is LIONEL GOING TO YORK THIS WEEK?

I think they are at Comicon in NYC instead.  This is their second year, so hopefully this outreach is bearing fruits.  They had a packed crowd last year. The comicon schedule shows them giving a presentation  at 2:45 on Saturday for an hour.

Sadly, I think Lionel has abandoned the York Meet permanently.

Lionel, like several other companies (OGR included) have decided York just isn't what it used to be. They feel their money is best spent elsewhere.

@Strap Hanger posted:

I think they are at Comicon in NYC instead.  This is their second year, so hopefully this outreach is bearing fruits.  They had a packed crowd last year. The comicon schedule shows them giving a presentation  at 2:45 on Saturday for an hour.

I wonder how the Comicon demographic feels about trains? It would be great to see expansion of enthusiasm for model railroading.

They are not listed anywhere on the dealer hall charts. So no they won’t be there.

You want Lionel to come back to York?  Stop buying their trains.   We'll be potential customers again.

Lionel is at Booth 1247 at the Javits Center, NYC, and will feature Halloween Cars tomorrow through Sunday.

Arguably, a good business move to appeal to a larger, different, and fresh demographic. Comicon NYC last attendance was 200,000 which beats York by about 190,000 people !!!

Comicon NYC last attendance was 200,000 which beats York by about 190,000 people !!!

It beats York attendance by 196,500 people. April attendance was about 3,500 even though maybe more bought passes and did not attend.
Very smart move on Lionel to spread the word about the model railroading hobby with starter sets there. New folks entering the hobby and much more bang for their money attending an event like Comicon with a weekend attendance of 200,000!!
Have to give Howard Hitchcock credit for marketing the Lionel there plus operating 2 mall- setting stores.

Lionel gets a thumbs UP!

@Bruce Brown posted:

Lionel is at Booth 1247 at the Javits Center, NYC, and will feature Halloween Cars tomorrow through Sunday.

Arguably, a good business move to appeal to a larger, different, and fresh demographic. Comicon NYC last attendance was 200,000 which beats York by about 190,000 people !!!

My daughter used to go to NYC Comic Con for years.  I told her Lionel was going to be present there.  She laughed and said, What?  Why?

I suspect that not many of those 200,000 attendees, if any, are interested in model trains.  More people that attend the York Meet are interested in Lionel than at Comic Con.

I see the wisdom of going to an event that attracts a larger number of potentially new customers, but I don’t see that group of people being particularly interested in trains, so I agree with the above 100%.  I would think getting the trains into stores that sell toys, or perhaps marketing them at a large home retailer or big box store as part of a Christmas display makes more sense to me.  Maybe even having a presence at a large holiday rail show like the one that is done at the NY Botanical Gardens or similar.  

I like Lionel, but the absence from York strikes me as a bit arrogant as well.  The demographic of people discussing which Vision Line Hudson they are going to buy are the folks at York.  Maybe make an effort to go show the product and meet the customers?  Not against expanding the tent, but don’t take the existing loyal base for granted.

@Norman R posted:

I wonder how the Comicon demographic feels about trains? It would be great to see expansion of enthusiasm for model railroading.

I thought this was a joke, but I looked it up and they are/were at ComiCon.

I can see why showing your product (not traditional model railroading items) to 200,000 people, many of them young and early middle aged rather than 3-4,000 people who are mostly over 60 might seem an attractive proposition .

I don't think this is arrogance or anything similar. This is about a tiny company with limited resources looking to the future.  And not spending their limited resources preaching to the choir.  Don't take their absence personally.  York isn't the be all and end all of train shows and trade shows.

And frankly, Lionel has minimal competition now in the three rail market.  So it's a purely business decision, not about friendship and collegiality. Ryan and Dave and their crew still love and appreciate us.

Has Lionel attended York at all in recent years? I was last at York in Oct. 2022 and Lionel was not there. MTH was there and seemed swamped with techies discussing apps and Smart devices, and I moved on. Frankly, if Lionel was there, I suspect the crowds would be doing the same thing. I don't mind newfangled ways to run trains, but it's become too complex with little substance. "Show me the beef!"

I miss the Lionel iconic exhibit with new items showcased and that neat layout (TW designed) they had...same with MTH's once grand exhibit with layout, but York seems to have changed. In 2022, I recall more older stuff and train parts galore, postwar, prewar, etc., and very little new stuff, with even fewer structures and accessories, except from a few prominent dealers.

