How good are the gearboxes of the sunset 3rd engines like the 4-8-4's ,2-10-4's are they heavy duty ?

Here is a video of two 3rd Rail locomotives running on the Independent Hirailers Midwest Division layout.  It is not uncommon for these to log well over 200 scale miles in a weekend, sometime more. 

 

The NP northern is owned by Paul Sherwin, and the DM&IR texas is owned by Mark Homstad. 

 

None of us in the IHMD who are running 3rd Rail steam had a gearbox fail. 

 

 

 

 

 

There are plenty more videos on my Youtube site of other 3rd Rail locomotives in operation. 

 

3rd Rail is the only reason I even got into three rail.  Best value for the money available in my opinion. 

 

Regards,

GNNPNUT

Hi,  3rd rail steam and diesel engines use a belt drive instead of a gear drive.  Scott Mann, 3rd Rail's owner, once told me that he has never had one of his engines returned to repair a broken drive train.  It is the most reliable part of their engines.  My 3rd Rail engines have operated for years without problems to drive train.  I don't lubricate the drive trains in these engines.  

 

I have had a few minor problems with electronics, etc.  I don't think you will have any problem with the drive train on any 3rd Rail engine.  3rd Rail's service is outstanding if you do have a problem with any part of their engines.  In my experience, you can buy a 3rd Rail engine with confidence that it will work.  

 

Joe

Very early Sunset had brass axle gears, and they would fail in a couple of hours.  Mort changed to good gear bronze, and I have not heard of a failure since then.  Changing an older axle gear is not difficult, if you have a way to re-quarter the driver.

hello Ted Sowirka and guys........

does anyone know what type of drive system used in the 3rd rail sunset santa fe  5011 class 2-10-4 ?  I hope this engine uses a bronze axle gear and non-belt drive gear box.

the woman who loves toy trains

Tiffany

They all use the tooth belt.  It is a superb solution to power transmission, and usually silent.  Opinion.

hello guys and gals.........

 Does gentleman name "timko" make after market all metal heavy duty gearboxes for large o scale locomotives like 4-8-2's and larger or is it someone else?  Timko the one who does can motor exchanged with lionel's pullmor motors or is it someone else? anyone know ? 

the woman who loves toy trains

Tiffany

 

I guess I'm a bit confused by this question. You don't even have any Sunset/3rd Rail steam locomotive models yet, and you are already inquiring about re-motoring one? I have quite a number of 3rd Rail steam locomotive models plus I run pretty long trains on the Independent Hi-Railers, MidWest Division, as well as my own home layout, and have NEVER had ANY gear box/drive train issues with their products.

hello Hot Water.........

 don't be confused, i wasn't interesting in remotor the engine but to put in much better gearbox in it.  I thought Timko might be the man who makes gearboxes since he replaces pullmor motor locomotives with can motors for better operation such as the lionel older scale hudsons and so i thought he also makes gearboxes.  The earlier sunset locomotives had brass axle gears and of course they didn't last very long even if its well lubed.  I really don't know if Timko makes them or not so i am asking anyone if they know someone that does. I am sorry that i wasn't clear enough.

 

the woman who loves toy trains

Tiffany

Unless you're planning on pulling a 100 car train, I really don't think you have to worry about the gearbox on a sunset locomotive.  I've heard nothing but good things about their drives.  It's not even worth the extra money it would cost to do the conversion.

I'm sure any Sunset locomotive would be a big step up from your Railking Challenger.  I'm betting you'll be happy with your purchase!

Hello SantaFe158 and MichRR714.........

 

I wont be pulling 100 car trains as i don't have that kind of space unless living in shopping mall ( i love mall shopping LOL) but i have 7 railking operating cars and they are heavy as they weigh about 2 to 2 1/2 regular cars each.  I will be pulling those heavy cars plus 12 regular railking cars but i don't want to wear out the engine.  I hope i will enjoy the new brass engine, being closer to the prototype of the real thing except the over size lionel type couplers and very deep flanges and 3 rail track LOL.  My husband and i will be getting a small house next summer and hoping he can build me a 8 by 16 foot layout using 0-82 curves and 30 inch straights,072 switches if 8 by 16 is big enough for that.  We hope to spend our final years there after moving so many times in last 28 years !!!!!!!!!!!!   My husband has bone cancer at stage 4 since 2008 and hes doing well from the infusion treatments in last 4 years and will need plenty of rest so he can live longer SIGH.

