Marx used to make sets for Sears with the Allstate label. "The Good Hands" railroad.
Wal Mart's return policy makes this a no go.
I worked with a museum in NYC that sold Lionel sets, and their return policy was 30 days.
Lionel sets would come back in early January - nothing wrong with most of them, but the tree was down at home, and there was no need for trains for another year.
Now apply that to Wal Mart. See a problem?
Rusty Traque posted:This is nothing new. Back in the day, HotPoint made appliances for Sears with less expensive materials than the HotPoint brands used.
HotPoint was the GE price-point brand and differed from the GE models mostly in features, but I don't think Sears ever sold Hotpoint and Coldspot at the same time.
Last year we were in our new Target store at Christmas time. They had stacks of Lionel (I guess G scale) train sets. We went back a few weeks after Christmas and most of them were still there at a big markdown. This year? No Lionel trains. Our Ace Hardware store carries a few HO Christmas sets but that's all the trains on the island. No hobby shops at all. Maybe this is a strange market for electric trains.
Don
From Walmart Land ...
Arkansas is home to Walmart, with HQ in Bentonville. The company works behind the scenes (and through the legislature) to keep Costo and Menards out of the state -- as "unwelcome big box competitors." I visited a Menards store in southern Illinois while traveling, and the "train section" in that store was semi-impressive. I bought some O-gauge stuff there and took it home.
Rumor Mill ... I've heard it said that Lionel is more interested in placing its products in TARGET stores than in Walmart, with the notion that Target is a "slightly higher class store" than Walmart. Maybe so. It's well known that Walmart fiercely presses manufacturers to cut production costs, so that's a turn-off to Lionel and others.
Meanwhile, the local HOBBY LOBBY store in Conway, AR has carried some Lionel starter sets during the holiday season, but those trains disappear in January -- with deep price cuts to move them off the shelves. The toy train aisle in the store is stocked with HO and N train sets and some accessories (track, pre-built buildings, scenic stuff). However, the store clerks know little or nothing about toy train products.
When I was the President of the Central Arkansas Model RR Club (based in Conway), I asked the local HOBBY LOBBY store manager for permission to set up a 4x8-feet layout in the "classroom" at the store and staff it with club volunteers for "show and tell" sessions. The demos might help sell Lionel trains on display in their train hobby aisle -- and maybe bring some new members into the club.
That freebie offer was more or less politely refused; they wouldn't give up the classroom space because other hobbyists (flower arrangers, knitters, cross-stitchers, water color painters, etc.) couldn't be displaced from the classroom, even if only temporarily.
Others have already commented about the limited marketplace for O-gauge trains. The bean counters in the retail realm pre-crunch the numbers and know how that turns out.
Conclusion: Support your local train hobby store while it's still in business.
Mike Mottler LCCA 12394
RickO posted:Times have/will/always change. Kids are no longer interested in toy trains.
Just as many were probably no longer interested in playing marbles when Lionel came along.
The internet can take kids anywhere, a toy train just goes in circles. Do I agree with it, no, but this is how things are in 2020.
Come to think of it. Kids aren't interested in may "hands on toys" these days. Especially when younger moms and dads let them be babysitted by a device.
Just because the box or booklet shows the track plan of a small circle or oval does not mean that the track plan has to be that. Real railroad tracks have long straight sections, then curve left and right. For O gauge layouts people should be shown more long track plans on SHELVES to appreciate the long distances traveled.
Andrew
In haven’t seen a Lionel O gauge set in Hobby Lobby for at least three years now. No track either.
Mike H Mottler posted:From Walmart Land ...
Arkansas is home to Walmart, with HQ in Bentonville. The company works behind the scenes (and through the legislature) to keep Costo and Menards out of the state -- as "unwelcome big box competitors." I visited a Menards store in southern Illinois while traveling, and the "train section" in that store was semi-impressive. I bought some O-gauge stuff there and took it home.
Rumor Mill ... I've heard it said that Lionel is more interested in placing its products in TARGET stores than in Walmart, with the notion that Target is a "slightly higher class store" than Walmart. Maybe so. It's well known that Walmart fiercely presses manufacturers to cut production costs, so that's a turn-off to Lionel and others.
