It's time to hear from the Dealers!

"In light of the many current problems that are plaguing Lionel and Lionel's reported sorry treatment of their customers"

Don't think there is any reason to believe these are facts at this point.  Assertions of problems on an internet forum aren't exactly substantive data.  Particularly when the product line has hundreds of items, produced in the thousands.  A few lemons like the Mogul, some teething problems with Lionscale domestically made rolling stock don't exactly constitute an epidemic.  One person with a few dozen problems isn't necessarily representative. Your assumptions may be wildly incorrect.

Big Jim posted:

In light of the many current problems that are plaguing Lionel and Lionel's reported sorry treatment of their customers, it is time for the Dealers to speak up about Lionel's treatment of the "Middle Man". Are the Dealers really getting the shaft too or is Lionel reimbursing them for Lionel's mistakes.

Both of the two hobby shops in our immediate area will no longer "order for stock" ANYTHING involved with the high-end Lionel products. Both only stock/sell "starter sets", unless a customer specifically orders one of the high-end items.

I would also like to know if the Dealers are speaking up to Lionel in order for Lionel to step up to the plate and do the right thing. In other words, are the dealers getting fed up with returns enough to tell Lionel that enough is enough, get your act together? Are they telling Lionel that their image is suffering and if something doesn't change soon, they will not be able to sell their product as no one is going to buy something new that they have to fix upon first opening the box?

Landsteiner posted:

"In light of the many current problems that are plaguing Lionel and Lionel's reported sorry treatment of their customers"

Don't think there is any reason to believe these are facts at this point. 

The owner of one local hobby shop told me point blank, that Lionel will no longer "repair warranty items" involved with the starter sets, he sells. He either must have his "repair guy" fix it, or give the customer a refund, and eat THAT himself. Just repeating what he told me, and I've known the owner for some 40 years. For what it's worth, his store/building is up for sale, and he will "retire" to horse raising/boarding.

Assertions of problems on an internet forum aren't exactly substantive data.  Particularly when the product line has hundreds of items, produced in the thousands.  A few lemons like the Mogul, some teething problems with Lionscale domestically made rolling stock don't exactly constitute an epidemic.  One person with a few dozen problems isn't necessarily representative. Your assumptions may be wildly incorrect.

"Both of the two hobby shops in our immediate area will no longer "order for stock" ANYTHING involved with the high-end Lionel products. Both only stock/sell "starter sets", unless a customer specifically orders one of the high-end items."

Isn't it most likely that's a market decision rather than a quality decision?  Not many buyers of high end items these days, which is one reason Lionel (and MTH) adopted the build to order approach for virtually all high end stuff.  No one but the larger dealers (e.g., Charles Ro) are ordering high end items for stock these days, from what I read and hear.

I'm more concerned with the poor treatment from dealers and not too concerned with the excellent treatment I have gotten from Lionel!  I can't fault Lionel for not having sold out items or parts for brand new items.  The effort they are making to please everyone is amazing! 

Jim

Landsteiner posted:

"Both of the two hobby shops in our immediate area will no longer "order for stock" ANYTHING involved with the high-end Lionel products. Both only stock/sell "starter sets", unless a customer specifically orders one of the high-end items."

Isn't it most likely that's a market decision rather than a quality decision? 

Nope! Not completely, as one of the owners told me point blank that he is "fed up" with the "quality issues" from Lionel. This hobby shop owner, is second generation, as his father started the business in the late 1940s and was an "original authorized Lionel Dealer & repair shop", as he explained. He also pointed out, that for many years now, he has been forced to purchase Lionel products through a distributor, as there are now only something like 5 or 7 hobby shops that can "buy direct" from Lionel (I'll bet you all know who THOSE are).

Not many buyers of high end items these days, which is one reason Lionel (and MTH) adopted the build to order approach to virtually all high end stuff.  No one but the larger dealers (e.g., Charles Ro) are ordering high end items for stock these days, from what I read and hear.

