How Bachmann ruined Williams Trains

I would disagree with this premise.  Williams was lucky to find a buyer for its product line while Weaver did not and MTH is now just a shell of once it once was.  I would argue that Bachmann's purchase of Williams allowed the line to survive more or less intact for at least another 10 years and the current lack of production of the line is more a function of the market than anything Bachmann did to hurt the brand.  The integration of former K-Line tooling into the brand was a nice bonus even if the MSRP was more in line with what we were seeing for command control locomotives from other manufacturers. 

One of the hallmarks of Williams over the years was that Jerry Williams successfully navigated the transition from a reproduction manufacturer or Lionel, Marx, and Kusan tooling into a producer of decent budget priced scale locomotives.  In that sense perhaps, Bachmann dropped the ball for not being as flexible as Williams.  However, the overall the market for O gauge and O scale trains has been a diminishing one for several years now.  It is also difficult for a company to sell a new product when nearly new or new product can be found on the secondary market for less than that new price.

I have soft spot for Williams brass.  Great budget product and an awesome starting point for modelers wanting to kit bash or super detail.  But like many, I didn't buy new Williams products after 2007 or so and that is part of why we are where we are with the product line.

Jonathan,

Thanks for the response to my post.  I was hoping it would generate some discussion about Bachmann vs Williams.

You make some good points, but I think Bachmann's price strategy definitely hurt the Williams brand.  Those of us that have been in the hobby for a while knew Williams products were available at 30-50% off MSRP, but not new people or those with less experience.  No one would buy a Williams engine at the same price point as a fully featured MTH or Lionel product.

I think we can all agree that the loss of Williams is a big loss for the hobby, especially those without big budgets.  Any other opinions?  I'd like to hear them.

John

I think @GG1 4877 pretty much nailed it.  I can't comprehend Bachmann's pricing strategy - IMO, a Bachmann engine should cost about half of their current MSRP to account for the lack of sophisticated electronics and lower level of detail.  Can anyone speculate on their logic?

Another thing that probably hurt them is the blowout pricing that Trainworld was able to do - I think it created a mental baseline of what WBB items "should" cost.  This isn't Bachmann's "fault", but it makes it harder to sell their product.

It also seems like it should be fairly easy for Bachmann to continue to produce existing items at a more attractive price point, since there's no need for product design and they have relationships with manufacturing facilities.  It's a mystery why they don't do it.

Williams models were what got me from just running my grandpa's postwar trains into the modern realm. I agree that the Bachmann price structure was ridiculous and the sticker shock probably scared a lot of people off. The lack of command control was the nail in the coffin. With just basic TMCC I think many of their products would remain a viable part of the market, but competing with Lionchief and DCS equipped starter sets as an analog only company is tough in today's world. As a side note, Bachmann has the tooling for K-Line's excellent Bombardier commuter cars which I guess we'll never see again...

MSRP is a "suggested" price and retailers can charge above or below that depending on what the market will bear.  There is a business strategy to have a MSRP higher than the expected selling price at the retail level so customers feel like they are getting a deal.   This might be Bachmann's strategy; MSRP near their competitor's price but street values that make the customer leave smiling on the deal they got.  I also don't think new people to the hobby are going to Bachmann's web site where they see only the MSRP.  They are seeing retailer advertising or walking into a hobby shop where they see "50% below MSRP". 

Would be interesting to know if Bachmann has a MAP (minimum advertised price) policy to ensure retailers are not advertising at too low a price.

@CAPPilot posted:

MSRP is a "suggested" price and retailers can charge above or below that depending on what the market will bear.  There is a business strategy to have a MSRP higher than the expected selling price at the retail level so customers feel like they are getting a deal.   This might be Bachmann's strategy; MSRP near their competitor's price but street values that make the customer leave smiling on the deal they got.  I also don't think new people to the hobby are going to Bachmann's web site where they see only the MSRP.  They are seeing retailer advertising or walking into a hobby shop where they see "50% below MSRP".

Would be interesting to know if Bachmann has a MAP (minimum advertised price) policy to ensure retailers are not advertising at too low a price.