Mike Mottler LCCA 12394
1. WM keeping others out of the AR: Sounds of monopoly and/or RICO. And RICO here is not a narrow gauge station in CO.
2. Target is seems a cut above WM. But during the weekend the Houston stores at IH10/Taylor and Memorial City look as if the were hit by the Taz tornado.
Bit another issue: Is the lack of QA affecting Lionel starter sets?
Given I grew up without internet, I must be strange for someone my age. The modern technology I find takes so much maintenance that it is rather distracting and time consuming. To the point computer and software problems actively discourage me from model trains as, one more computer I have to fix. The modern high stress high instant gratification world does not make a good match up with most hobbies, the lack of adrenaline rush makes a rather effective deterrent from a relaxed and slow hobby. The addiction to change for the sake of change also causes issues, probably why LEGO is the biggest toy company in the world. I don't see many of their train sets either, and when I do it is events or specialty stores.
I rarely see train sets of any kind anymore in big box stores. So far in life have I seen a Lionel set outside of my local Hobby shop once, a G Gauge polar Express set, it was at a Shopko (general retail store without a grocery department) the year they closed. I used to see in the school book order forms in grade school through junior high an advertisement for a Lionel Starter Set, a 4-4-2, a yellow flat car with stay ends, boxcar I think could have been a gondola or hopper, and a caboose. I almost picked it up this year too, when I found three of them.
The end of tubular O-27 and the push for high detail also does not help, since that removed the intro market that was more accessible. Used is good and an honest competitor, but with out the space and money light O-27 the bottom of the market where Walmart would be is gone for good. Really all that is left is the mid and high end part of the hobby. HO and N have the same issue with the end of DC train sets.
When it comes to Walmart, the starter sets make a good fit if the market is there, above that no.
Support your local hobby shop/train store if you are lucky enough to have one. Otherwise, or additionally, support those dealers who support the hobby through their advertising with OGR and the other publications.
Jim R. posted:In haven’t seen a Lionel O gauge set in Hobby Lobby for at least three years now. No track either.
Y'know... I recall when folks on this very forum were bemoaning that Hobby Lobby was selling Lionel trains and competing with LHS's. When Hobby Lobby stopped selling Lionel, the same folks were complaining that they stopped.
Rusty
At the risk of being shunned here, I will admit I have ordered and bought Lionel product from Walmart. Last year I decided to upgrade my Polar Express set to the Bluetooth version and Walmart had a too good to pass up Black Friday deal. I don't have a relatively close LHS anyways and end up ordering my trains online from dealers. Interestingly enough, the Fed Ex shipping label showed the set being shipped right from Concord, NC to my local Walmart. It didn't even come from a Walmart distribution center. I'm not sure what arrangements Lionel and Walmart do have, but if Walmart can sell some Lionel product without having to actually stock it, then it would be a relatively low risk for them.
Rob
Allan Miller posted:Support your local hobby shop/train store if you are lucky enough to have one. Otherwise, or additionally, support those dealers who support the hobby through their advertising with OGR and the other publications.
EXACTLY! I agree 1000%.
Tell me, do you really want to go to Walmart for train support / repairs / advice? 
And Walmart dictates pricing to its suppliers. Yeah, their policy is: we'll carry your product if you sell it to us at this price. How do you think many American manufacturers were driven off-shore?
Check out this hilarious, but sad (and truthful) video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKv6RcXa2UI
George
Offering starter sets ( real O Gauge, not the cheap battery-powered junk) at any non-traditional retailer presents opportunities to introduce children and perhaps even older customers to the hobby who would otherwise not be exposed to it. Considering this negative competition to the LHS is nonsense. I'm talking about the parents, grandparents and others who would not even consider wandering into a local hobby shop for gift ideas, but might come upon a starter set while perusing the isles at a more diverse store. For the child, the interest will either take, or it will not. If it does, he or she will not find what they need to expand their hobby at the big box store, but they will end up patronizing the retailers most of us here now do. A hobby shop will make far more money on the extended interest than on a one-time purchase.