@Norman R posted:

I wonder how the Comicon demographic feels about trains? It would be great to see expansion of enthusiasm for model railroading.

My son attended last year and told me they had a large crowd and that it was very well received. I have to think Lionel agreed and that’s why they are there again. Kudos to Lionel for their efforts to expand the hobby .

My cousin is a vendor at Comicon. He noted the Lionel booth was well attended. Model trains are still fun and I commend Lionel for reaching out to a new audience. A smart marketing move.

Paul

This is not a bad idea for Lionel (or any train manufacture) to broaden their horizons and go where the people are.  In a lot of ways going to York for Lionel is like preaching to the choir, they want to drum up new customers and interest in their products and comic-con fits the right demographic. This might be harder for the more niche manufactures in our hobby but you'd be very surprised how you might think model trains are out of place for an event / crowd but rather they'll get a lot of attention!

I also understood that they had a disagreement over some things with the York people.  I know- not exhibiting at York sort of hurts our feelings. 

We DO need to add people ("young" people)  Not necessarily kids though.

My impression is that the 30- 40-something demographic IS interested in collecting comics, and looking at the pictures- other things at that show as well.  No first-hand experience, but the comic-collector approach seems logical.   

Lionel's biggest percentage of sales is in starter sets.  I believe.  And if only 2% of people at a show with 200,000 attendees see the products for the first time, get blown away with what the current trains can do- and then buy a starter set??  At an average of $350- retail = $ 1.4 million. It takes 700 $2000 dollar engines to equal that. And if you get the beginnings of new hobbyists- that make sense.

But the question is- where would a train manufacturer go to reach a new, younger demographic?  Could be directly to the 40 year old, or through that 40 year old's child.  Where else?  And how much would such a marketing effort cost?  What might be some other (than ComiCon) ways to reach NEW people (not necessarily us.)??

Lionel is not a super big company.  We are a small market. They have to spend the dollars they have wisely , I am sure.

I agree with you, Mike, Lionel is not a super big company. My estimate is that they are probably in the mid-size category of American businesses, which from memory is over $50M but less than $100M in annual sales.

The toy train business has been and continues to be about pushing product, and I admit I sometimes forget this when I get sentimental about my boyhood trains and the hobby in general. From the dealers who report truck and pallet loads of stuff coming in regularly, and from the catalogs, Lione is doing quite well. I know next to nothing about marketing, suffice it to say there's tons of experts that do know a lot about it. Regarding reaching a younger demographic...and taking a wild guess here...I'd guestimate that advertising via internet and on-line hobby magazines would reach more young ones than Lionel going to train meets.

@Ted Bertiger posted:

Comicon NYC last attendance was 200,000 which beats York by about 190,000 people !!!

It beats York attendance by 196,500 people. April attendance was about 3,500 even though maybe more bought passes and did not attend.

Ted…..I don’t disagree with you about where Lionel should put its advertising dollars, but your attendance figures are a little off. I regularly go to the Eastern Division business meeting on Saturday AM and get prelims at that time knew that figure was off. Here are the published figures from the Primer…..

Peter

I don't care how many people attend. I care how many trains there are to buy.

There are very few trains at Comicon, Lionel or no Lionel.

ALL of my near-lifetime hobbies (slot cars, model trains, model aircraft, and now RC sailboat racing) face the same thing-  you name it- they all have these same discussions about reaching new, younger audiences.

Reaching kids (12- 18) will not likely make any difference in the short term.  They will get involved with sports, education, chasing those of the opposite sex, and if over 25-30, buying homes and starting families.  75 year olds taking grandchildren to York is admirable- but we will lose the vast majority of whatever new 12- 18 year old hobbyists we gain.  They MAY come back- in 10-15 years - but by then the game will be over.

To really build the hobby we need 40-somethings, who have children they want to connect with, AND who have some (or more) disposable income.  Meet those-and we gain, even if a little at a time.

The reported demographics from Comic-Con are 50/50 male and female; 70% of attendees say "to buy stuff" is their main motivation, and the average spend is around $300.   Half spent between $100- $500, and 7% of attendees spent over $1000 on merchandise (not including lodging, meals and travel).  So the Comic-Con attendees have and spend money.  But still fantasy and pop culture are the focus.

Lionel seems to be trying to reach new people through Comic- Con, but also in their starter set product offerings (Batman, Halloween, Hogwarts, Polar Express, Disney, even Barbie.)

