Is it time for Wal Mart to start carrying Lionel and MTH trains?

Why on earth would Walmart sell Lionel and MTH et al trains?  Contrary to the myth, the total collective O gauge $ buying power could never get on Walmart's radar.  Goodness, between all the staples, i.e. groceries, clothes, housewares, pharmacy/medical, jewelry, pet supplies, lawn/garden, tools. paint,  automotive,  toys, crafts, where would you imagine the sales figures for Lionel odyssey and legacy would rank.  What percentage of the American population wants to shop for o gauge trains versus the previously mentioned staple items.

Add in the warranty repairs, out of the box failures, and well....

 There's a reason Walmart and others are successful.   Business mgmt without emotional attachment.

As mentioned before, the hobby shops fail for a reason and it's not poor mgmt.  Primarily a shrinking market. 

But hey we've been through this many times before.

It's like Walmart carrying "My Pillow" They are dying with them.

ed h posted:

In 2009 Walmart offered the O gauge set shown below (7-11175) which was exclusive to them. Also sold a bunch of misc Lionel branded items like shirts, key chains etc.

Lionel set 7-11175

 

 

Ed:

You beat me to it.  Here’s a few other photos from our local Wal-Mart’s Lionel display that I took back in 2009.  They had a couple of battery-operated G-gauge sets and the exclusive O gauge set you pictured.  Attached is a photo of the contents of the set and one of the top of the display.

 Selling trains in Wal-Mart and other mass merchandisers was former Lionel president Jerry Calabrese’s strategy because almost from the day he was appointed president, he repeatedly pointed out that Lionel "must expand its retail base beyond the traditional hobby stores in order to reach more first-time buyers and bring them into the hobby" (and those are his exact words from a 2007 LCCA Interview).

But I think that was the only year they had trains at our Wal-Mart and possibly others as well because as Bill T said in his post above, selling trains in Wal-Mart failed miserably!  Probably the only thing that sold well were the Lionel T-shirts they sold for $5.00 each that you still see many guys wearing at train shows.  One shirt was gray and red with artwork of a Hudson locomotive and the other shirt was black and had artwork of post-war engines across the front.

Selling Lionel trains at Target met the same fate.

And here’s a photo of a cardboard product display case that was used at our local Sears.  My wife brought that home with her a few days after Christmas about 6 or 7 years ago. 

The other Bill T

I think even Menards is giving up the O gauge starter set game.  My local Menards has put all of it's O gauge sets on clearance the last couple of years during Christmas and nothing is being shipped in to take their place. You can pick up the dreaded Dinosaur diesel set for $50 right now and the same RS3 set has been on the shelf for the last three years. They have recently stocked a lot more Bachman HO sets and really pushed their HO line of builds more.

IMO, model trains have considerably more competition now than they did 70 years ago and can't compete at the price point that the average Walmart toy sells for considering the age group.

Kohl’s sells some sets and some individual items online.  

Dan Padova posted:

We have no Menards anywhere in southeastern, Pa. that I know of.  I believe it is some sort of large box store, not unlike Home Depot and Lowes.  

So how did they get so involved in the "O" gauge market ?

Dan, the owner is an enthusiast in the hobby. 

Some may find this interesting reading:

https://www.milwaukeemag.com/bigmoney-john-menard/

I just came across it.   I don't think I'll be buying anymore of their products (I only have the York Hotel).

-Greg

Walmart is well aware of what constitutes mass-market toy sales. It’s also aware that anybody who wants trains can find them through numerous online dealers.

But it has tried in recent years. About 15 years ago, Walmart stocked Athearn HO train sets, years after the retailer had ended its regular practice of stocking sets for Christmas. The experiment lasted about one year. Obviously, it didn’t work for Walmart.

Keep in mind that the only reason Menards started stocking train sets in the past decade or so is because John Menard himself was a train nut.

The lack of train sets in the mass market isn’t an oversight. When sales dropped off as steeply as they did before the turn of the century, the hope of regularly finding sets in big-box retailers faded. 

Toy trains require a knowledgeable sales and technical staff that most big box stores cannot or will not provide. Secondly, train sales will not provide the margins that stores like WalMart require. So, I would say no.

