I am NEVER buying or pre-ordering again!

I don't understand people who say that... especially when there are dealers with whom you can pre-order w/o paying a deposit... & can cancel w/o any "penalty."  It is a non-issue as far as I am concerend.

My last pre-order was the recent VL Challenger.  It was fixed and I'm happy with it.....but that will be my last pre-order, unless it's from Third Rail.

I've always hated BTO.  My only other preorder was the first Legacy NKP 765 with Whistle Steam....that I was able to cancel after seeing it on Eric's Trains.

I don't buy any locomotive now....without first seeing it and hearing it....if it comes in a purple or orange box.

@RadioRon posted:

I don't understand people who say that... especially when there are dealers with whom you can pre-order w/o paying a deposit... & can cancel w/o any "penalty."  It is a non-issue as far as I am concerend.

Being promised X, shown X, and delivered Y is very disappointing and frustrating....especially when it comes with a four figure price tag.

Hobbies are supposed to bring enjoyment.....not disappointment.  Life does enough of the latter on its own.

I had been wanting Lionel to make a Legacy J3a for YEARS.

They finally do, and I dumped my preorder after issues with previous trains I preordered (Legacy H10) and was disappointed. Good thing as there are issues with that new J3a, i.e. 5 chuffs, silver smokebox etc.

Add to that "I" , have never been able to get through to Lionels CS since the departure of MR.

I'm now focused on older NIB items, and for less than 50%of the cost of the new version, you can't go wrong.

The never ending "issues" with new big ticket items, as well as the easy stuff like rolling stock, has put me through the Betty Ford of model trains in a hurry.

The excitement over the new catalogs has dwindled to the point I don't really even look at it anymore.

No regrets.

@Gpritch posted:

So how many of you have said this?  I see comments like this over and over again in the posting.

How many of you have followed through and stuck to your rant?  I suspect this is a fleeting thought that passes quickly.  To say" I will never buy a brand L or M (or whatever) product", or " I will never preorder again" and then miss the Holy Grail item i always wanted doesn't seem realistic.

For me, I may have limited purchases, but with a small market that is consolidating further, there is little choice other than to continue to make such purchases.

What do you think?  Have you followed through on your threat?  For how how long?  Do you regret it?

I've not pre-ordered anything for at least 15 years now. No, I don't regret it one bit.

Two thumbs up to Rick O's post.

I thought I was the only person who stopped looking at the new catalogs.  Apparently not.

RickO: Regarding your "I've never been able able to get through" comment, there's 'getting through' (as in you might communicate with someone), but then there's another 'getting through'.   🤔

I took a break from buying any new trains for a couple of years and during that time I ignored Lionel's catalogs. Now that I have come back and have jumped into Legacy I am discovering locomotives I would like to have that were cataloged just a couple of years ago but are now no longer available. I missed out on the Providence and Worcester SD70 because I waited.  I just grabbed the very last Quebec North Shore and Labrador Dash-9 from TrainWorld. My take away from the experience is: pre-order it if you like it.

@Madockawando posted:

I took a break from buying any new trains for a couple of years and during that time I ignored Lionel's catalogs. Now that I have come back and have jumped into Legacy I am discovering locomotives I would like to have that were cataloged just a couple of years ago but are now no longer available. I missed out on the Providence and Worcester SD70 because I waited.  I just grabbed the very last Quebec North Shore and Labrador Dash-9 from TrainWorld. My take away from the experience is: pre-order it if you like it.

That happens from time to time when modeling or collecting more obscure lines....especially when the model hasn't been issued before....whether it be in Conventional Control, TMCC, or Legacy.

Even people who model or collect the larger lines are drawn to the smaller railroads....that they could otherwise care less about....just for the variety/uniqueness of the item.

Well stated RICKO!!!   Even if you look at the older TMCC stuff with Odyssey, change boards to ERR, put chuff generator, you got a better sounding engine for a fraction of the price.  

