Just curious, back in the steam era how did the Pennsylvania RR move steam engines to and from the Long Island Railroad? How were they routed? What other railroads were involved if any?
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Three options:
Ferry (unlikely)
Over the He!! Gate Bridge via the New Haven
Towed through the PRR North River Tunnels under the Hudson, through Penn Station and to Sunnyside Yard in Queens.
How would the cylinders and valves get lubricated with no steam while being towed? Maybe they had a light fire to have some working steam and by slightly cracking the throttle while being towed through the tunnel.
Tinplate Art posted:How would the cylinders and valves get lubricated with no steam while being towed? Maybe they had a light fire to have some working steam and by slightly cracking the throttle while being towed through the tunnel.
Or,,,,,,,,they could have removed the main rod & excentric rod, and towed it slowly, i.e. below 20 MPH.
Remove the rods.
Jim Harrington posted:Remove the rods.
Better not remove all the rods!
they only have to remove the main rod, from the piston to the axle crank. Then the wheels turn and the side rods (connecting the wheels) ride along but all the valve gear motion does not move. I think that is how the got the 611 to Spencer for the "streamliners at Spencer" meet before they did the work on it. I saw it there with wooden slats wrapped around the crank pins with the main rod removed. this was before the show and it had not been inside yet.
The LIRR had quite a few PRR steam engines, so those transport crews must have been "busy bees" dropping and replacing valve gear rods for tunnel transport! All in a day's work, I suppose!
The "Big Engine", PRR S1 6100 went to Long Island for the 1939/1940 World's Fair via the Bev Del Line, the L&HR and the New Haven, via the Poughkeepsie Bridge and H-E-Double L Gate Bridge to the Fremont interchange. I assume that would be the standard routing for PRR steam locomotives to and from the LIRR.
This site won't allow me to type out the actual name of the bridge between the Bronx and Queens.
Seriously doubt they were allowed to move anything with an open flame through the tunnels. Even the GG1 motors had to extinguish their steam heat boilers before moving from Sunnyside through Penn and then to the Bergaqn Hill portals before they were allowed to relight the boiler. Same in reverse, boilers had to be extinguished before entering the tunnels at Bergan Hill.
Buzz
One other alternative was car float. Back in the day there was an extensive network of car floats moving, mostly freight, around New York harbor. It would have been no problem to move a G5 or H10 on a car float, The S1, likely, took a circuitous route because of its length and weight. I can't see the Pennsy using foreign roads to move the motive power nor could I see them using Penn as an alternate route since Penn has always been busy and any problem could seriously affect passenger traffic.
Interesting question; I'd like to know the answer.
Even the K4s would have been able to be transported by car float as a few of those ran on the LIRR as well. I'd like to hear someone who actually knows the answer as it is an interesting question.
Nick Chillianis posted:The "Big Engine", PRR S1 6100 went to Long Island for the 1939/1940 World's Fair via the Bev Del Line, the L&HR and the New Haven, via the Poughkeepsie Bridge and H-E-Double L Gate Bridge to the Fremont interchange. I assume that would be the standard routing for PRR steam locomotives to and from the LIRR.
This site won't allow me to type out the actual name of the bridge between the Bronx and Queens.
Thanks Nick, that seems to be a plausible routing.
Wouldn't it be a lot quicker and easier to go: NEC to Greenville Yard, car float to Bay Ridge Yard, Bay Ridge Branch to Fresh Pond Junction, Montauk Branch to Morris Park. Earl G.
lightningstripe posted:Wouldn't it be a lot quicker and easier to go: NEC to Greenville Yard, car float to Bay Ridge Yard, Bay Ridge Branch to Fresh Pond Junction, Montauk Branch to Morris Park. Earl G.
I don't know if the New York harbor car floats had the capacity to handle locomotives. In every photograph I've ever seen there are idler flat cars used between the locomotive and the cars being loaded to keep the locomotive off of the apron and the car float. I'd love to get a definitive answer. L1s Mikes made it to the LIRR during WWII, and later a trio of L1s were used as stationary boilers at the Wheelspur Yard in Long Island City.
Great question and some interesting speculation.