As an adult, I pulled my childhood starter set out of the attic 30 years ago and my interest was renewed. The label on the box indicated it was purchased at Two Guys, which was what would have been considered a big box store back in the 60s, in North Jersey. Re-discovering that set resulted in my spending close to ten thousand dollars since then, all at local hobby shops or online train dealers. It didn't matter if that first set came from a hobby shop, big box store or dropped down the chimney by Santa. It sparked my interest and resulted in one more model railroad enthusiast, and a supporter of the shops that now badly need support.
robmcc posted:Interestingly enough, the Fed Ex shipping label showed the set being shipped right from Concord, NC to my local Walmart. It didn't even come from a Walmart distribution center. I'm not sure what arrangements Lionel and Walmart do have, but if Walmart can sell some Lionel product without having to actually stock it, then it would be a relatively low risk for them.
Rob
Those are called drop shipments. Common practice with Lionel and mass market online retailers such as Kohl’s and Walmart at Christmas time.
Buy it at Walmart. If it doesn't work take it back to Walmart. I will not be fixing it. By it at our local Hobby shop and it will get expedient attention.
I would estimate about a 30-35% increase in price on anything brought back to the US to manufacture. Has nothing to do with Walmart.
Amazon.com.
If Wal-Mart is the 800 pound gorilla in the room, Amazon.com is the 750 pound one. Hey, maybe it’s actually the 850 pound one for all I know....
Amazon is enormous by any standard and getting bigger all the time. And a look at their present Lionel offerings shows a good selection of both O and G gauge sets plus add on cars, etc.
When it comes to holiday sales, Lionel needs to promote its availability at Amazon and other on-line retailers. This is not to say that LHS retailers shouldn’t play an important part in their sales networks, too, but Amazon is absolutely key to reaching today’s mass market, no matter what you’re selling.
IMO.
Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays!
GVDobler posted:I would estimate about a 30-35% increase in price on anything brought back to the US to manufacture. Has nothing to do with Walmart.
Especially since the tooling has to stay in China and new tooling would have to be developed. Even Lionel's Made in USA LionScale cars still use trucks made in China.
Rusty
I think Walmart selling trains would really hurt local Train Shops, especially when (if) younger generations go to this hobby. Between online and Walmart that could hurt local train shops. Hobby Shops are pretty diversified so they wouldn't be hurt as bad.
If Walmart ever did go into model train sales my guess is that it would be starter sets. Any opperating problems would result in the set or piece being exchanged. No repair, or service beyond customer service replacement. jm2c
Steven Taylor
It will run soon
In the case of Menards, wouldn't that be the same scenario ? Not having a Menards store to visit, in my area, I presume they are something similar to a Walmart.
Plenty of stores have battery powered low cost cheap plastic trains, some of which actually run on our O gauge tracks. Are kids actually playing with these or are they just part of the holiday decorations in people's homes? I bought a few of the Walmart $10 North Pole Express sets because the cars worked well with my Marx trains. If kids are playing with these trains perhaps the interest will grow and they will migrate to better trains. Maybe. My kids played with the little Thomas the Tank Engine trains, but never developed an interest in Model Railroading, or old toy train collecting for that matter.
Perhaps part of the problem of selling model/toy trains in retail locations is the lack of real train experience these days? Trains used to be how America grew and prospered. In this day of air freight, long haul trucking and Amazon next day delivery, most kids only know of trains as those big, loud,ugly graffiti filled things that hold us up at crossings and run over us if we don't wait on them. Stay away from trains boys and girls, they can kill you!
The only constant in our lives is change, and that change has made trains and hobbies less attractive to kids today.
Many of us grew up in the postwar era. Our parents were just starting out in small homes in new neighborhoods and folks had to be handy or learn how to do things themselves, often with help from their neighbors.
A neighbor helped my father rebuild the motor in our Hudson and my father helped him with figuring out which tubes his TV needed. New homes were going up everywhere and there was always a supply of scrap wood to make stuff with. Older brothers helped us build go-karts and race cars. There was always a supply of carriage wheels on trash day to use. We supplied the power pushing our wooden contraptions in races. We learned what worked and what failed. When a deck or patio was added, often our fathers did the work and we kids had to help holding boards, sawing boards, etc.