"The owner of one local hobby shop told me point blank, that Lionel will no longer "repair warranty items" involved with the starter sets, he sells. He either must have his "repair guy" fix it, or give the customer a refund, and eat THAT himself. Just repeating what he told me, and I've known the owner for some 40 years. For what it's worth, his store/building is up for sale, and he will "retire" to horse raising/boarding."

If true, this is a violation of multiple state and federal laws by Lionel, so I'm inclined to doubt the accuracy of these statements.

The owner of one local hobby shop told me point blank, that Lionel will no longer "repair warranty items" involved with the starter sets, he sells. He either must have his "repair guy" fix it, or give the customer a refund, and eat THAT himself. Just repeating what he told me, and I've known the owner for some 40 years. For what it's worth, his store/building is up for sale, and he will "retire" to horse raising/boarding.

How could Lionel even do that? Isn't the warrantee between the manufacturer/importer and the end customer?

Hot Water posted:

Landsteiner posted:

"Both of the two hobby shops in our immediate area will no longer "order for stock" ANYTHING involved with the high-end Lionel products. Both only stock/sell "starter sets", unless a customer specifically orders one of the high-end items."

Isn't it most likely that's a market decision rather than a quality decision? 

Nope! Not completely, as one of the owners told me point blank that he is "fed up" with the "quality issues" from Lionel. This hobby shop owner, is second generation, as his father started the business in the late 1940s and was an "original authorized Lionel Dealer & repair shop", as he explained. He also pointed out, that for many years now, he has been forced to purchase Lionel products through a distributor, as there are now only something like 5 or 7 hobby shops that can "buy direct" from Lionel (I'll bet you all know who THOSE are).

Not many buyers of high end items these days, which is one reason Lionel (and MTH) adopted the build to order approach to virtually all high end stuff.  No one but the larger dealers (e.g., Charles Ro) are ordering high end items for stock these days, from what I read and hear.

 

Maybe his lack of purchasing product has led to his loss of the ability to buy direct?? 

Jim

carsntrains posted:

Hot Water posted:

Landsteiner posted:

"Both of the two hobby shops in our immediate area will no longer "order for stock" ANYTHING involved with the high-end Lionel products. Both only stock/sell "starter sets", unless a customer specifically orders one of the high-end items."

Isn't it most likely that's a market decision rather than a quality decision? 

Nope! Not completely, as one of the owners told me point blank that he is "fed up" with the "quality issues" from Lionel. This hobby shop owner, is second generation, as his father started the business in the late 1940s and was an "original authorized Lionel Dealer & repair shop", as he explained. He also pointed out, that for many years now, he has been forced to purchase Lionel products through a distributor, as there are now only something like 5 or 7 hobby shops that can "buy direct" from Lionel (I'll bet you all know who THOSE are).

Not many buyers of high end items these days, which is one reason Lionel (and MTH) adopted the build to order approach to virtually all high end stuff.  No one but the larger dealers (e.g., Charles Ro) are ordering high end items for stock these days, from what I read and hear.

 

Maybe his lack of purchasing product has led to his loss of the ability to buy direct?? 

Jim

And THAT would be the answer for every other hobby shop in the nation, except for those "special" 5 or 7?

I have no doubt your friend is disgruntled with Lionel, perhaps with good reason.  But those of us in the hobby for decades know that we must take individual dealer's information with a grain of salt.  Usually unintentional misinformation or misunderstandings, and occasionally not-so-unintentional, reflecting personal agendas.

Particularly skeptical is Yoda when their statements suggest a corporate policy that doesn't and couldn't reasonably exist.  You cannot sell an item with a warranty without backing up that warranty, unless you want to wind up in court and losing.  All goods are sold with implied warranties of fitness for use, as well, according to what I've been told by people who know the law. 

Thus your dealer's comments simply defy belief as far as accurately reflecting Lionel's policy, as opposed to his interpretation of it.

Landsteiner posted:

Isn't it most likely that's a market decision rather than a quality decision?  Not many buyers of high end items these days, which is one reason Lionel (and MTH) adopted the build to order approach to virtually all high end stuff.  No one but the larger dealers (e.g., Charles Ro) are ordering high end items for stock these days, from what I read and hear.

