Is it feasible to mill LIONEL aluminum passenger car shells?

The process to make them blemish free would be to mill the areas you want removed danger close, then block sand the last remaining bit, then high polish to make all uniform. Then, you’d prep the slick aluminum to hold your paint as if they were new, extruded aluminum. Feasible, yes, but inexpensive, no,….you’re lucky you had a club member willing to do this for you,….the set up time alone would price the job in the stratosphere…..

Pat

Agreed, it would be expensive. Holding it flat and strong enough to mill a constant depth and not chatter is the primary problem.   The fixture and setup is 90% of the work.   Just holding it down with clamps is probably what they did before based on the scars you mentioned.     Cutter and cutting parameters determine finish.   A cutter with a "diamond like" coating with enough RPM could make a mirror finish.   

My current experience shows getting a shop to do something simple is expensive.   I wanted to router cut 4 sheets of 4 x 8 plywood.  I had the pattern.   I was quoted $600-$1800 if I supplied the plywood.   Less than 1 hour on the machine.    That is one reason why I invested in a 3D printer.  Maybe a tabletop milling machine next. 

@VHubbard posted:

Agreed, it would be expensive. Holding it flat and strong enough to mill a constant depth and not chatter is the primary problem.   The fixture and setup is 90% of the work.   Just holding it down with clamps is probably what they did before based on the scars you mentioned.     Cutter and cutting parameters determine finish.   A cutter with a "diamond like" coating with enough RPM could make a mirror finish.   

My current experience shows getting a shop to do something simple is expensive.   I wanted to router cut 4 sheets of 4 x 8 plywood.  I had the pattern.   I was quoted $600-$1800 if I supplied the plywood.   Less than 1 hour on the machine.    That is one reason why I invested in a 3D printer.  Maybe a tabletop milling machine next.

Yeah, I’d agree to that for Carl, or anybody else looking to do odd machining jobs at home…..many small desk top machines available that would be fine for model work,…some under 200 dollars,…..master the technique on scrap, then do your model work, and a job like Carl is requesting would more than pay for itself on the first job…..if you could find a Sherline used, at a decent price, that’s the way to go for a small machine …

Pat

OK, somebody has to ask: is it really worth the trouble, possible damage, and/or the expense? I see the "ridges", but, unless the cars are dead-on matches for the NP or GN cars in all other aspects (windows, roof, skirting, doors, etc), you are not going to have an exact match, anyway. And they are 15" long. I like 15" cars, but most modern cars would scale out longer.

Wouldn't nice paint and lettering jobs serve well enough?

@D500 posted:

OK, somebody has to ask: is it really worth the trouble, possible damage, and/or the expense?

Was it worth asking the question in the first place: is it feasible? Certainly.

Is it worth the trouble or possible damage? What trouble? Repairing minor scarring; yes.

Worth the expense? Not at $200 for my purposes.

The donor cars for the GN Empire Builder project are LIONEL TCA cars that are smooth-sided with two channels for silver stripes (instead of the ridges in the UP example):

Two of the UP cars have been milled and I wanted a third since that was the normal consist for the EB. And I have more projects and an inventory of the TCA cars to use as donors, so milling the UP models would be desirable. But, not at the price point mentioned above.

Thanks to @harmonyards and @VHubbard for the information and advice. I'm sure unmilled UP offset domes will work fine for my purposes.

NOTE: The photo shown was taken by the writer.

If these were mine I would remove the material with micro tools. Micro Mark offers miniature sanding tools including 1/4” wide sanding blocks, belt sanders, and small rotating tools. A little tedious but small money.

FWIW I have a Bridgeport Mill and would still do these by hand.

Pete

I’m sorry you lost your resource for this kind of job Carl, ….the fella that did them for you must’ve done it as a labor of love…..obviously, he didn’t do a whole lot of set up time, as you wound up with machining marks below the surface you intended,…..the workpiece & the machine have to be set perfectly before you even flip a switch, ….Once the piece is in the fixture, the machine is set to a specific depth, and you’d only run the axis at that point,……The set up time is 99% of the time on a job like that, …the actual operation would only take a moment …..Aluminum sheet, ( which is what those cars are made of) can be a funny creature in a mill. If there’s any waves in the shell, the end mill will find them….that’s another reason set up would be so, so, crucial,…a dry run with a dial indicator down the rib you want removed would be my first action once I’ve fixtured the work piece ….That would find any waviness in the shell you & I couldn’t see…….just figured I’d share how it would really be done, not just toss it in a vise and lower the head and hope for the best!….😉

Pat  

@harmonyards posted:

just figured I’d share how it would really be done, not just toss it in a vise and lower the head and hope for the best!….😉

No fair Pat, you have been doing this stuff all your life!

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

No fair Pat, you have been doing this stuff all your life!