Just a few years ago I saw a large Lionel display with LionChief starter sets (just below retail) at Macy's around Christmas - was very surprised. I did not have the $ at the time, but next week I went to pick up a set or two but they were already sold out of the train sets. They only had stuffed lions and ornaments left.

My guess is that starter sets are fairly expensive to sell at the large discount places (WalMart, etc.). During Christmas time at the higher end places, Lionel would sell because you have more affluent (IMO) people shopping.

Wal

Wal-Mart is the 800 pound gorilla in the room. They will dictate a price to them  that Lionel will not accept. I know,  I  worked for them twice. Wal-Mart doesn't care what the cost is to the manufacturer,  they are a discount house and their philosophy is to sell items in large quantities at a discount to the consumer.  Also if an item has little to no movement,  Wal-Mart is not afraid to reduce prices to clear it out. Old stock is worthless to them, they need the shelf space to sell something that moves.

Secondly Lionel has 2 major issues - supply and quality. It's not unusual for a hobbyist to wait a year or more for a train he bought to come to him. The general public and Wal-Mart executives don't have that kind of patience.  If you advertise something in the 2019 catalog,  it better be on the shelves in the store in 2019. 

Lionel's quality is the subject of many posts on this forum. It seems that since the electronics have gotten more sophisticated, the quality has suffered. Wal-Mart will not deal with the influx of returns from customers that think they bought "broken " toys . Lionel will have to demonstrate unparalleled quality to the buyers before they get them in to stores. 

Several years ago, Lionel sold trains on the QVC home shopping channel. What ever happened to that?

third rail posted:

Wal-Mart is the 800 pound gorilla in the room. . . .

Third Rail is 100% spot-on with his post.

I thing the fact that there are about 4000 stores around the US would be a real challenge for them to carry some of the higher end items.  Here in Chicago there are a handful of hobby stores and many many Walmart's I just don't see the market for $1500 engines.  That said I went to Amazon and took a look at what they had, and noted they do sell high end items.  So if the question is would their web presence carry it sure, why not.  

I don't see it happening though as the volumes are not there that would make it appealing for them, I think.  

John

Probably NOT a good fit.

Wal-Mart actually does thru there website, although it normally by another company that Wal-Mart has teamed up with. So don't look for any great reduced price

last year Costco had a Lionel trains set for sale battery  powered polar express if I remember correctly! 

bobotech posted:

Sadly kids and young adults just don't seem to have the interest in trains or pretty much any type of hobby style activity anymore.   I know my kids have never had an interest in them.  And i have interest in a lot of different hobbies such as trains, slot cars, r/c cars/trucks (gas and electric), sewing (i learned to sew due to my late wife having a bad stroke and I learned i enjoyed it), repairing all sorts of mechanical things like small engines and lawn mowers and so on. 

They just want electronics and phones and video games.  Now don't get me wrong, I love those things as well but most younger people just don't seem to care.    

With all that said, I sadly think that a Lionel display would be a dismal failure in a place like Walmart.

At True Value or Ace Hardware?  That might work.  Older gentleman tend to like to go to the hardware store for stuff you won't find at Walmart or Lowes or Home Depot and a Lionel display just might have enough draw to reel them in.

I just don't want to have Lionel suffer another failure.   It must be tough being in an unavoidably dying business model.   I wish to **** there was  a way of rejuvenating the hobby or any hobby. 

 

The younger people today are not hands on.  They are more into a service life style.   Those of us who grew up in the post war era, had the advantage of more user friendly technology.  It was much simpler to see how a thing worked.  

I they can't push a button or tell a smart speaker to do something, they don't want to be bothered doing it the "long way".  

Alan Mancus posted:

last year Costco had a Lionel trains set for sale battery  powered polar express if I remember correctly! 

Christmas Express this year - $19.99. I almost bought one just for the LionChief remote & control board.

There are three "O" sets on Costco online.