They were car floated in thru Brooklyn or Long Island City. They were brought in over the Hellgate too.
The car floats could handle them if they were shipped one at a time by them selves on the float.
I inquired with a friend of mine who is from LI and very knowledgeable about the LIRR.
T
Nick Chillianis posted:lightningstripe posted:Wouldn't it be a lot quicker and easier to go: NEC to Greenville Yard, car float to Bay Ridge Yard, Bay Ridge Branch to Fresh Pond Junction, Montauk Branch to Morris Park. Earl G.
I don't know if the New York harbor car floats had the capacity to handle locomotives. In every photograph I've ever seen there are idler flat cars used between the locomotive and the cars being loaded to keep the locomotive off of the apron and the car float. I'd love to get a definitive answer. L1s Mikes made it to the LIRR during WWII, and later a trio of L1s were used as stationary boilers at the Wheelspur Yard in Long Island City.
One reason to restrict locomotives on the floats had to be to avoid imbalance on the outside tracks. Maybe they used the middle track of the float for locomotives. But the total weight of a G-5 or an H-10 was about 8,000 lb per foot. Comparing with freight cars, a loaded 50 ton hopper was bout 3,500 lb/ft, so it could have been that the locomotives were too heavy for floats.
The best route for the PRR then would have been via the L&HR. PRR , according to the 1930 Moody's Transportation Manual, had trackage rights over the L&HE from Easton to reach the Poughkeepsie Bridge. The New Haven was a friendly connection.
It seems like a long move, but it I would think it was a one time move. I suspect that none of those engines ever returned from the LIRR and that one move would have been no big deal in the overall context of PRR finances.
If, in fact, the PRR did move those engines across the Hudson on car floats, it stands to reason someone would have taken a photograph of such an operation at some point. In all my several volumes of LIRR histories, including some with many photographs like Ron Ziel's excellent Steel Rails to the Sunrise, there would be such a photo, but alas, there is not! I am inclined to go with the tow dead through the tunnels with appropriate rod drops. Besides, the shortest distance between two points is.....
I have never seen a photo of steam engines with rods removed, being moved thru the tunnels and Penn Station either. Apparently no proof of that happening.
Keep in mind, the Erie, Lackawanna and other railroads with freight terminals in NYC, had to bring locomotives back and fourth from the city yards to engine repair shops in NJ. They barged them back and fourth.
Also, here is a story about a locomotive being delivered via Greeenville yard...a PRR float yard...to Long Island
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Still a mystery, but weighing some of the possibilites, L.I. steam locomotives probably moved from the Greenville Yards in Jersey City, NJ to Long Island City, NY via carfloats as KRIEGLOK suggested.
Hopefully, a photo of a G5 or a K4 on a car float will emerge. Dropping and replacing rods is a PITA even for skilled crews, plus tunnel clearances for modern steam like G5's and K4's might have been prohibitive. I have personally removed side rods from a 2-8-0 and it involved removing a large cotter key first, and then using a LARGE socket with an at least 6' cheater bar, plus a small crane to lift the rod. Time consuming labor, where time is $$$$!
We still don't have a good idea of the weight bearing capacity of the floats. We can see from the photo above that a float could handle about 20 hopper cars. With 50 ton cars fully loaded, we get about 1400 tons. The engine weight of a K-4 was about 155 tons. That tells us that the total weight capacity of the float would allow several locomotives.
But given the locomotive length, it weighed about 3.6 tons per foot. The hopper car was about 1.8 tons per foot. That meant that the structure of the barge had to be strong enough to carry double the weight of fully loaded freight cars at any point along the track. If the barge had been built with a safety factor of 2, that would barely do. With a safety factor of 3, no problem.
As for safety factors, when I studied engineering in the 50's, we were taught that it should be more than 2, but that anything over 3 might be wasting material.
Krieglok posted:
I have never seen a photo of steam engines with rods removed, being moved thru the tunnels and Penn Station either. Apparently no proof of that happening.
Keep in mind, the Erie, Lackawanna and other railroads with freight terminals in NYC, had to bring locomotives back and fourth from the city yards to engine repair shops in NJ. They barged them back and fourth.