Yep, but on the flip side, you start telling me about sign wave, & I’m looking for a sign waving!….it’s all part of stay in your lane!!….no!?..🤣🤣🤣

Pat

Thanks @Norton. Checked out M-M website and not sure of what exactly to buy; have Dremel tools and a good assortment of sanding drums and grinding attachments.

I'd welcome some elaboration, Pete. I'm definitely game to try on a donor shell.

These would be the safest to use. Power tools are harder to control. Start with a coarse grit moving to finer and finer grits to 800-1000. That aluminum is fairly soft and should cut reasonable fast.

Pete

@harmonyards posted:

Yep, but on the flip side, you start telling me about sign wave, & I’m looking for a sign waving!….it’s all part of stay in your lane!!….no!?..🤣🤣🤣

Pat

Now that's funny !

@Pingman posted:

Among the limited number of available 15" aluminum passenger car shells with offset domes, the LIONEL UP 6-19121 is the most available for repainting to simulate NP's North Coast Limited; GN's Empire Builder; and, other consists.

The UP car is advertised as smooth-sided but it is not; it has 4 extrusion ridges for the red stripes as shown in this photo:

A former club member had a business with a machine shop, but that resource is no longer available to me as he's sold the business. And the post-milling surfaces had some scars that required minor body filler work to eliminate.

Is this scarring typical of milling aluminum? Is there someone available who can do this for  me? I have 6 cars I'd like to get done.

Thanks for any advice and suggestions.

Note: the photo shown was taken by the writer of this post.

I have to agree with Pat, as someone who is worked with a milling machine and lathe. The set up time and correct, set up is where all the money lands. You’re talking about a five minute job with hours of set up.

I would like to point something out. In real railroading nothing is standard passenger cars get repaired passenger cars get purchased from other locations repaints are put              

into service and away they go, it goes for paint color as well. No car or locomotive is painted in the same shop. Each shop mixes the color they need. Different lot numbers of paint all of this changes what the final product looks like, in railroading it’s about return to service. Cosmetics are important but when there’s money involved money wins out.

@ThatGuy posted:

I have to agree with Pat, as someone who is worked with a milling machine and lathe. The set up time and correct, set up is where all the money lands. You’re talking about a five minute job with hours of set up.

I would like to point something out. In real railroading nothing is standard passenger cars get repaired passenger cars get purchased from other locations repaints are put              

into service and away they go, it goes for paint color as well. No car or locomotive is painted in the same shop. Each shop mixes the color they need. Different lot numbers of paint all of this changes what the final product looks like, in railroading it’s about return to service. Cosmetics are important but when there’s money involved money wins out.

Agreed, …..I get a kick out of folks who want all perfect matching models, when in reality, close was a perfect match……the name of the game as you said, get it in service making money, and stop spending money on it…….

Pat

@ThatGuy posted:

I would like to point something out. In real railroading nothing is standard passenger cars get repaired passenger cars get purchased from other locations repaints are put  into service and away they go, it goes for paint color as well. No car or locomotive is painted in the same shop. Each shop mixes the color they need. Different lot numbers of paint all of this changes what the final product looks like, in railroading it’s about return to service. Cosmetics are important but when there’s money involved money wins out.

Agreed, …..I get a kick out of folks who want all perfect matching models, when in reality, close was a perfect match……the name of the game as you said, get it in service making money, and stop spending money on it…….

Pat

This may be true in many cases, but I've read in a number of sources that in the heyday of crack named passenger trains with the latest streamlined cars, many railroad presidents viewed these with pride as a representation of the eliteness and high standards of their railroads, and very important to public relations. They were heavily advertised and a point of pride with these railroads. The presidents demanded that these passenger trains be first class in every respect, including appearance. They would not tolerate a rag-tag appearance with mixed cars or mixed engines with all kinds of different shades of color.

Obviously due to changing economics affecting passenger trains as their era faded, with the rise of automobiles, freeways, advances in air travel, etc., things changed, including relaxation of the effort to maintain appearances of passenger trains, although on some lines, such as Southern, the effort to maintain first class passenger service persisted until the very end.

As do many, I have a number of books on famous streamliners, and the photos attest to the matching colors of the engines and of the cars of these trains. Pennsy Broadway Limited, NYC 20th Century Limited, Illinois Central City of New Orleans, SP Daylight trains, GN Empire Builder, NP North Coast Limited - just to name a few of many examples.

@breezinup posted:

This may be true in many cases, but I've read in a number of sources that in the heyday of crack named passenger trains with the latest streamlined cars, many railroad presidents viewed these with pride as a representation of the eliteness and high standards of their railroads, and very important to public relations. They were heavily advertised and a point of pride with these railroads. The presidents demanded that these passenger trains be first class in every respect, including appearance. They would not tolerate a rag-tag appearance with mixed cars or mixed engines with all kinds of different shades of color.