I now have found my self wanting to collect small and obscure road names that service New England, Quebec, Ontario and the Maritime Provinces.

The Quebec North Shore and Labrador Dash-9 fits that. I missed out on the Lionel Providence and Worcester, I got the Central Maine and I am looking for the Central Vermont and the Central Maine and Quebec Railway (which Lionel has not made yet)

Oh, I look at the Lionel catalogs - pretty pictures.

Then I see pricing on tank cars for $75, reefers for $80, boxcars for $85 and gondolas for $50 I'm talking about these cars based on "traditional" molds and sizes.

One can easily get brand new, in boxes, LTI equivalents on the secondary markets for 1/4 to 1/3 of these prices. MPC boxed equivalents for 1/4 of these prices and excellent used Post war for 1/3 - 1/2 of these prices.

Ya know what, wait a year or two and you will be able to get the currently catalog cars in these categories with similar price breaks.

Forget engines priced up to $2,000. Give me Post War anytime. Repairable, beautiful, smoke rings, magna-traction, air whistles and bicycle horns and I'm a happy camper, feeling like a kid from the 1950's again.

When I first returned to the hobby, I pre-ordered a lot of items -- only to be disappointed with some upon delivery.  With time I've moved away from current production items to those no longer produced, i.e., pre-war along with some MPC as well as other items I took a pass on back in the 90's.  There are plenty of those out there and finding one in the "right" condition is part of the "thrill of the hunt" I suppose.  If you really want it, go for it!  (Then again, you can wait a few years and pick it up once depreciation has taken it's toll )

@laz1957 posted:

Well stated RICKO!!!   Even if you look at the older TMCC stuff with Odyssey, change boards to ERR, put chuff generator, you got a better sounding engine for a fraction of the price.  

Its those whistles George, the whistles!!

@Berkshire President posted:

Two thumbs up to Rick O's post.

I thought I was the only person who stopped looking at the new catalogs.  Apparently not.

I enjoy looking at Lionel’s catalogs (and download them to a computer for reference) to see what may be produced and to see if “wishlist” or “leaked” items are actually in the catalog.  However, purchasing anything solely on the description provided in the catalog won’t ever happen again.  This includes any custom run items since the art work provided by Lionel cannot be trusted to reflect the actual production item.

I have to preorder, or I don't get.

I never preordered . 😕...........but I do look at my past catalog issues from Mike W. occasionally.........mostly with a feeling of melancholy. 😑.............nice looking stuff though.

@Lionelski posted:

Oh, I look at the Lionel catalogs - pretty pictures.

Then I see pricing on tank cars for $75, reefers for $80, boxcars for $85 and gondolas for $50 I'm talking about these cars based on "traditional" molds and sizes.

One can easily get brand new, in boxes, LTI equivalents on the secondary markets for 1/4 to 1/3 of these prices. MPC boxed equivalents for 1/4 of these prices and excellent used Post war for 1/3 - 1/2 of these prices.

Ya know what, wait a year or two and you will be able to get the currently catalog cars in these categories with similar price breaks.

Forget engines priced up to $2,000. Give me Post War anytime. Repairable, beautiful, smoke rings, magna-traction, air whistles and bicycle horns and I'm a happy camper, feeling like a kid from the 1950's again.

Well stated. 

I know I'm old (but younger than average in the train world), but I can't wrap my head around paying more for a toy than I spent for my first 4 real cars put together.  And I could fix them when they broke.

Totally agree with your points about waiting for items on the secondary market, and I'm leaning back into postwar too.

I still occasionally preorder unique items or for specific road names, but NEVER with a deposit.  There are plenty of reputable dealers who will take a preorder without money up front, so there's no need to wade into that swamp.

I have too much stuff or I'd preorder stuff, since the dealers I work with don't require deposits and respond to any problems, which have been, thankfully, few and far between.  I also try not to overreact to reports of lemons on the internet, because they may not and usually are not representative of my own experiences and those around me.  So I make no resolutions nor promises about my hobby, because it's a day to day thing .