Schmart!!

It's hard to accept that the hobby isn't all about us, personally .  Being 76, I know the future isn't about me, personally, for obvious reasons.  Change is always a challenge, and change is a constant in life and history. This is part of that change.

Reminds me of this stanza of a 60 year old Dylan song about bigger issues:

"Come mothers and fathers throughout the land
And don't criticize what you can't understand
Your sons and your daughters are beyond your command
Your old road is rapidly agin'
Please get out of the new one if you can't lend your hand
For the times, they are a-changin'"

As someone who did attend NYCC yesterday, the reception Lionel got was pretty positive much like last year. While the majority of the attendees are seem to be in their late teens to early 30's (I'm one of those), I still see a lot of parents who bring their young children, too. A lot of the people who were buying stuff from Lionel (which there was surprisingly a decent amount just from the first day) were either affordable starter sets (likely to give to their children for a holiday gift) or (more-so from my observation) inexpensive rolling stock exclusive to the convention event, which is a major factor for a lot of the larger names selling at these big events.

I see this as a win-win for Lionel and the hobby in general - A very large but still impressionable audience who likely didn't even know they existed if they didn't attend at all now knows and will have them in mind if they want to get started, those who do know Lionel get something extra to potentially purchase from them, and Lionel gets to make some money with a reasonable amount of expenses they can live with to setup, while simultaneously getting the word out and promoting the hobby in new territory.

And frankly speaking, this is something that I think a lot of people have been telling Lionel do for awhile. I understand getting new, young people invested in this is very difficult (more-so now than ever), but to do that you have to take some risks, and this is one example of doing just that. Lionel going to an event that likely has no relation to themselves, but can still get their name out to a very large audience and a reason to get interested?

I say go for it.

I had to google "Comic-Con" to learn what it's about. I was assuming incorrectly it was what some used to refer to as "Toy Fair" - which if I recall was/is not open to the public. The "Comic-Con" looks right up Lionel's wheelhouse.

A quick and what I think would be a reasonably accurate way for Lionel of determining the York demographic would be for them to set up a small booth and have a raffle for a free Base 3, subject to filling out whether a person runs trains via command control or conventional. People love free stuff, and even if a person didn't know what a Base 3 is or does, I think they'd still fill out a short questionnaire with raffle ticket.

As I think about what my company pays for travel, and for Lionel paying for say at least 3 reps hotel, travel expense to include trailer with the goodies, overtime, per-diem, etc., would get costly. A quick and what I think would be a reasonably accurate way for Lionel of determining the York demographic would be for them to set up a small booth and have a raffle for a free Base 3, subject to filling out whether a person runs trains via command control or conventional.

If you want to talk arrogance, think of the pedantic  management of the TCA  - They burned Lionel and now have to face the consequences.   

Lionel at Comic Con?  When I saw that first post I thought it was a joke.  What’s next, the Furry Convention?  🤣

My FWIW opinion:

Let's see: Exposure to a 200,000 "fresh meat" market, vs trying to appease a 2000 "old curmudgeon" market = No brainer.

I applaud Lionel for trying to expand their market. Good for them!

IMHO, ALL hobby-oriented businesses need to be thinking about their future market and how to get exposure in order to connect with it.

Andre

Ya know how we often take umbrage at the stereotypes thrown at Train Hobbyists?

This thread sure is full of that towards Comicon aficionados.  It betrays ignorance of that segment.  How about we turn down the hypocrisy a bit?

@mike.caruso posted:

Lionel at Comic Con?  When I saw that first post I thought it was a joke.  What’s next, the Furry Convention?  🤣

Ignorance is bliss.

In my opinion, more new customers coming to O scale railroading is better for all of us for the industry.  More variety, keeps the value up and keeps new ideas and new talent flowing in.

I think rather than Lionel coming to York and selling Bibles to the Pope, they should be out there bringing in new converts.  Every attendee of York is already an O scale customer.

I think there is a subset of attendees at ComicCon interested in diorama building and other crafts.  It would take just a slight push out of the light to turn them into model railroaders

I don't care if they never come to York. it's their loss.

I just saw a segment on Fox Business news about Comic-Con. Didn't see Fox at York.

They got tired of hearing about Quality Control issues.

