Insulators for MTH 3 Rail wheels?

I can't imagine trying to insulate the three-rail wheels in quantity, I'd just bite the bullet and buy the wheelsets.

I don't know what wheelsets you have, but 3/16 seems way larger than the axles I have.

This would be a long path, but if you have a drill press you could make a jig to hold the wheel squarely to the drill, and mount the jig to the press table.  You could drill out the wheel and fill the hole with epoxy which is an insulator.  You could then drill out the epoxy to the correct size.  You would have to study what epoxy to use and there are additives that make it stronger so that the new hole does not enlarge over time.  Never tried this, just a thought the came into my head when I saw your post.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I can't imagine trying to insulate the three-rail wheels in quantity, I'd just bite the bullet and buy the wheelsets.

I don't know what wheelsets you have, but 3/16 seems way larger than the axles I have. the wheel set shown below is from and engine but the thickness is the same size.

John, the axle is 0.186, the hole in the wheel is 0.1890 and the subway wheels are 0.2200 thick.

@ogaugenut posted:

This would be a long path, but if you have a drill press you could make a jig to hold the wheel squarely to the drill, and mount the jig to the press table.  You could drill out the wheel and fill the hole with epoxy which is an insulator.  You could then drill out the epoxy to the correct size.  You would have to study what epoxy to use and there are additives that make it stronger so that the new hole does not enlarge over time.  Never tried this, just a thought the came into my head when I saw your post.

I pretty much have a machine shop in my home garage.

Well, for the small price of the wheelsets, I can't imagine this being cost effective.  If you have unlimited time, I suppose it makes sense...

One option that might work is consider 3D printing the insulator inserts, then you could get a quantity of them without hand making each one.

I already have too many projects and too little time, so for something like this I bite the bullet and buy the wheelsets.

Also think about the look of these huge flanges. It's hard to look at, I'd say. You should really replace these axles, it will look so much cooler!

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Well, for the small price of the wheelsets, I can't imagine this being cost effective.  If you have unlimited time, I suppose it makes sense.

John if you remember from other conversations we had in the past, we’re talking about three hundred fifty cars. Also, with a 3/16 axle that would be a problem too. MTH used engine tricks on all the subways. Time is actually something I have a lot of.  With my set up, how long could it take to pull the wheels etc like an assembly line.

@MCD4x4 posted:

John if you remember from other conversations we had in the past, we’re talking about three hundred fifty cars. Also, with a 3/16 axle that would be a problem too. MTH used engine tricks on all the subways. Time is actually something I have a lot of.  With my set up, how long could it take to pull the wheels etc like an assembly line.

I was thinking of freight cars, subway cars do have larger axles.

I think I'd do a few and see if it actually works out.   BTW, how will you light the cars?

OK, I have to ask:

  Why are you doing this ?   You use outside third rail for power pickup [ based on some of your past posts ] don't you ?  Are you using conventional, modified conventional, DCS, or some other means of control ?  Perhaps you've explained this in the past, but a cursory search of your posts doesn't seem to show it.  Are your turnouts also fully 2R -- that is, the frog is isolated or switched ?

Obviously, you don't need to explain the 'why'.

SZ

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I was thinking of freight cars, subway cars do have larger axles.

BTW, how will you light the cars?

The cars are currently lit but as I do each car I'll change the ceiling lighting and head/tail lights over to LEDs. I can see spending a half hour on each car. I'm in a very unique position for time. From my experience up at the NJHiRailers many years ago,  the draw from ten six car subways in a yard with there lights on will trip the transformer. I could be wrong about the number ten but, the glass bulbs are a killer. In what was designated the Subway yard at the time, we ended up having to put switches for power on each track because of the draw from the glass bulbs. Some engines had 8 ceiling lights while trailer cars had 5 or 6.

@Steinzeit posted:

OK, I have to ask:

  Why are you doing this ?

the short answer is, I absolutely hate that middle rail.

@MCD4x4 posted:

The cars are currently lit but as I do each car I'll change the ceiling lighting and head/tail lights over to LEDs. I can see spending a half hour on each car. I'm in a very unique position for time. From my experience up at the NJHiRailers many years ago,  the draw from ten six car subways in a yard with there lights on will trip the transformer. I could be wrong about the number ten but, the glass bulbs are a killer. In what was designated the Subway yard at the time, we ended up having to put switches for power on each track because of the draw from the glass bulbs. Some engines had 8 ceiling lights while trailer cars had 5 or 6.