J. Motts posted:

Wild Mary must live some place that has a Super Wal Mart and a huge amount of clientele , here in the Arm Pit of Texas, I've been in 3 different Wal Mart's that are all located within about 7 to 10 miles of each other and all are super busy, have been thru the toy sections of each and have not seen one train set by Lionel at all.  They do have some "El Cheapo" plastic junk for sale but not Lionel stuff.  It would be nice to see some of it for sale this time of year or even any time of year.

We have 5 Walmart Super Centers here in the Baltimore area and all are super busy.  FYI those o gauge train sets  I listed were from the Walmart web site.  I'd be surprised if you'd ever find them in one of their stores.                 

Talked the other day to a "quality" bicycle shop that has also sold Lionel for decades -

was told "neither bikes or trains" are selling much this Christmas. 

 No they shouldn’t stock the trains. More small retailers need to embrace the model that our successful sponsors have adopted. Competitive prices online and in person. I won’t mention my favorites, because sponsors come and go here and I don’t want to play any favorites. It’s just the market. Methods have moved along on everyone. 

The items sold would have to be mass produced in large numbers to bring the price down per item. Then that item would have be actually purchased at this price, to make it worth their time. Toy Trains, model trains require a lot of parts to finally get them up to the point of being fully operational and interesting.

Will they bother to stock all of the extras needed to keep the locomotives functional and track together?

Andrew

WM does sell Lionel items.  On the Website.  Ship to store free.  Now, maybe a small advertising notice in Toys or Christmas items in the store that is possible.....

I have been in a few WM stores over the weekend.  The places looked as if Taz in tornado mode demolished the place.  Children tearing up products with parents or guardians just looking.  Or glued to their cells.  Would you want train sets put in the open like that??????

Greg Houser posted:

..................................

Some may find this interesting reading:

https://www.milwaukeemag.com/bigmoney-john-menard/

I just came across it.   I don't think I'll be buying anymore of their products (I only have the York Hotel).

-Greg

Wow.  I know that's just one article from 2007, but it seems to have enough quotes from actual people that it can't all be BS.

Certainly doesn't paint a rosy picture.

I've not bought into the Menards products, until now mostly because there are no stores here.  But I have to admit that article would now give me pause as well.  Most large corporations are not run by saints, but there are too many extreme examples of ridiculousness in that piece.

And to the original topic, no I don't see WalMart as a good fit for Lionel or MTH trains, most reasons already documented in other posts.

-Dave

Dominic Mazoch posted:

I have been in a few WM stores over the weekend.  The places looked as if Taz in tornado mode demolished the place.  Children tearing up products with parents or guardians just looking.  Or glued to their cells.  Would you want train sets put in the open like that??????

They could do it the way they do for the area with hunting equipment, a lot of that is behind a counter.  But since trains can't be considered dangerous(nor have any specific sales regulations), that would likely never happen.

-Dave

I don't think the market is there to support it, and as others have said that's why so many smaller stores have closed. 

That said, there is no reason there shouldn't be a market.  When is the last time you saw an advertisement on TV for Lionel, let alone the other brands? 

If the manufacturers (and we) want the hobby to survive, we have to do a better job of promoting the benefits of it.  There is a HUGE opportunity lost not promoting the STEM advantages of toy and model trains. It teaches users about electricity, math, art, and physics.  It also develops fine motor skills and other beneficial proficiencies: building/constructing things, planning, budgeting, project management, and the use of hand tools.  

People in this hobby are typically well-rounded individuals, and this is immensely more useful than what video games produce. 

I think a closer tie-in with the Arduino and "maker" movement would yield greater market appeal and provide competition to things like Lego Mindstorms/Robotics and help kids learn about computer languages and logic while they create little automated world with electric trains. 

Ham radio in some parts of the country are joining forces with the maket movement.  Brazos Valley Amateur Radio Club is joining a maker's event in March in Rosenberg TX.

Thete are synergies better hams and makers with us.  How many on this blog are hams.  My model railroad experience helped me get my ham license.

Back to WM:  How many employees there know their REGULAR PRODUCT, much less a high end train set.

Greg Houser posted:

Dan Padova posted:

We have no Menards anywhere in southeastern, Pa. that I know of.  I believe it is some sort of large box store, not unlike Home Depot and Lowes.  

So how did they get so involved in the "O" gauge market ?