This could also be a way to reduce risk on the dealer.  You are suggesting quality and the market are separate entities, I propose they are not.

Lionel adopted Build To Order as a marketing gimmick, nothing more.  Pre-orders have been going on for pretty much the whole 20 years I've been involved in this hobby.  It's always been on the dealer to decide if they would order more than they had hard orders from customers. 

Previous terms : "Allocated"(only a certain number of units to any given dealer, possibly based on other sales orders), the 1998-ish "Heritage" (nothing to do with special painted diesels) program : "Very low or no discount, but these items will be of highest quality and have a lifetime warranty" (lifetime of what was not stated - but there are few or no parts for some/many of these items).

Depending on the dealer/customer relationship, it seems many people in this hobby have become OK over the years with shipping something to Lionel when it's faulty out of the box.  Therefore, for a pre-order, there is less risk to the dealer, since there is a good chance he will be able to convince many customers "that is just the way it is".  Dealer in that scenario becomes just a middle man for your cash.  Some dealers also take deposits (often not refundable) on pre-orders.  That might be OK if they could provide you with a replacement (an exchange - you know like every other retail business (aside from automobiles) in the USA does) if something were to be defective. 

But wait!  It's BTO, so there are no spares!  "OK, I'll just take a refund then."  "We can do that, less your 10% non-refundable deposit."  In the best case scenario here, you could maybe get a credit for something else, assuming there is something else you want to drop the same amount of cash to acquire.

Now translate the risk to a non pre-order.  Someone walks in off the street and buys a high end item and it has a problem.  They try to take it back for an exchange within a few days.  Dealer tells them to send it to Lionel.  They say "uh, I don't think so, and neither does my credit card company".  Dealer then has the defective item on his shelf and now has to do something about it himself (sell it cheap, get it fixed and sell it as refurbished, etc.)

If I was a dealer, I'd be hesitant to continue that game.  Too many issues these days.

To the point of Big Jim's original post, none of us are actually dealers (or if some are, they are anonymous), and I would doubt any currently authorized dealer is about to post anything in this thread.

-Dave

""We can do that, less your 10% non-refundable deposit." "

This too, would be illegal for an item  that did not function, and such as policy would surely be a losing strategy in small claims court, plus court fees in some cases.  I cannot believe any reputable or sane dealer would have this policy or think they could get away with it.  But sanity and reason are in short supply in some hobbies .

carsntrains posted:

Hot Water posted:

Landsteiner posted:

"Both of the two hobby shops in our immediate area will no longer "order for stock" ANYTHING involved with the high-end Lionel products. Both only stock/sell "starter sets", unless a customer specifically orders one of the high-end items."

Isn't it most likely that's a market decision rather than a quality decision? 

Nope! Not completely, as one of the owners told me point blank that he is "fed up" with the "quality issues" from Lionel. This hobby shop owner, is second generation, as his father started the business in the late 1940s and was an "original authorized Lionel Dealer & repair shop", as he explained. He also pointed out, that for many years now, he has been forced to purchase Lionel products through a distributor, as there are now only something like 5 or 7 hobby shops that can "buy direct" from Lionel (I'll bet you all know who THOSE are).

Not many buyers of high end items these days, which is one reason Lionel (and MTH) adopted the build to order approach to virtually all high end stuff.  No one but the larger dealers (e.g., Charles Ro) are ordering high end items for stock these days, from what I read and hear.

 

Maybe his lack of purchasing product has led to his loss of the ability to buy direct?? 

Jim

Unless you buy in such a high quantity Like charles roe and Trainworld your going to deal with a supplier and also from what a friend told me that had a hobby shop up until about 5 years ago that they would force ship some items to you ( ie nascar train sets etc ) weather you wanted them or not. 

Very few can buy direct from Lionel Maybe the ones in the top 10 as a couple advertise. I'm not sure the quota needed but it has to be large, Lionel finds it so much easier to have x amount of products to go to each of the distributors and not even deal with it.  