Also, here is a story about a locomotive being delivered via Greeenville yard...a PRR float yard...to Long Island
Both of those locomotives would have had much lower axle loadings than a K-4
Good point. Someone out there may have a definitive answer. Never really thought about this issue, and it is a great question.
mlaughlinnyc posted:It seems like a long move, but it I would think it was a one time move. I suspect that none of those engines ever returned from the LIRR and that one move would have been no big deal in the overall context of PRR finances.
Wrong regarding your assumption PRR power that went to LIRR was a "one time move" as they were leased to LIRR. In the case of K4's it was a summer lease to help with the increased passenger business out to the Hamptons/Montauk. At end of summer the K4's went back to PRR. Other PRR steam may have stayed longer but most were leased and had to be returned to PRR eventually. Also wasn't limited to steam - LIRR had both a PRR Alco PA and FM Erie-built on the property for brief testing in the mid-1950's. A photo exists of the Erie-built at Patchogue so it did happen.
Additionally when LIRR retired their steam many of them were scrapped in Modena, PA so they had to get them across the harbor somehow. Photographic evidence exists showing LIRR steam at Modena awaiting the torch. IIRC a few photos of this are in a couple of the LIRR books. Modena is near Coatesville (west of Philadelphia) so it wasn't a real long distance to move dead steam.
Sorry but I have no idea how locomotives got transferred from PRR to LIRR. One would think in such a populated metropolitan area there would be recollections and pictures of same. I do know when LIRR retired the GP38-2's they left the Island via barge - have seen a couple of photos of that.
"The truth is out there!"
A really good question. One thing to keep in mind is that the Pennsylvania only took over the LIRR around the turn of the 20th century, whereas it had been operating since the 1830's, not to mention this was well before the tunnels or the H gate bridge were built (1908-1909), so where did engines go before the tunnels were opened or before the bridge was there? Could they have in that period shipped the parts in via ship and built them locally with possibly some parts made in what is now Brooklyn and Queens? Or did they float them, pretty impressive in the mid 19th century, to say the least.
Once the bridge and tunnels were in place the other suggested routes were possible. The New Haven wouldn't have seen the LIRR as a threat particularly, they didn't compete directly with them the way they did with the NYC, so the poughkeepsie to bridge route might have worked. With the tunnels assuming the engines could fit in the tubes, could they have gotten permission to bring them through the tubes via the north river tunnel under their own power, as long as they were done when no other trains were using the tubes? (I know there are regulations against using steam in the tunnels thanks to accidents going into Grand Central, but could they be able to get an exemption for moving engines in occasionally?).
I have asked this of some friends who are pretty knowledgeable about the history of trains in the NY region, and they all basically said they hadn't thought of it, and were surprised that in the material they had there was no mention of it. For the record they thought the most likely method was car float, that possibly they had barges designed to take big loads, but it was only a guess based on the difficulties with the other methods, and in the 19th century was likely the only way they could get to Long Island. One friend reminded me that the Brooklyn Bridge was designed to take the weight of standard steam trains as an intriguing thought, but my knowledge of the bridge tells me that they never even attempted that (and would only apply post 1883, in any event, leaving nearly 50 years of operation before the bridge was built). My guess would be car float, but hopefully someone will come up with the method or methods they used.
I've changed my mind about that routing. Why not through the tunnels and Penn Station. I was thinking about whether there would be a clearance problem with platforms, third rail or catenary. But then consider the fact that K-4's were run through stations at Newark (catenary) and Jamaica (third rail). The maximum width over cylinders was 10' 3 1/4". The width of a GG-1 was 10' 4". The smokestack height of a K-4 was exactly 15', within an inch of that of a GG-1 with pantographs down.
Now I'll look at it as an operating man. I've got a string of locomotives. Do I want to fiddle around with weight distribution and strength of a car float. Don't want to get bogged down having the engineering department in on that. I'll call an extra local crew to haul that locomotive string from Waverly Yard to Penn Station with a P-5. Then the LI will use a DD-1 to take them out to Jamaica. Do it in the middle of the night on a weekend - plenty of track time available and using normally idle locomotives.
That's so simple so why worry about any other route ?