@mike.caruso posted:

Lionel at Comic Con?  When I saw that first post I thought it was a joke.  What’s next, the Furry Convention?  🤣

Best part about Comic-cons, you can go there dressed up in your choo-choo engineer outfit and no one cares what you are wearing.  It's fun

I wore a shirt to York for a beer called "Polygamy Porter" and got all kinds of stares and odd comments. 

Looking on eb@y, there are already dozens of the 2024 Lionel Comic Con exclusives for sale.  Don't think the buyers of these items are all that serious about model trains.

@ed h posted:

Looking on eb@y, there are already dozens of the 2024 Lionel Comic Con exclusives for sale.  Don't think the buyers of these items are all that serious about model trains.

That's common among all sorts of "collectibles"  these days. Everytime an Ohtani bobblehead give away happens, it goes crazy. But it's not everyone who gets one that does that. So don't paint with such a broad stroke

Do the math:  Assume that each starter set averages $400*.  Assume that just 1% or 2000 people from Comic-Con buy a starter set at the show, or within a reasonable time (say 5 months) .  Sales would be 2000 people X $400  and $800,000.

What would Lionel's sales AT York have to be to be equal??  Lionel only sells new products.  What is the average spend at York for NEW product??  What share of those dollars went to Lionel?

And most of those people (at York) may be the present -- but are not "the future".  York was a big, costly effort just for "goodwill" among people who already knew about Lionel and model trains.

Lionel also must be spending several times in NEW York what they did at York for expenses and still seems to like it- they came back.

I doubt they will ever return.  A shame, but I understand why.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*Actual retail "fantasy" set prices:

Batman $ 379 ;  Area 51 $ 430;  Halloween $ 500 ;  Polar Express  $400.

I think that this question has been asked every year since Lionel has not come, and it gets asked again and again. While you could sight all the if's and's or but's(cost, argument with TCA, not interested), do they need to be there? You could probably argue yeah they need to be, but what would you use as your points to that?

1.They need to engage with their consumers.

Answer: Well, consumers can and do engage with them of their own free time.

2.They need to show us what new items they are working on and what they are innovating in.

Answer: Well, they do that too through their own channel as well as hitting the circuit like TrainWorld's channel.

3.They don't seem to care.

Answer: Well, they do to what is in their control and constraints.

Yeah, I am sure we could probably come up with a bunch of talking points, but looking at them we could probably come up with an answer for most like what I have outlined above.

I don't know what could be said about them coming or not coming, as Eddie G. said, "I don't care if they never come to York. it's their loss." Now you may think he is being harsh, but remember, he was at many York's with none of the manufacturer's there, so he has a true perspective of how things have been, and how they are. What is York you may ask, Eddie has provided that answer as well as most of us that like to hang out with our train buddies. Our buddies are everyone we interact with, yeah they may include some of the dealers, or even some people that work for manufacturer's(possibly), heck who knows.

I would say that the fair majority go there to interact with the people that they have come to know over the years, I know I do. I love talking to everyone I meet whomever they are. Yeah I miss some of the interaction that I have had with members of the Lionel crew, but as I stated, you still can engage with them to some degree. I don't know what else to say, but that is my view on it.

@Mike Wyatt posted:

Do the math:  Assume that each starter set averages $400*.  Assume that just 1% or 2000 people from Comic-Con buy a starter set at the show, or within a reasonable time (say 5 months) .  Sales would be 2000 people X $400  and $800,000.

What would Lionel's sales AT York have to be to be equal??  Lionel only sells new products.  What is the average spend at York for NEW product??  What share of those dollars went to Lionel?

And most of those people (at York) may be the present -- but are not "the future".  York was a big, costly effort just for "goodwill" among people who already knew about Lionel and model trains.

Lionel also must be spending several times in NEW York what they did at York for expenses and still seems to like it- they came back.

I doubt they will ever return.  A shame, but I understand why.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*Actual retail "fantasy" set prices:

Batman $ 379 ;  Area 51 $ 430;  Halloween $ 500 ;  Polar Express  $400.

It's not a matter of sales at the show.  AFAIK, Lionel never sold trains at York because they did not want to compete with their dealers.  They handed out catalogs, talked with people, and sold miscellaneous stuff like shirts, flags, Xmas ornaments, etc., but not trains.  (Same for MTH and Atlas.)

IMO they're being penny wise and pound foolish by ignoring the segment of the hobby that buys their big-dollar items.  I'm not one of those customers, so I really don't care, but I still think it's a dumb business decision.  I did a lot of folks beeching about it at the meet, though.