Landsteiner posted:

""We can do that, less your 10% non-refundable deposit." "

This too, would be illegal for an item  that did not function, and such as policy would surely be a losing strategy in small claims court, plus court fees in some cases.  I cannot believe any reputable or sane dealer would have this policy or think they could get away with it.  But sanity and reason are in short supply in some hobbies .

Sanity and reason are sometimes lacking, no argument there!

While it has since been suggested it's now resolved (so I shall not link to the story nor name names), there was an instance within the last few weeks where a member received an item that was labeled wrong.  (i.e., thing the label said, was not what was in the box). 

The dealer's rep originally told him that it was his problem and he should deal with Lionel to resolve it (Lionel of course had no more of the item).  The owner of the business ultimately reached out and agreed to a return with a refund, so maybe this was just a case of an employee not knowing how to handle what was an admittedly odd scenario.

-Dave

IMO, what's especially concerning in addition to big Jim and others statements is that no recall was issued for the entire run of defective moguls.

Lionel is leaving this up to the consumer to deal with.  This is quite different from the "Mike Reagan era" Lionel that recalled all of the scale turbines to assess any possible water damage.

The customer had the option to wait for repair or receive a refund.

It becomes even more clear with every release why Mike R.left.

Having said that. I feel Ryan and Dave are doing the best they can.

However, I suspect exactly what and how things get made is not up to them yet they bear the brunt of the criticism.

This is the most common way for any business to fail. When the guys in the corporate office make desicions based on the bottom line as opposed to listening to the guys out in the field.

Landsteiner can paint whatever picture with higher product numbers as the excuse for why Lionel has so many more complaints but Mth has had dozens of scale releases quietly selling out without a peep on the forum.

No Landsteiner I'm not an Mth "fanboy" I don't own a single Mth loco....but that day may soon come.

I drove Fords for 20 years, got to be on a first name basis with the service dept long before the warranty was close to being up.

I switched to Toyota who sells far less vehicles than Ford. Now I happily motor along.....without issue...maybe it's luck...or maybe it's better quality.

I'm guessing the latter.

Come on, guys, this is not rocket science.  Most hobby shops purchase inventory through a wholesale distributor, such as Heartland Hobby Wholesale.  It's much easier for the shop owner/operator than ordering from each manufacturer whose merchandise they stock and allows them to stock only what they think they can sell.    

What, me worry?

I wanted to open a train store in retirement.  Every major dealer I spoke to talked me out of it. Three stores have already closed in the past two years. Nobody in Cleveland stocks the expensive engines. They would order it with a 100% non-refundable deposit.

I used over $200,000 to buy new trains in the past two years from Lionel and Atlas O instead.  I have returned over 35 new items to Lionel Service, mostly large, expensive steam engines. Several ES44AC engines were returned for broken cosmetic parts caused by the latest box lid design error. Several I have fixed myself by getting parts from Dean at Lionel Service. My UP FEF-3 came back the second time from Lionel Service with a nice nick in the paint. I have documented these repair trips for the past two years and have been ridiculed by people on OGR Forum. 

I discussed this lack of quality with Mike and Dean two years ago and forecast the problems now being experienced.  "I told you so." Now that more people have experienced them, they are suddenly being seen as "real."

The REAL PROBLEM or both Lionel and Atlas O is the lack of REPAIR PARTS being ordered for future repairs.  There were no Atlas O F7 cosmetic parts available for my thirty-one F7 A and B engines I ordered last year. There are no parts available for the new Lionel Southern Pacific Lines 21" passenger cars (6-83102, 83107 and 82110)  I recently received. There are no couplers, no trucks, no parts that you would expected to need for service over time.

What good is a product that has no parts available for its future repair?  We are now buying new trains for one year only.  If it breaks in the warranty period, we get our money back from the dealer.  If it breaks after one year, the dealer keeps our money and we have a engine or car hat has no parts available for its repair. (NO repair person will be able to get parts.)