Many of our dads, being handy, enjoyed setting up train layouts. I remember going to friends of my parents and being entranced with the 4' X 16' American Flyer layout in their basement.
A big highlight was going Christmas shopping and seeing all of the train layouts. We'd always get to them last so we would behave in all of the other stores that bored my brother and I. Macys and Gertz had large layouts set up with all of the top of the line locomotives and accessories. We would stay there as long as we could, ignoring the, "It's time to go now," commands from our parents.
The trains went up beneath the Christmas tree, with me helping my dad assemble the tracks. After Christmas, they went back into the box. As a 6 year old, I could only run the trains if dad was there, as tinsel would occasionally fall on the track shorting things out. It was a thrill spending time with my father running the trains. I even enjoyed getting up at 6 AM to take him to the train station (we only had one car) because I got to see the Long Island RR train that took him into New York City.
We moved through several homes but the trains remained a bond with my father and I learned a tremendous amount from him. I grew up enjoying hobbies and doing my own work around my own home. At 68, I still enjoy doing that! My train layout was a 4 X 8, hardly prototypical, but with a kid's imagination, it was never boring. It was a place in the basement I could go and enjoy my own little world that I controlled. As a kid, there wasn't a lot that I could control, but on my train layout I controlled everything!
Fast forward to today, and times have changed. Usually both parents work and as a consequence do less of their own work around the house, tending to hire people to paint, wire, build decks and extensions, etc. There is less time for fathers and sons to enjoy a hobby together in today's 24/7 world and much of today's entertainment centers on screens and electronic games that are more interactive and faster paced than the trains that our generation explored.
Rather than a value judgement of now vs. then, we can only say that significant changes have occurred in our society over the last 70 years. As a result, these changes and the marketplace have determined that toy trains are no longer the "hot toy" for kids like they were in the 1950's. The pace of change has also accelerated and few toys are likely to be the hot toy for more than a few years, not the decades that toy trains were so attractive.
As a consequence, toy trains will likely remain a niche product, largely fueled by people like me who attach fond memories to enjoying them.
handyandy posted:Plenty of stores have battery powered low cost cheap plastic trains, some of which actually run on our O gauge tracks. Are kids actually playing with these or are they just part of the holiday decorations in people's homes? I bought a few of the Walmart $10 North Pole Express sets because the cars worked well with my Marx trains. If kids are playing with these trains perhaps the interest will grow and they will migrate to better trains. Maybe. My kids played with the little Thomas the Tank Engine trains, but never developed an interest in Model Railroading, or old toy train collecting for that matter.
Perhaps part of the problem of selling model/toy trains in retail locations is the lack of real train experience these days? Trains used to be how America grew and prospered. In this day of air freight, long haul trucking and Amazon next day delivery, most kids only know of trains as those big, loud,ugly graffiti filled things that hold us up at crossings and run over us if we don't wait on them. Stay away from trains boys and girls, they can kill you!
and modern trains are as exciting to watch as watching paint dry. We used to look forward to getting stopped at a crossing just so we could see all the different kinds of cars, the different railroad heralds, especially the already fallen flags. And you could still see PRR,NYC and some of the other then gone famous roads. Now all I see around here is endless garbage or tanker trains. Nothing to catch a kids eye. And not hardly a good hobby shop to show them Lionel, or even airplane or car models.
handyandy posted:Plenty of stores have battery powered low cost cheap plastic trains, some of which actually run on our O gauge tracks. Are kids actually playing with these or are they just part of the holiday decorations in people's homes?
I'd be willing to bet that 99% of non-model railroader homes is holiday decoration, then back into storage,n ever to be seen again until next year... Maybe.
I bought a few of the Walmart $10 North Pole Express sets because the cars worked well with my Marx trains. If kids are playing with these trains perhaps the interest will grow and they will migrate to better trains. Maybe. My kids played with the little Thomas the Tank Engine trains, but never developed an interest in Model Railroading, or old toy train collecting for that matter.
True enough. Trains around the tree doesn't guarantee a future model railroader. Every kid on my block growing up in the 1950's had trains at Christmastime. As far as I know, I'm the only one that became a model railroader. Even my brother "outgrew" his interest in trains.