I also prefer new to used, and am not interested in repairing or buffing up older models, and I like to have a warranty and exchange option, which does not exist with used. Different strokes for different folks.

99.999% of my pre-order is 3rd Rail.  I never have any real concerns as a result.  The only other 2 preorders I have purchased were the last run of MTH Via Rail Canada F40PHs and an MTH ATSF caboose with the correct paint scheme for my original paint scheme 3rd Rail FT ABBA set.  Both of those orders arrived fine with no issues.

I have sworn off anything with a motor for over a year.  I'm concentrating on scenery and rolling stock and am much less aggravated for it.

I had a terrible experience with a 3rd Rail pre-order once.  After I opened it up and ran it the engine was so excellent in regards to paint, detail and running characteristics, I realized I should have ordered more road numbers but is was too late.  I'll never get over it.

- Crank

I have never pre-ordered any train item in my entire train life.  Additionally, I made up my mind about 7 or 8 years ago to stop buying anything new on the market from any manufacturer.  I suffered through too many disappointments and out of box failures and became so disgusted I found myself losing interest in the hobby.   Best decision I ever made and my love for the hobby returned.   During the last 7 or 8 years or so my purchases have been limited to pre and post war items along with some early TMCC engines which I have found to be pretty much bullet proof.     However, last year I did break down and bought a Polar Express Lionchief  set to run for my Grandchildren at Christmas time.  Another mistake because as Yogi Berra once allegedly said it was Deja Vu all over again.  I guess my memory needed refreshing.     

75% of what we get from Lionel has something that is broken when received. We generally don’t preorder and we seldom order Lionel at all. But we do buy new trains and have six engines and a bunch of Virginian hoppers on order from Scott.

For us, Lionel has taken the fun out of buying their products and we own a tremendous amount of Lionel purchased over the last 50+ years. We would love to again be a happy Lionel customer.

Since I'm not buying locomotives (currently have my eye on all rolling stock except a couple MTH special release due out later this year), my biggest complaint is why do some major online dealers have some items and others don't have the same item. I would think most of the major online dealers would all carry the same items. And some will have the item and later when I check their website for updates, it's gone! And it's still not produced, but is still a to-be-produced item in the future. I have a spreadsheet set up so when something is announced it goes on the spreadsheet with an expected availability date. As that date gets closer, I keep checking their websites.

Would be nice if Lionel had a CURRENT shipping schedule! Yes, they do post one, but it's seriously out of date (American Freedom Train passenger cars - Pack 1 and 2 were supposed to be delivered in Dec 2020). Yes, I know due to the pandemic some things have slipped their availability date, but come on Lionel - that's going on 4 months without an update! At least MTH provides a list of "due in" items and also what they are currently or about to ship to dealers. It's update typically twice a month.

I see postings all the time on the WTB section from members looking for engines they did not order.  So, as was pointed out earlier, if you want it, order it.

i failed to order the Lionel H10 and Coal Set as a pre-order.  That cost me $450 overall.

I waffled back and forth on pre-ordering the Lionel C&O sd 40s and since I missed the early buy discount I waited and was able to see pictures of the engines  posted on here prior to purchasing,  I had to act fast as they sold out quick ( I had to send one back for replacement for bad handrail but all was settled nicely by dealer).   I also procrastinated about purchasing the Maine Central gp 9s but decided not to get after seeing how "yellow" they were (I like the orangey harvest gold).  So d/t the color thing I am afraid to pre-order locomotives.  I also am seeing a real risk of not getting what you want as they sell so fast.  Tough situation...

Wait and see for me. You can still find what you want after initial reports on the products are made public.

I would never say never but it would take something never made before that fits my roster before would pre order. I have two pre orders now, one is over 5 years old. I see little new theses days.

edit, make that three pre orders but one, a Kohs caboose, is over ten years old. I think I can write that one off.