I get being able to discount off of MSRP, but when a 50% discount is needed just to be competitive, it's ridiculous and nonsensical, especially when their MSRP on other scales is in line with the competition.  Good question about MAP.

@Will Ebbert posted:

Williams models were what got me from just running my grandpa's postwar trains into the modern realm. I agree that the Bachmann price structure was ridiculous and the sticker shock probably scared a lot of people off. The lack of command control was the nail in the coffin. With just basic TMCC I think many of their products would remain a viable part of the market, but competing with Lionchief and DCS equipped starter sets as an analog only company is tough in today's world. As a side note, Bachmann has the tooling for K-Line's excellent Bombardier commuter cars which I guess we'll never see again...

I didn't know about the Bombardier cars - that's a real shame.

Song something discounted that heavily is kind of concerning in my opinion. And their prices were on the back cover of every issue of CTT for many years so newbies saw MSRP there.

@Will Ebbert posted:

The lack of command control was the nail in the coffin. With just basic TMCC I think many of their products would remain a viable part of the market, but competing with Lionchief and DCS equipped starter sets as an analog only company is tough in today's world.

Interesting.

The Wms⇒Bachmann transition occurred while I was working my second career...LHS Trains Dept...and our staff dreaded the thought that B would rush to buy into the 'stuff-it-full-of-electronics' paradigm at the time.  We took every phone call, trade show, et al opportunity to encourage B to do a quality job, BUT KEEP IT CONVENTIONAL!  And so they did...to the delight of many, many of our customers.

I agree with many of the comments so far.  I especially dispute that Bachmann "killed" Williams, though.  Bachmann has had a 150+ year history of being in the toy business...internationally, even.  Even though other mfrs...like Lionel...focused on the O market, Bachmann had not.  It was a late addition to their world of Trains.  Too late, as it turns out.  They actually tried to resuscitate the fine Williams product line...and even add to it.  But it was too late to find their own niche in the O market.  Eventually they put their investments where the payoff was better.

And, in a similar manner I would suggest that this is not unlike the business story of another BIG trains producer...LIONEL!...trying to make a go of it in () HO!  How many times?  How many times did it NOT work out?  And, no, they didn't "kill" anything. They found it uncompetitive in a market they were not noted for investing in...with a 'niche' no more than just they're brand name.

I believe there have been some business transactions that attempted to resuscitate some modern day S scale manufacturers' product lines, too.  Those often heroic efforts have really had a steep climb to make a go of it in a scale market having a small fraction of the buying demographics at this point in hobby history.

I rather think we should thank Bachmann for giving the Williams line a few more good years, some nice new/improved products in the O scale category.  And my 20+ years at the LHS saw Bachmann improve their other product lines...On30, HO, N, G, especially...to be highly competitive in the mass market.

IMHO, of course.

And FWIW.

KD

My concern with Bachmann in recent years has been their neglect of the On30 market, which they actually popularized in the U.S. some decades ago. After H. Lee Riley (the true "father" of On30 in regard to U.S. acceptance) passed, they simply pretty much let things slide in a segment of the hobby that has--today--some of the most creative modeling and modeling potential seen in any scale. They still do some On30, but not anywhere near what they did in the past.

As far as Williams is concerned, they (Bachmann) were kind of stuck between a rock and as hard place. Williams motive power is/was pretty much bullet-proof, and was much preferred by many who operate high-running-time public displays. Easy to keep running, and easy to repair if that ever was needed. It is a shame that they have apparently decided to let the line slide, but I'm sure the fact that many or most in this segment of the hobby today--especially those new to the hobby--tend to gravitate to digital command control and the associated bells and whistles.

I miss Williams.  Their engines were bulletproof and pulled like an ox.  I may be one of the few on the Forum who runs mostly conventional.  I have the fancy stuff too but often there are problems with them.  I think my Williams engines will run forever, but I worry about when my newer engines go down and there are no parts of service for them.

They should have been able to produce new road numbers for the locomotives, cabooses, and freight cars every year. More road  numbers would have given operators more reason to purchase a new locomotive or freight car.

You can NOT sell what you refuse to produce.

Andrew