 

the woman who loves toy trains

Tiffany

Here is a deal you cannot pass up.  You send me your brass geared axle, the proper gear (Sunset has them) and postage, and I will put the bronze gear on for you.

 

There are good gearboxes out there, but the Sunset is among the very best.  The box is heavy duty die cast, the worm is steel in ball bearings, and the axle gear is good bronze.  The only better gearboxes are the ones like Scale Craft used, and they are too big for a scale model.

 

Club members here take their models to the Museum and run them all day long.  I have not replaced an axle gear in well over a decade.  Well, at least not in a Sunset or Third Rail model.

Hello bob2..................

THANK YOU !!!!!!!!!, I WILL keep that in mind SMILE .  I am putting 300 dollar deposit and make payments for 60 days (1 payment 30TH day and final payment in 60TH day Nov 2012).  I will check out the gearbox as i am betting its a brass axle gear as this engine is made in 2002.  I don't know why they used brass gears in earlier large 4-8-2's and up models and knowing that the gears will wear out in few hours even well lubed. 

the woman who loves toy trains

Tiffany

If the gears are in fact well lubed they will last nearly forever. The purpose of grease and oil is to prevent metal to metal contact. Williams uses brass gears and just about anyone here can tell you they will run for years in commercial applications (8 hours a day) with periodic lubrication. As some here have confirmed 3rd Rail gearboxes are among the best available. Don't fix it if it ain't broken.

 

Pete

Here is a video of a 3rd Rail engine pulling a short train that 3 brand L diesels couldn't start.

 

If you want it, buy it. Just run it and if it breaks, fix it. You have nothing to lose since you are willing to replace it now and there is no point in fixing what is not broke now.

2002 was after the swap to bronze.

 

On those Williams brass gears, are you quite sure?  Good gear bronze looks yellow like brass.  The best lubrication in the world will not save a brass gear- six hours of operation max!  The same color bronze will last a lifetime.

 

We have found that the larger Bakelite gears last forever too, and the modern Celcon Acetyl last as long as bronze.  We have thousands of actual museum hours on a NWSL Mod 0.5 gearbox.  It has outlasted three motors.

We used Delrin gears in aviation cockpit instruments (before the glass cockpit rage), and they had an MTBF of 20,000 hours in actual operation.  Depending on the application, you can use plastic with excellent results.

Hello gunrunnerjohn.........

Delrin gears is a very good choice for gears to be use in N scale and H.O. locomotives even SMALL brass locomotives.

 

the woman who loves toy trains

Tiffany

Delrin and Celcon are excellent worm gear material, and it is independent of locomotive size, or even airplane instrument size.  My garage door opener has a plastic worm gear!

 

The reason Mort went to brass was because his customers preferred it.  When he started having problems, he immediately switched to bronze.

 

The problems with plastic usually relate to not enough aging before gear hobbing.  Ask Weaver about Gear splitting due to shrinkage. I will take plastic over bronze, but only if it is engineering plastic, properly aged before cutting.  NWSL taught me that, and I assume the new owners are adhering to that technique.

Using the proper manufacturing, I wouldn't be at all disappointed at having Delrin gears.  FWIW, my garage door opener also has a plastic gear, and it's lasted a looooong time.

 

Delrin gears are also very quiet and can be build to have practically zero backlash without binding so tight you can't turn them.  Much more difficult with metal gears, we normally used split gears with spring tension in those cases.

hello guys and gals............

 Would you buy a new car with Delrin gears in the automatic transmission ? i don't think so.........

the woman who loves toy trains

Tiffany

Do you have any idea what the material is for driving overhead camshafts?

 

How about that "plastic/fiberglass" rear spring assembly on Corvettes?

hello Hot Water ...............

 Yes I do!!!!!!, few years ago i build a mark VI 502 chevy starting with the short block w/ 4 bolt mains and dimple rods with 7/16 bolts using ARP hardware and used comp.cams with oval ported heads (perfect for the street) to be put in a 69' C-10 step side and will not use any plastic parts in the engine. 