Pete

@GG1 4877 posted:

99.999% of my pre-order is 3rd Rail.  I never have any real concerns as a result.  The only other 2 preorders I have purchased were <snip>

Jonathan, so if those 2 pre-orders represent 0.001% of all of your pre-orders, then you must have made 199,998 pre-orders for 3rd Rail stuff (199,998/200,000=99.999%).

Scott must be REALLY happy with you!  Good thing today is April 1st. 

I would be interested in the MEC Geeps IF they were made with the correct color.  Why Big L can't get it right is beyond me.  Hard pass.

@Bob posted:

Jonathan, so if those 2 pre-orders represent 0.001% of all of your pre-orders, then you must have made 199,998 pre-orders for 3rd Rail stuff (199,998/200,000=99.999%).

Scott must be REALLY happy with you!  Good thing today is April 1st. 

My math is a little off isn't it?  Would you believe that includes preorders yet to be placed at some time in the future?

You made me do them math though and it is actually close to 97%.

Year 4 without preordering from Lionel...

The only thing in terms of trains I've ever pre-ordered so far are the upcoming scale Amfleets and one Viewliner from GGD. I know I'm taking quite a shot with this, but it seems like it's not exactly a shot in the dark when it comes to stuff from Scott. After researching many of his past products and reading up on the forums how good his customer service is, I figured why not pre-order what is one of my favorite passenger cars of all time. I genuinely thought it was worth the risk, especially since his stuff is already very difficult to come by. I collect Williams' Amfleet cars, and I'd like to get the E. Welz versions at some point, but to this day no one else has ever made truly scale-length Amfleet cars in 3-rail. We'll see what Atlas does with the recently acquired tooling, but overall I cannot wait for the GGD Amfleet cars and the Viewliner too.

I think pre-ordering isn't a bad thing at all, but like some of you guys mentioned above it can be a unnecessarily bigger gamble than it needs to be. I generally don't pre-order anything myself, but if I do then my rule is to not pre-order things until I see them in-hand (including on the internet), or if I have a previous version of the product and I already know what it's like in terms of quality. Anything that's new for the first time, like new tooling or new electronics, I will never pre-order because I know there is the potential for things to go south really quickly, and I'd rather have the bugs/issues worked out earlier on before I get a product like that. And again, pre-ordering anything from Scott is a huge exception, because of how rare his stuff is and because according to other people on the forums, he has great customer service. If it were Lionel, MTH, Atlas, etc., then more than likely I won't pre-order anything, until I hear how the item is from other people.

Is it possible this thread was an April Fools Joke....just to get us riled up?

I've never been one to purchase something sight unseen,..   I might have a few regrets on that policy but I expect less than actually purchasing stuff based on a drawing.   Example is the Southern E8 set, didn't pre-order and everywhere says it's sold out, not available, nope, no chance.    Which is ok, might find one later at a show or shop,..    which I can look at, hold, test run, etc,...        Yesterday I stopped at a hobby shop and whoa,...   there it was,..

And that other part,  I've been running at a statistical 20% defect rate on new Lionel locomotives,..    The online dealers have made good,  immediate replacements so all is good.

I've really only had pre-order problems with one company in particular.
If they announce a model I'm interested in, I order it.
If it arrives broken or painted in hideously wrong colors, I send it back.
As long as the dealer you buy from has a reasonable return policy, you really can't lose.

Definitely relevant topic, there is one company who comes to mind, but I will not say.

I preordered this:

I got this:

The picture does not capture how bad the color is, it’s literally neon red.

The vendor who I will also not mention gave me some hassle when I exchanged it.

I've only ever pre-ordered one (L or M) product. I made the pre-order through a dealer (as some suggest), and many months before it arrived, I asked the dealer if I could cancel my order and was told that I would be "hosing him" which seems odd based on the volume they seem to move. Prior to that I had purchased existing inventory from that dealer and was generally happy. But as has been stated, nothing but sour thoughts and feeling every time I think of that specific pre-order experience.

It should be noted that I have pre-ordered many 3rd rail products and those were always positive experiences.