No doubt the incandescent bulbs do suck power, I've converted a ton of passenger cars to LED lighting.  I even make products to do the job!

Passenger Car LED Lighting Kit

LED Lighting Regulator

However, my question really was, where is the power coming from if you insulate one wheel on all the wheelsets?

I would think insulated wipers behind the insulated wheel like these:

@PRRMP54 posted:

I would think insulated wipers behind the insulated wheel like these:

When you say wipers, you mean insulators?  That's what I'm searching for, the question is, are they out there, or do I have to have them made in china

@PRRMP54 posted:

I would think insulated wipers behind the insulated wheel like these:

Obviously, that's how most 2-rail stuff gets power from the insulated wheels.  However, doing that on over 300 cars is quite an undertaking!   Now we're talking about custom insulators for the wheels and then adding wipers!  It's getting pretty complicated!

I have an alternate plan for the wipers.  How about tethering the cars with a one-wire tether to draw power from the powered unit?  That's MUCH easier to do.

@MCD4x4 posted:

When you say wipers, you mean insulators?  That's what I'm searching for, the question is, are they out there, or do I have to have them made in china

No, I meant brass(?) wipers riding on the backside of the wheel  for power pickup like GRJ stated above. His idea of a lighting bus with a jumper betwen the cars sounds much simpler to me. No insulators required, all eight wheels would be the "ground return".

But, upon reading your OP, I realize that you want the center rail to be gone so one side would have to be insulated.

Another thought just (as I am typing) would be to replace the axle with a non-conducting one. And on the backside of the wheels on one side a spacer to keep it from contacting the truck block.

As far as the large flange that Sarah mentioned, you did state that you have machine tools; presumably including a lathe. Viola! Problem solved. BTW, I'll be stopping by to get all of my subway fleet turned down!

@PRRMP54 posted:

Another thought just (as I am typing) would be to replace the axle with a non-conducting one. And on the backside of the wheels on one side a spacer to keep it from contacting the truck block.

Since the axle extends into the truck and is the load bearing surface, most non-conducting materials would probably not last long.

@PRRMP54 posted:

No, I meant brass(?) wipers riding on the backside of the wheel  for power pickup like GRJ stated above. His idea of a lighting bus with a jumper between the cars sounds much simpler to me. No insulators required, all eight wheels would be the "ground return".

But, upon reading your OP, I realize that you want the center rail to be gone so one side would have to be insulated.

As far as the large flange that Sarah mentioned, you did state that you have machine tools; presumably including a lathe. Viola! Problem solved. BTW, I'll be stopping by to get all of my subway fleet turned down!

oh I gotcha, brain fart there.

I'll be keeping the large flange I'm using GarGraves high rail. 

Sell the three rail wheels and buy 2 rail wheels.

ECI

You're in for some work. My experience with insulated wheels is that the insulated wheel has the center bored out and a plastic bushing inserted with a tight hole for the axle. Drilling out the wheels and inserting bushings would represent a lot of work since you're talking about four axles/car minimum (the Schnabel I bought was two-railed with fourteen axles replaced). You also have to re-gauge them consistently (a jig would be a good idea).

Disassembling the newer MTH trucks (tab instead of "thumbtack") is an interesting experience, but it's doable.

@AGHRMatt posted:

...snip...  (the Schnabel I bought was two-railed with fourteen axles replaced).  ...snip...

Whoever two-railed the Westinghouse Schnabel car that I have used MTH two-rail wheelsets so that had to be a very simple conversion.

@PRRMP54 posted:

Whoever two-railed the Westinghouse Schnabel car that I have used MTH two-rail wheelsets so that had to be a very simple conversion.

The MTH Subways have much thicker ales, 3/16

@AGHRMatt posted:

You're in for some work. My experience with insulated wheels is that the insulated wheel has the center bored out and a plastic bushing inserted with a tight hole for the axle. Drilling out the wheels and inserting bushings would represent a lot of work since you're talking about four axles/car minimum (the Schnabel I bought was two-railed with fourteen axles replaced). You also have to re-gauge them consistently (a jig would be a good idea).