 

the woman who loves toy trains

Tiffany

Very nice, but GM Big Blocks are NOT overhead cam engines.

hello Hot Water............

 that's very true but don't need overhead cams to go fast. Even ford's SOHC 427's uses 2 cams.   4 valve engines are turkeys until they been running in upper mid-range and up.  Lots of cubes rules the street.  You can go up to 632 or more cubes in merlin/dart/chevy blocks and still use single simple cam and dip into the low 9's.  Speed cost money , how fast you wanna go ?  Stick with model trains its a whole lot cheaper !!

the woman who loves toy trains

Tiffany

Okay.  You do not generally use bronze in auto or aircraft engine gears either.  This is not the same as a model steam engine, where plastic has been used since the 1930s.

Oops.  Just found a vacuum pump for larger aircraft engines with the engine driven end made of plastic.  And I believe some of the helical gears driving auto engine distributors have been nylon.

hello bob2.............

even the mopar 318's in passenger cars had nylon "coated" steel sprocket on the crankshafts and cam gear and the purpose is to quiet down the engine noise but when they get about 140,000 miles,the nylon coating wears off then the timing chain get really sloppy and skip a tooth or 2 thus have bend valves, bend push rods, holes in the pistons.  It happen to my dad's beloved 1981 fury and it destroyed the engine and had bits of broken metal pieces in bottom of the oil pan. My father took very good care of that car since it was new.  The bottom line is NO plastic parts in a hi-performance engine or you will pay dearly for the mistake.  I will only accept plastic bodies on freight cars and diesels,buildings, track ties and transformer housing as far as model trains go.  

 

the woman who loves toy trains

Tiffany

I know you're on a plastic gear vendetta Tiffany, but many engines with all metal gears also suffer the same fate.

 

Tiffany appears to want this tentative significant purchase(the new locomotive she's planning on buying) to be a safe investment; and that it will be reliable, for many years to come.

 

Looking ahead for solutions, re: possible weak points(things that could significantly negatively affect the performance of her chosen model), that would fit in with her budget, seems like the prudent thing to do.

 

 

Rick

 

How many people does it take that have run the dickens out of Sunset locomotives to convince someone who has zero experience with them that they have rock solid mechs?

 

Ed

It doesn"t make any difference, because it is a hobby.  If Tiffany wants steel axle gears, she can have them, so long as she realizes that dissimilar metals is the key.  There was a guy in Texas who provided compatible all-steel gearboxes - Cockerham, I believe.  He is no longer with us.

 

I think it is proven that a good plastic or bakelite axle gear in a model is slightly better than bronze, for longevity at least.  But Sunset uses bronze, and they last forever.  I believe Lionel and MTH also use bronze, and I have heard of no failures there either.  We did have a K-Line bronze axle gear failure, but that was after two years of daily operation.

Hello Rick B.........

 

THANK YOU............

the woman who loves toy trains

Tiffany

Hello bob2.............

My idea of a high quality gear box for large 2 rail and 3 rail O scale brass locomotives would have 2 piece cast machined brass gear box housings and bottom retainer plate, main driver axle to have heat treated bronze gear, soft brass or nylon idler gear (the replacement or wearing out gear piece) and polished steel worm.   The gear driver axle and worm shaft and idler gear axle to have sealed lubed ball bearings.   Have a few spare idler replacement gears in hand as a wearing out gear piece for easy self do at home replacements.   Using the red & tacky #2 for grease in this gear box will last loooooong time (maybe couple of million scale miles) along with largest Pittman ball bearing motor and machined brass driveshaft coupling and steel shaft.  This may be "overkill" but will be worth every penny. 

 

If i had the money required for tooling and machining, I WOULD do it in heartbeat and make it for everyone who needs a replacement gearboxes.  I would pay 350 dollars for one if someone can make one for me as this would be a one time investment.  I would use it in my brass 2-10-4.  I don't know if the sunset 3rd rail brass locomotives uses traction tires or not as this would me my first one.  I have seen pictures of the gears boxes in the brass locomotives and i wasn't too impressed.  If you know someone that can make one, LET ME KNOW as i do have some idea of measurements for the gearboxes. 

 

the woman who loves toy trains

Tiffany