As for the question of running the engines through the tunnels under steam, that question is moot. An engine being hauled dead in a train would have had its fire dropped and the water system drained.
mlaughlinnyc posted:I've changed my mind about that routing. Why not through the tunnels and Penn Station. I was thinking about whether there would be a clearance problem with platforms, third rail or catenary. But then consider the fact that K-4's were run through stations at Newark (catenary) and Jamaica (third rail). The maximum width over cylinders was 10' 3 1/4". The width of a GG-1 was 10' 4". The smokestack height of a K-4 was exactly 15', within an inch of that of a GG-1 with pantographs down.
Now I'll look at it as an operating man. I've got a string of locomotives. Do I want to fiddle around with weight distribution and strength of a car float. Don't want to get bogged down having the engineering department in on that. I'll call an extra local crew to haul that locomotive string from Waverly Yard to Penn Station with a P-5. Then the LI will use a DD-1 to take them out to Jamaica. Do it in the middle of the night on a weekend - plenty of track time available and using normally idle locomotives.
That's so simple so why worry about any other route ?
As for the question of running the engines through the tunnels under steam, that question is moot. An engine being hauled dead in a train would have had its fire dropped and the water system drained.
Simple yes, but I would worry if a there was a derailment with a 155 ton K4 in the tunnel.
Steam engines were running on the LIRR long before PRR became the owner in 1900. I don't believe any were manufactured on the island. And this predated the Hudson and East River Tunnels (circa 1910) and the Hellgate Bridge (1917). So - how did steam engines arrive on the island prior to the PRR?
MELGAR
Clearances aside, towing dead steam through the tunnels still does not address the cylinders/valves lubrication issue unless some rods were dropped. With the manpower PRR had at its disposal, that probably was no big deal. The rods could be reattached either at Sunnyside or at Morris Park by LIRR crews.
PAUL ROMANO posted:mlaughlinnyc posted:I've changed my mind about that routing. Why not through the tunnels and Penn Station. I was thinking about whether there would be a clearance problem with platforms, third rail or catenary. But then consider the fact that K-4's were run through stations at Newark (catenary) and Jamaica (third rail). The maximum width over cylinders was 10' 3 1/4". The width of a GG-1 was 10' 4". The smokestack height of a K-4 was exactly 15', within an inch of that of a GG-1 with pantographs down.
Now I'll look at it as an operating man. I've got a string of locomotives. Do I want to fiddle around with weight distribution and strength of a car float. Don't want to get bogged down having the engineering department in on that. I'll call an extra local crew to haul that locomotive string from Waverly Yard to Penn Station with a P-5. Then the LI will use a DD-1 to take them out to Jamaica. Do it in the middle of the night on a weekend - plenty of track time available and using normally idle locomotives.
That's so simple so why worry about any other route ?
As for the question of running the engines through the tunnels under steam, that question is moot. An engine being hauled dead in a train would have had its fire dropped and the water system drained.
Simple yes, but I would worry if a there was a derailment with a 155 ton K4 in the tunnel.
Might you be worried about a 238 ton GG-1 ? Well maintained very straight track and no need to use a diverging route through a switch.
MELGAR posted:Steam engines were running on the LIRR long before PRR became the owner in 1900. I don't believe any were manufactured on the island. And this predated the Hudson and East River Tunnels (circa 1910) and the Hellgate Bridge (1917). So - how did steam engines arrive on the island prior to the PRR?
MELGAR
Same way they got to many other isolated railroads in the early 19th century, steamship and barge.
Tinplate Art posted:Clearances aside, towing dead steam through the tunnels still does not address the cylinders/valves lubrication issue unless some rods were dropped. With the manpower PRR had at its disposal, that probably was no big deal. The rods could be reattached either at Sunnyside or at Morris Park by LIRR crews.
The roundhouse at Jamaica seems best. I think it was the only LIRR steam facility that you could get to with an electric locomotive. Where is Morris Park ?
The rods probably would have been dropped anyway as there were likely to be other road moves involved.
Morris Park, located on Atlantic Avenue in Jamaica, was the steam engine servicing facility with a coaling tower and an area where light maintenance was done. Trains from Flatbush Avenue in Brooklyn also emerged from their Atlantic Avenue tunnels adjacent to the servicing facility and continued on to Jamaica Station.