Hannibal Cannibal: The new parts supplier.  "Please register your new engine as a parts donor."  It appears that spare parts are now expected to come from all the product failures that are returned to the manufacturers. (Cannibalism in its newest form.) There will be parts (used parts) once the manufacturers start getting returned items from their dealers.

Buy two of each item. The second is for parts.

I expect criticism for my comments, but it will not be coming from Lionel Service. I have emails on file agreeing with many of the quality issues I have discussed on the forum. Their replies include: "Not all shays fail, but some do." "We will not be getting any spare parts." "Send your passenger cars in and we will experiment on them because we don't have any Southern Pacific passenger cars here."

I end here with the hope that all of this is a bad dream.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

"Maybe Lionel will begin throwing in pairs of those blue and orange blinders(....ya know...like the ones Landsteiner wears) in the box with the new incorrect/defective product."

I'll keep this shorter than usual, since I'm up against a scary "tough, hard nosed guy."

A small number of people on this forum (and everywhere) are happy to foam at the mouth with rumor and their general paranoid conclusion that the mayor, their neighbor, the Congress and Lionel are out to screw them. 

The rest of us want facts and data.  I've reported on my dozens of Lionel purchases over the last five years,  and those of my friends, acquaintances and my local dealer's experience.  Perhaps you ought to try to focus on facts and data rather than insults?

If Lionel is having systematic widespread quality problems, your dealer will be able to tell you, but he or she certainly isn't going to post it here, because it would be damaging to the industry and to dealers everywhere.  And their sales will plummet.  Judging from the hard fact that their catalog is larger than ever, that seems unlikely.

As for fan boys, we have some hate boys here, right here in this thread.  Everyone can tell who they are.

"I expect criticism for my comments,"

No criticism or disbelief from me.  Sympathy, yes.  You've related your experience and nothing can change that. 

Your points about parts are germane and almost certainly reflect the tight margins in the industry and the declining sales volume for some products.  It's easier to refund purchase price when some items fail than maintain large part inventories.  The key here is refund, replace or repair.  Any one should be expected and acceptable.  Welcome to this industry and hobby I guess. 

As for failures, they are going to happen, whether Lionel, Atlas, MTH or Sony or Samsung or Toyota.  The economics of repair, refund or replace are obviously vastly different when you're making a few hundred or a thousand of a unique item than if you are making 100 or 1000 times that number.  Anyone who expects the same ability to repair or replace from these companies that are 1000 times different in revenues is going to be disappointed.  Refund should always be offered, when repair or replace isn't feasible,  and should be acceptable, if disappointing.

Landsteiner posted:

I'll keep this shorter than usual, since I'm up against a scary "tough, hard nosed guy."

Not trying to be scary or tough and have no ill intention against you Landsteiner.

You appear to be Lionels strongest defender on this forum. I imagine it's easy to take things personally.

In short, my point is as they say, " if it looks like crap,and smells like crap, it's probably crap".

This quote is not directed towards you, but rather some of Lionels recent product and/or they way they have been doing buisness lately.

Has it ever crossed your mind that some of us that are "disappointed" in recent Lionel  is because they have done good things in the past?

Landsteiner posted:

"Maybe Lionel will begin throwing in pairs of those blue and orange blinders(....ya know...like the ones Landsteiner wears) in the box with the new incorrect/defective product."

I'll keep this shorter than usual, since I'm up against a scary "tough, hard nosed guy."

A small number of people on this forum (and everywhere) are happy to foam at the mouth with rumor and their general paranoid conclusion that the mayor, their neighbor, the Congress and Lionel are out to screw them. 

The rest of us want facts and data.  I've reported on my dozens of Lionel purchases over the last five years,  and those of my friends, acquaintances and my local dealer's experience.  Perhaps you ought to try to focus on facts and data rather than insults?