Perhaps part of the problem of selling model/toy trains in retail locations is the lack of real train experience these days?
True enough. My interest was cemented by two long distance train adventures before the second grade.
Trains used to be how America grew and prospered. In this day of air freight, long haul trucking and Amazon next day delivery, most kids only know of trains as those big, loud,ugly graffiti filled things that hold us up at crossings and run over us if we don't wait on them. Stay away from trains boys and girls, they can kill you!
Plus, you can't really "hang out" at a local yard if you're near one nowadays. If they're not fenced off like BNSF's Clyde Yard is now, the Railroad Police are likely to shuttle you off if you get too close.
Rusty
No !
Dan Padova posted:In the case of Menards, wouldn't that be the same scenario ? Not having a Menards store to visit, in my area, I presume they are something similar to a Walmart.
Menards is a home improvement store. Not a discount department store. And it only sells toys seasonally.
But, yes, Menards could impact starter-set train sales of nearby hobby shops if it decided to stock sets again or produce its own. And Menards does sell its own brand of buildings and freight cars, which does mean some dollars are diverted from local hobby shops, albeit for lower-cost, traditional sized trains, plus some HO stuff.
It’s noteworthy to point out that because John Menard is a train enthusiast, Menards is doing something no other big-box chain will do. He is kind of breaking the rules for big-box stores in this regard. But anyone who knows John Menard well realizes he’s a strong-willed character with a track record of incredible success. He can get away with it.
Walmart? Well, if Sam Walton was still alive and he shared the same train passion, then maybe he would force the issue inside Walmart. But he’s not, and wasn’t, so Walmart will continue to obey the rules of big-box merchandising, which dictates that in-store sales have to be high volume and rapid-turnover in nature.
The only way Walmart would stock O gauge sets in store is if there was a renaissance of the toy train market to at least match the 1950s. Otherwise, again, Walmart recognizes that online sales are a better way to sell select merchandise that can achieve some satisfactory level of volume through national sales generated by drop shipments or single-source warehouse shipping.
It's not Wal-Mart, but I literally just saw this now as I walked into my local Publix supermarket (Lighthouse Point, FL) so I had to take a photo. It was a Lionel Polar Express up front with the seasonal toys. 
Looks like an HO sized toy. At least Lionel is showing an attempt.
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G3750 posted:Allan Miller posted:Support your local hobby shop/train store if you are lucky enough to have one. Otherwise, or additionally, support those dealers who support the hobby through their advertising with OGR and the other publications.
EXACTLY! I agree 1000%.
Tell me, do you really want to go to Walmart for train support / repairs / advice?
And Walmart dictates pricing to its suppliers. Yeah, their policy is: we'll carry your product if you sell it to us at this price. How do you think many American manufacturers were driven off-shore?
Check out this hilarious, but sad (and truthful) video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKv6RcXa2UI
George
That video is hilarious. Soooooooo, many valid comments folks! I, too, am back into the hobby after waxing nostalgic of the fond memories of Lionel trains with my dad in the early '70's (I have the original MPC set from then - and ya, it ain't great quality-wise). The new(er) overseas stuff is so impressive! Lionchief, Legacy/CAB controllers - nice! I bought the more recent Hot Wheels Lionchief set complete with Bluetooth app etal - seems like decent quality - we'll see how long it lasts. I'm no historian, but the empirical evidence and the cursory reading I've done shows that Joshua & Son were against the ropes already in the late '50's. No significant Wal-Mart or Amazon then.
Saw this at Target today, a great deal and a terrific gift for someone as a starter set in G.
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Allan Miller posted:Support your local hobby shop/train store if you are lucky enough to have one. Otherwise, or additionally, support those dealers who support the hobby through their advertising with OGR and the other publications.
Agreed. But, if our local hobby shop can’t make the adjustments that some of our sponsors have to operate in the brick and mortar and online world, they can’t survive any better than any other industries. They will struggle the way that periodicals that couldn’t go digital struggled. We do support them, but we can’t save someone with an unsustainable business model.
To the OP question, my answer is still no. But that’s merely based on my feelings. If big box stores thought they could make a profit, the products would be on their shelves.