Tinplate Art posted:Clearances aside, towing dead steam through the tunnels still does not address the cylinders/valves lubrication issue unless some rods were dropped. With the manpower PRR had at its disposal, that probably was no big deal. The rods could be reattached either at Sunnyside or at Morris Park by LIRR crews.
True. I think back to a documentary I saw once about Portland's steam engines, and it was mentioned that in the 1920s the Espee 80' turntable at Brooklyn Yard was replaced with a 100' upgrade. The doc said it took just several hours to do this. Wonder how long something like that might take today...
(Photo from "Wx4 Dome O Foam" website)
Mark in Oregon
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Strummer posted:Tinplate Art posted:Clearances aside, towing dead steam through the tunnels still does not address the cylinders/valves lubrication issue unless some rods were dropped. With the manpower PRR had at its disposal, that probably was no big deal. The rods could be reattached either at Sunnyside or at Morris Park by LIRR crews.
True. I think back to a documentary I saw once about Portland's steam engines, and it was mentioned that in the 1920s the Espee 80' turntable at Brooklyn Yard was replaced with a 100' upgrade. The doc said it took just several hours to do this. Wonder how long something like that might take today...
(Photo from "Wx4 Dome O Foam" website)
Mark in Oregon
It may have taken only "several hours" to remove the old table bridge and install the new 100 foot bridge, but there was many weeks and months of advanced work involved in enlarging the turntable pit walls and still retain the working 80 foot turntable. As the pit was was enlarged, each track had to have a supporting bridge work under that track, in order for it to continue in service. The day of the "big change-over" all that supporting bridge work would then be knocked out/down in order to reveal the new concrete pit wall. All that "advance work" takes a very long time, all without interfering with the everyday work load of the locomotive terminal.
Hot Water posted:Strummer posted:Tinplate Art posted:Clearances aside, towing dead steam through the tunnels still does not address the cylinders/valves lubrication issue unless some rods were dropped. With the manpower PRR had at its disposal, that probably was no big deal. The rods could be reattached either at Sunnyside or at Morris Park by LIRR crews.
True. I think back to a documentary I saw once about Portland's steam engines, and it was mentioned that in the 1920s the Espee 80' turntable at Brooklyn Yard was replaced with a 100' upgrade. The doc said it took just several hours to do this. Wonder how long something like that might take today...
(Photo from "Wx4 Dome O Foam" website)
Mark in Oregon
It may have taken only "several hours" to remove the old table bridge and install the new 100 foot bridge, but there was many weeks and months of advanced work involved in enlarging the turntable pit walls and still retain the working 80 foot turntable. As the pit was was enlarged, each track had to have a supporting bridge work under that track, in order for it to continue in service. The day of the "big change-over" all that supporting bridge work would then be knocked out/down in order to reveal the new concrete pit wall. All that "advance work" takes a very long time, all without interfering with the everyday work load of the locomotive terminal.
I have seen plenty of examples of this kind of thing, where a changeover or whatever happens in seemingly a rapid fashion when the reason it looks rapid is a ton of work is done to allow it to happen like that, that is 'under the covers'. I remember reading an account of when the railroads switched to standard gauge and how the conversion happened relatively rapidly. Of course what they didn't see was the planning required there, how the railroads set themselves up to be able to do that, that they had materials staged to allow converting locomotives and rolling stock to the new gauge, they had done things like had the ties pre drilled (where existing ties could be used) or had new ties there all ready pretty much to accept rail, other railroads from what I remember used the prototype equivalent of "sectional track".
And of course when people compare it to 'how long it takes today', they leave out the difference in the times. Back when a lot of these kind of things were done, employee safety was not always a big deal and working workers around the clock wasn't particularly a costly deal since labor laws were non existent (and base pay wasn't great to start with), they could work rapidly and if an accident happened, well, that was just too bad (kind of like in Blazing Saddles when the two guys hit the quicksand, and they save the hand car because it cost whatever, and leave the guys to sink).
Good summary of the bad old days: hot, heavy, dangerous work with poor compensation with expendable workers! 😐