Dan, the owner is an enthusiast in the hobby. 

Some may find this interesting reading:

https://www.milwaukeemag.com/bigmoney-john-menard/

I just came across it.   I don't think I'll be buying anymore of their products (I only have the York Hotel).

-Greg

Greg,

That is a old story and to me it means nothing. Believe me I have worked for worse. Nobody who owns a company wants a union or somebody who thinks they know better. 

It is his company and he will run it as he sees fit, right or wrong. I will buy from Menards because they import a nice product, at a decent price.

Dave

I’d never buy an O Gauge train at that place.

Dave45681 posted:

... But since trains can't be considered dangerous(nor have any specific sales regulations), that would likely never happen.

You actually would need to produce ID to buy a Lionel set at WalMart as with spray paint & lithium grease.

They won't sell to under 14.

From what I have heard Walmart chisels down all manufacturers (at this point mostly importers) so that they buy below that of other retailers. In some cases the manufacturers respond with a cheapened product that is inferior to that on the market. Home Depot operates the same way and much of their inventory is only paid for AFTER it sells. My neighbor was pricing a John Deer garden tractor and at Home Depot they were $1199.  At the local John Deer dealer a similar model was $1400. Upon close examination the thickness of materials and the wide use of bushings instead of ball bearings was the way the Home Depot tractor was made. Walmart products are cheapened as well. Lionel has never been a price leader so they don't fit the big box stores way of operation..

I never bought a train from an actual LHS until the mid 2000's. Only when I wanted more expensive detailed engines do I start buying from LHS's.

I know where my first set came from. It was bought at Sokoal's Hardware in Lower Burrell. It was a true hardware store.

When I started to grow my interest trains were bought at Boscovs Department Store limited selection but satisfied  the needs. Also another true hardware store had a better selection, Cambria Hardware in Johnstown, yes another full hardware store. This was through the 1990's into the mid 2000's.

None of these place had what I would call train knowledge people let alone repaired trains. Life was great but they sold out of their stock extremly fast. I even bought a few sets from yes, Wal-Mart.

The first LBS I bought from sold solely on product and price no train repairs. Great place and my number one store until I got sick. This was a period that all my hobbies took a step back.

Today I buy from the 7 LHS's that are within an hours drive and about 4 through the internet. Interesting again one is a true Hardware Store and the other is a combination food market, gas station.

So getting back to Wal-Mart I think it would be a great place to get the most people interested in trains. I doubt they would sell more than starter sets and rolling stock. They certainly do not need a repair department or even clerks experienced with trains. As much as I hate to say it parents are not buying $1,000 engines for their kids. However they are buying starter sets.

For me I will keep buying my expensive engines from LHS's that add that great personal service AND also repairs trains. The rest will be spread out to the places that have what I want in stock.

Yes, one must be aware that much of what big box stores sell as name-brand is actually cheapened from the product otherwise sold through more traditional venues. Model numbers are usually slightly different.

Dennis LaGrua posted:

 Walmart products are cheapened as well. Lionel has never been a price leader so they don't fit the big box stores way of operation..

This is nothing new.  Back in the day, HotPoint made appliances for Sears with less expensive materials than the HotPoint brands used.

Rusty

Renovo PRR posted:

I never bought a train from an actual LHS until the mid 2000's. Only when I wanted more expensive detailed engines do I start buying from LHS's.

I know where my first set came from. It was bought at Sokoal's Hardware in Lower Burrell. It was a true hardware store.

 

Small world. I bought stuff there as a kid.  I believe it was spelled Sokol but I could be wrong. That is how Sokol Camp is spelled. 

 Times have/will/always change. Kids are no longer interested in toy trains.

Just as many were probably no longer interested in playing marbles when Lionel came along.

The internet can take kids anywhere, a toy train just goes in circles. Do I agree with it, no, but this is how things are in 2020.

Come to think of it. Kids aren't interested in may "hands on toys" these days. Especially when younger moms and dads let them be babysitted by a device.

It could be I just don't remember. My schwinn bikes came from there too. I was pretty young and not even sure when they closed. Played some baseball at Sokol Camp.