Disassembling the newer MTH trucks (tab instead of "thumbtack") is an interesting experience, but it's doable.

I've done a few but I had to machine the bushing, I'm working on finding another way

@EastCoastIron posted:

Sell the three rail wheels and buy 2 rail wheels.

ECI

it's not that easy, the axle are a different thickness

The problem is, you have to totally insulate a wheel, the only way that's happening is having an insulator on the axle into the wheel.  For hundreds of wheels, that sounds like a huge task!

I'm seeing something like some Delrin bushings with a lip to the inside of the wheel.  Drill out the wheel hub and press the bushings in, then the axle into the bushing.  I don't see any other practical way to rework the wheelsets.

@MCD4x4 posted:

it's not that easy, the axle are a different thickness

I mean wheels mounted on axles.

ECI

@EastCoastIron posted:

I mean wheels mounted on axles.

ECI

It's finding the insulator that's becoming the task here. All the available insulators and shoulder washer are the wrong size. For some reason MTH used engine trucks on their subways.  Buying two wheel axles as you suggest in not an option because of the axle thickness that was used. Also, their 350 cars to do, the cost of changing all those wheel sets as apposed to using four .04 cent insulators is a big difference.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

The problem is, you have to totally insulate a wheel, the only way that's happening is having an insulator on the axle into the wheel.  For hundreds of wheels, that sounds like a huge task!

I'm seeing something like some Delrin bushings with a lip to the inside of the wheel.  Drill out the wheel hub and press the bushings in, then the axle into the bushing.  I don't see any other practical way to rework the wheelsets.

Yes sir, that's exactly the way I do it but, I also use a Horizontal standard collet holding fixture to hold the wheel, it literally takes a milla-second to swap wheels. I'll do  video and post it. I picked up a few 3/8 Delrin course thread bolts, I drilled and tapped ( one motion) a few wheels. Tonight I'll drill and press a few axles in using the milling machine and see what kind of fit I get. After this, I'll put an endmill bit in the mill and come down leaving about fifty thousandths of the bolt head as the shoulder between the truck and the wheel. Again, using the air collet chuck takes the time out of the job. Its actually an impressive operation. The tightest fit I can get,  I'll test on a heavy engine and see what happens by setting the DCS ACC to 25 and the DEC to a high number so when you hit the direction button it comes to a dead stop. I'm going to machine a block of aluminum to create a fixture to hold the truck at a perfect stable 90 degrees in the arbor press for putting the wheel back on. 

@gunrunnerjohn

Here’s a video I took Monday night setting up the fixture using a wheel and a 0.189 dill bit to line things up.

I'm glad I'm not trying to do this, I don't have a basement full of machine tools.

I still dont get it   You hate the middle rail but still like the 1 foot high outer rail and the giant flanges

@bluelinec4 posted:

I still dont get it   You hate the middle rail but still like the 1 foot high outer rail and the giant flanges

You got it Ben! Sell off the high rail track and 3 rail wheels and buy 2 rail track and wheel sets....or EVERY time you get something new you will have to mess with it.

ECI

@EastCoastIron posted:

You got it Ben! Sell off the high rail track and 3 rail wheels and buy 2 rail track and wheel sets....or EVERY time you get something new you will have to mess with it.

ECI

sell off what, 1400 over sized axle wheel sets? to what market, can you provide a link to the group where I can do that please? Than I'll go a head and buy 1400 wheel sets at what was that cost again, and where might I find 2R wheel sets with a 3/16 axle please? That will balance out how? Instead of criticizing, perhaps supply some solutions.

@bluelinec4 posted:

I still dont get it   You hate the middle rail but still like the 1 foot high outer rail and the giant flanges

YES

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I'm glad I'm not trying to do this, I don't have a basement full of machine tools.

lol, the machines are the key

@MCD4x4 posted:

YES

I got a great idea   Just make believe the middle rail isnt there   Alot less trouble and your stuff will work better

@bluelinec4 posted:

work better

How?

@MCD4x4 posted:

How?

Switches, connectivity , Tracking  etc etc etc 

@bluelinec4 posted:

Switches, connectivity , Tracking  etc etc etc

I’ve run the two engines I did last year for many hours in DCS  operation and have had zero problems, seems fine to me 🤷‍♂️