Facts:

1) Lionel stated in a previous catalog (can't remember which one) that a special version of the UP FEF-3 #838 WITH SELLERS EXHAUST STEAM INJECTOR, would be made, along with the "regular" FEF-3 #844. This was even verified by Lionel representatives at York.  The models of UP #838 arrived incorrect, i.e. they were just an #844 model numbered 838!

2) The Mogul models reportedly run poorly. Did a "total recall" happen? Not yet.

3) The Daylight 21" passengers are incorrect, and poor quality to boot. Will Lionel "take them back"? No, not yet.

If Lionel is having systematic widespread quality problems, your dealer will be able to tell you, but he or she certainly isn't going to post it here, because it would be damaging to the industry and to dealers everywhere.  And their sales will plummet.  Judging from the hard fact that their catalog is larger than ever, that seems unlikely.

As for fan boys, we have some hate boys here, right here in this thread.  Everyone can tell who they are.

Dave45681 posted:

Landsteiner posted:

""We can do that, less your 10% non-refundable deposit." "

This too, would be illegal for an item  that did not function, and such as policy would surely be a losing strategy in small claims court, plus court fees in some cases.  I cannot believe any reputable or sane dealer would have this policy or think they could get away with it.  But sanity and reason are in short supply in some hobbies .

Sanity and reason are sometimes lacking, no argument there!

While it has since been suggested it's now resolved (so I shall not link to the story nor name names), there was an instance within the last few weeks where a member received an item that was labeled wrong.  (i.e., thing the label said, was not what was in the box). 

The dealer's rep originally told him that it was his problem and he should deal with Lionel to resolve it (Lionel of course had no more of the item).  The owner of the business ultimately reached out and agreed to a return with a refund, so maybe this was just a case of an employee not knowing how to handle what was an admittedly odd scenario.

-Dave

Dave if you are talking about my recent experience with reindeer cars and a forum sponsor, your telling of the story isn't quite true or at the very least highly sanitized!!!       I could explain it here and just may.  

Jim 

Landsteiner posted:

 

As for fan boys, we have some hate boys here, right here in this thread.  Everyone can tell who they are.

Yes, hate for the way customers are treated and maybe for the way the mum Dealers are treated. Then we have the boot lickers.

Are the two people arguing here, trying to get this post removed?  Are you trying to obscure the postings of people and dealers who have posted criticism?

Big Jim posted:

Landsteiner posted:

 

As for fan boys, we have some hate boys here, right here in this thread.  Everyone can tell who they are.

Yes, hate for the way customers are treated and maybe for the way the mum Dealers are treated. Then we have the boot lickers.

How about how the customers are treated BY the DUMB dealers??   

Jim 

"Has it ever crossed your mind that some of us that are "disappointed" in recent Lionel  is because they have done good things in the past/"

They are doing good things in the present as well.  If you are looking for failures, every single vendor has them.  Just check the threads asking for help/information or reporting failures.  They are almost daily for Lionel and MTH.  But it's a more profound problem than any one person's disappointment.  Sure there are rare individuals who take pleasure in the misery and failures of others. You can usually tell who those sociopaths are.  But what about those who take the disappointment of others, their own disappointment and take this far beyond what the data support?

I would ask everyone to consider the harm done to real people on this forum by those who spread rumor, hearsay or just venom. 

I am a Lionel fan, true.  But I don't express this enthusiasm by constantly bad mouthing their competitors.  On the other, Hot Water is an MTH fan and consultant who is constantly bad mouthing Lionel.  I'm sure he feels justified.  I consider it blatant bias in most instances.  

What harm to all this rumor mongering and over the top criticism?  Well, if the rumors are true, they will soon be supported by facts (of the sort presented above by Mr. Rowlen).  If the rumors are largely wrong, there are many, including employees of Lionel, the owners and employees of this forum, and Lionel dealers who will suffer unfairly and whose families will suffer as well due to inaccurate rumor mongering.  So there is much more harm than good that can come from global statements about "Lionel has a quality problem."  In my experience, they don't, for one thing.  So these statements are just plain erroneous in my personal experience.  Does that make me Lionel fan boy? To some of you, apparently yes.  Calls for measured comments and reason usually fall on deaf ears on the web.

