into this topic, however.

 

"but what do you consider the pinnacle of 3 rail electric trains?"

 

I consider the OGR Forum and the people who participate here to be the pinnacle of 3 rail trains.  Without this forum I would never have learned as much as I have and there are some great people on here...

 

 

 

 

Marx Easter Bunny train. A bad idea for Easter 1935 makes it one of the rarest of rare O-gauge trains today!

http://www.toyandtrainguides.com/marxtin/jl/bunny.htm

Refer to the last few pages of the Lionel 1948 catalog.  There you will see the Lionel Sturdy Boy Shirt.

 Haven't see one yet.

 

Lou N

 

 

Lionel prewar 700E full scale Hudson prototype in brass. Same one on JLC desk?

 

sold at Stout Auction for 70,000

 

 

Ooh, this is an old thread... 

I'll also cast a vote for the 700E, but mostly because I've loved it as long as I can remember and don't know enough to pick something that better fits.  I suppose this goes to the original poster's examples being things that are NOW "holy grails"  but I don't think the 700E really is quite the same thing.  Both, early comics and baseball cards are only valuable now because they were made to be disposable, and while many were printed, only a few made it through without being tossed by parents or stuffed in the spokes of a bicycle.  That's what makes them valuable now. For O-gauge, I don't know what compares accurately?  Mass produced but mostly trashed?  Maybe some of the paper and cardboard stuff from WWII?  Don't know if a lot of that made it through?  

Does anyone have/know of a video out there of the Marx Bunny train?  Just to find one going around a track seems to be a grail in it's own right.

Several years ago a Doctor in Canada (I know him well) bought a 700E from from a dealer in NJ mint in the box. It was never opened(still sealed) for $25,000. he did eventually open it.

I'm thinking perhaps Lionel's Pennsylvania GG1.

 

Or Lionel's Santa Fe Warbonnet F3.

 

     Hoppy

This is an easy one.  The Vision line Hudson.  Eddie, when you come to the house this week, I will let you run the best Hudson ever made.

So-called "Holy Grails" are the stuff of myths and legends, and do not exist in reality.

I'm voting for the $253,000 state set .  That is standard gauge.  The story provided was enough to convince me.  I need a Green Illinois state passenger car with cream inserts in the original box!

Originally Posted by Tinplate Art:

Two statements, both so very true. There's nothing in this hobby that is and never will be a so called, "Holy Grail".    

 

"Pappy"

I will amend my post, if I may, and it would be finding a mint in the box set comparable to the green state set with a history behind it, and had been forgotten about for years until I just happened to stumble upon it and liberate it to share with the rest of humanity.   After I play with it for a week.  And then cash in mightily selling it to a deep pockets collector who will give it the perfect home.  Whatever that is.  Everyone is happy.  Good karma.

Lionel #200 wooden gondola with JLC's writing on it.

 http://www.train-station.com/Pages/archives/room1.html

 

What's with the analysis of the op's use of the term "Holy Grail"?  It's obvious he's asking what you consider the rarest of the rare in regards to model trains.  Don't think he is interested in your definition of "Holy Grail".  

 

I'd go along with that!

I like the Lionel milestone pieces. 

The Mickey Mouse Handcar that saved Lionel from it's first visit to the brink of financial failure in 1934.

Perhaps not collectors big items, but the historical importance grabs me.

 

The 700E that demonstrated that Lionel could produce a scale locomotive. Boy, they sure built a nice one!

 

 

 

Mickey Stuff:

" Lionel Trains was another company that was helped by Mickey in the 1930s.  Lionel had been a very prosperous company that appeared to weather the initial blows of the 1929 stock market crash.  But, the economic crisis soon caught up with the company, and by 1931 sales dropped dramatically at Lionel as Americans tightened their belts. In the 1930s, however, Lionel introduced the Mickey Mouse wind-up handcar toy that came with a box of its own track. The reaction to the toy caught Lionel by surprise. Selling for $1 or less ($16 in 2007 dollars), the company sold over 250,000 units in under four months and could not keep up with demand.  The Mickey Mouse Handcar train toy would sell over one million units in three years.  Still, even with Mickey’s success, Lionel would continue to struggle.  Yet some credit this one toy with keeping the company from bankruptcy.  The toy brought Lionel cash flow, positive business press, and access to funding for other profitable projects." Pop History Dig

 

Also, Lionel Tracks scroll down to the 1935 ad

 

 

The Holy Grail for me and Teddy(grandson) would be the 1950 773 and Madison car set. Anyone want to donate one

 

Mike

Only kidding.

 

 

Lionel gunmetal 763e and coal tender.