Obviously due to changing economics affecting passenger trains as their era faded, with the rise of automobiles, freeways, advances in air travel, etc., things changed, including relaxation of the effort to maintain appearances of passenger trains, although on some lines, such as Southern, the effort to maintain first class passenger service persisted until the very end.

As do many, I have a number of books on famous streamliners, and the photos attest to the matching colors of the engines and of the cars of these trains. Pennsy Broadway Limited, NYC 20th Century Limited, Illinois Central City of New Orleans, SP Daylight trains, GN Empire Builder, NP North Coast Limited - just to name a few of many examples.

Let’s tackle this, with a crack train aesthetics are important but it was very important on the inside. Paint colors varied all over any system. When a train needed equipment or had to roll it came down to get it done. Many photos of the time period are  taken with input from the RR. There are many photos of crack trains with paint miss match or peeling with dents and dings.

@breezinup posted:

This may be true in many cases, but I've read in a number of sources that in the heyday of crack named passenger trains with the latest streamlined cars, many railroad presidents viewed these with pride as a representation of the eliteness and high standards of their railroads, and very important to public relations. They were heavily advertised and a point of pride with these railroads. The presidents demanded that these passenger trains be first class in every respect, including appearance. They would not tolerate a rag-tag appearance with mixed cars or mixed engines with all kinds of different shades of color.

Obviously due to changing economics affecting passenger trains as their era faded, with the rise of automobiles, freeways, advances in air travel, etc., things changed, including relaxation of the effort to maintain appearances of passenger trains, although on some lines, such as Southern, the effort to maintain first class passenger service persisted until the very end.

As do many, I have a number of books on famous streamliners, and the photos attest to the matching colors of the engines and of the cars of these trains. Pennsy Broadway Limited, NYC 20th Century Limited, Illinois Central City of New Orleans, SP Daylight trains, GN Empire Builder, NP North Coast Limited - just to name a few of many examples.

That might’ve been true when the train set was inaugurated, and promotional films, brochures, etc, were made of a crack train…..but in the reality of it, as equipment had to be repaired, rebuilt, etc, certainly there wasn’t a dead on match of color,…..in the case of the Century, both Beech Grove & West Albany repaired the cars & the engines, they didn’t send someone back & forth to make sure they used paint from the same drum, ….each shop had a color selector, and depending on the material sprayed ( or even brushed on back then ) they’d contact whoever was the shop’s vendor at that time, and get the material needed, …..everyone’s opinion on what’s close enough varied, so the equipment didn’t always dead match, …..what fools everyone’s mind nowadays are the streams and streams of black & white photos that can’t differentiate these slight color variants …as a reference, ….just walk around the Pennsylvania Railroad museum today, and tell me every locomotive painted in there is dead on matched…..it’d had to all come out the same 10,000 gallon tank!…..

Pat

Sure, lots of exceptions, variations, etc. Not saying there weren't. That said (but I'm certainly no expert), there appear to be numerous examples, as shown in color photos of operational (not posed) streamlined passenger trains, where the cars and engines appear very closely matched in color. Would show them but for copyright issues. What "dead on" color match is, that's in the eye of the beholder, but at least it appears there was a concerted effort in many cases to make an attractive train with relatively close colors. No doubt things changed as time went on and rebuilds and repaints were made, how much depending on the railroad and the circumstances, and there was no shortage of those.

In any case, on my railroad the presidents are all very fussy, and insist on matching colors on their passenger trains! The Santa Fe doesn't spend much time on it, though.

@breezinup posted:

Sure, lots of exceptions, variations, etc. Not saying there weren't. That said (but I'm certainly no expert), there appear to be numerous examples, as shown in color photos of operational (not posed) streamlined passenger trains, where the cars and engines appear very closely matched in color. Would show them but for copyright issues. What "dead on" color match is, that's in the eye of the beholder, but at least it appears there was a concerted effort in many cases to make an attractive train with relatively close colors. No doubt things changed as time went on and rebuilds and repaints were made, how much depending on the railroad and the circumstances, and there was no shortage of those.

In any case, on my railroad the presidents are all very fussy, and insist on matching colors on their passenger trains! The Santa Fe doesn't spend much time on it, though.

Absolutely, it’s your railroad, your rules!….😉

Pat

Most of my passenger trains are carefully matched and we won't let the paint shop release them without assurances they'll all look pretty together!

@Norton posted:

These would be the safest to use. Power tools are harder to control. Start with a coarse grit moving to finer and finer grits to 800-1000. That aluminum is fairly soft and should cut reasonable fast.

Pete

Thanks, @Norton, I placed my order earlier today, Pete. And thanks for the tip to use tape.