So if one has facts about one's personal experience or personal observations of others, have at it.  We all want to hear.  If you want to know about a product, ask for other people's experiences for sure. 

I would argue strongly that broad criticisms of failures of a company are irresponsible and damaging to society as a whole if not supported by hard facts.  You wouldn't like rumors spread about you, your family or your company if they weren't factually based and constrained by the data at hand. So why subject Lionel and its employees, and the industry in general to flagrant abuse?

"Then we have the boot lickers."

And then we have those who enjoy causing chaos and unhappiness, or just cannot stand to be contradicted.

"Are the two people arguing here, trying to get this post removed?  Are you trying to obscure the postings of people and dealers who have posted criticism?"

Absolutely not. As far as I can see,  you, myself and one other person are the only one's posting personal experience with Lionel products, as opposed to rumor, innuendo and insults.  The original post is most likely what's going to get this thread deleted.  I don't see any dealer comments,  and I wouldn't expect any dealer with any sense to respond, except to say there aren't any problems worth worrying about.  Bad karma and bad advertising, and lack of enlightened self-interest.  Dealers with any brains would deal with specific customers, with Lionel and ignore requests from "interested individuals" on the web.

Landsteiner posted:

"Has it ever crossed your mind that some of us that are "disappointed" in recent Lionel  is because they have done good things in the past/"

They are doing good things in the present as well.  If you are looking for failures, every single vendor has them.  Just check the threads asking for help/information or reporting failures.  They are almost daily for Lionel and MTH.  But it's a more profound problem than any one person's disappointment.  Sure there are rare individuals who take pleasure in the misery and failures of others. You can usually tell who those sociopaths are.  But what about those who take the disappointment of others, their own disappointment and take this far beyond what the data support?

I would ask everyone to consider the harm done to real people on this forum by those who spread rumor, hearsay or just venom. 

I am a Lionel fan, true.  But I don't express this enthusiasm by constantly bad mouthing their competitors.  On the other, Hot Water is an MTH fan and consultant who is constantly bad mouthing Lionel.  I'm sure he feels justified.  I consider it blatant bias in most instances.  

Well, just to set the record straight, and refute your perception of me, I used to "assist/consult" for quite a number of manufacturers, even back when I was an HO modeler. When I changed to modeling in 3-Rail Scale, I continued to "assist" Atlas O, MTH, Lionel, and Sunset/3rd Rail. All 4 of those companies used to contact me regularly for technical assistance based on prototype railroad practices and appearances. Quite some years ago, the Lionel folks stopped asking, and my friend Jim Weaver at Atlas O passed away. I still answer questions, for MTH and Sunset/3rd Rail, whenever they call me.

 

  I think Lionel should bring all manufacturing back to the US.  It would be at a high cost.  I get ill when I get packages from ALL the companies saying "MADE IN CHINA".   Lionel isn't producing poor products.  The folks in China are!  For all the train companies! Then the buyers want product NOW!  FASTER FASTER FASTER.    So no reviewing said product when it hits the coast.  Shipping fragile engines and cars in a container from the other side of the world.  Make the parts HERE. Put them together HERE.  Paint them HERE.  Glue the road badges on the passenger cars HERE.   Put the screws in the engines trucks HERE!   Use people that want to make and sell a quality product instead of folks that couldn't care less.  Its going to happen folks!  Sooner or later.   Or we will continue to suffer at the hands of the ONLY producers of the products we purchase.   Not just trains.  EVERYTHING!  This is what happens when they hold all the cards.   All the molds.  All the parts, all the production equipment.  Whats Lionel going to say to them?   

Jim 

Truth be told all of the trains by all companies are made within feet of each other.   Buy the same hacks.  For Communist China. 

John Rowlen posted:

The REAL PROBLEM or both Lionel and Atlas O is the lack of REPAIR PARTS being ordered for future repairs.  

What good is a product that has no parts available for its future repair?  

Hannibal Cannibal: The new parts supplier.  

Buy two of each item.

I believe this whole parts availability issue has something to do with the country of origin.....China.

It was true years ago when I when I was more business-involved, and I'm now told in retirement that not much has changed.  Which is that...

China's government decreed that, in order to protect its manufacturing business, it will not sell parts or sub-assemblies of products that it builds in final form.  Now, I'm not quite sure whether this is a fundamental premise, or a matter of gross economics....an incredible surcharge for manufacturing and shipping parts or sub-assemblies, only.  I've heard two stories, the latter the lesser.

Their 'fear' is that in shipping parts, a non-China final assembly entity might be set up in competition with them.  Not sure that's very rational in the world of toy trains, but policy is policy from the governmental perspective.

BTW, one of the sources of this no-parts-provided policy/situation is another HUGE player in the HO market.  Without unnecessarily bringing them into this discussion by name, their parts guy explained to us (LHS) several years ago that parts availability for repairs, warranty or not, was entirely a matter of 'cannibalism'....for which they'd hold some original assembled stock in reserve, as well as periodically tear down and store non-repairable returns.  We're talking MAJOR production of engines and cars here.....for at least the last 25-30 years.

So, obtaining repair parts by cannibalism is not cheap, either...manpower, floorspace, parts/carcass storage, etc..  The OE seller has to cover this expense in their OE msrp, of course.  That they may have some financial or replacement recourse arrangement for a major (think across-the-entire-production-run) flaw/error with the China source is always a possibility....but I doubt you'll ever hear anything about it on the street.  

Nope, unless the quality/durability is in the original production, China-made parts for our hobby is going to be a long-term problem regardless of who holds the OE label. 

Which is why the old K.I.S.S. approach to the O3R hobby that JLC and his contemporaries championed is a thing of the past.  And the dealers...the old-phart middle men of the hobby's heydays of yore...are tired of playing the game, folding up their tattered tents, getting out.

Just MHO, of course.

KD

When your public is silent, you're usually ok.

When your public isn't silent, you're either booming, or there is an issue.

There isn't too much grey area.

Folks like J Rowlen ought to be a clue. If those quoted purchase numbers are correct I'd be checking things out a bit better before I shipped, regardless.

  Not that we don't all deserve good service, but when the "Big Boys" squeak, it's likely time for a lot of lube.

Well....as usual the moderators have gotten plenty of feedback on this thread.  AND...as usual these kinds of threads degrade into "alternative facts".  So....since I would like to spend at least part of my Saturday afternoon in peace and quite and enjoy my family and friends (and trains!), the topic is closed for now... 

RickO posted:

Maybe Lionel will begin throwing in pairs of those blue and orange blinders(....ya know...like the ones Landsteiner wears) in the box with the new incorrect/defective product.

IMO, what's especially concerning in addition to big Jim and others statements is that no recall was issued for the entire run of defective moguls.

Lionel is leaving this up to the consumer to deal with.  This is quite different from the "Mike Reagan era" Lionel that recalled all of the scale turbines to assess any possible water damage.

The customer had the option to wait for repair or receive a refund.

It becomes even more clear with every release why Mike R.left.

Having said that. I feel Ryan and Dave are doing the best they can.

However, I suspect exactly what and how things get made is not up to them yet they bear the brunt of the criticism.

This is the most common way for any business to fail. When the guys in the corporate office make desicions based on the bottom line as opposed to listening to the guys out in the field.

Landsteiner can paint whatever picture with higher product numbers as the excuse for why Lionel has so many more complaints but Mth has had dozens of scale releases quietly selling out without a peep on the forum.

No Landsteiner I'm not an Mth "fanboy" I don't own a single Mth loco....but that day may soon come.

I drove Fords for 20 years, got to be on a first name basis with the service dept long before the warranty was close to being up.

I switched to Toyota who sells far less vehicles than Ford. Now I happily motor along.....without issue...maybe it's luck...or maybe it's better quality.

I'm guessing the latter.

Rick, can't argue with ONE thing you've stated here.  And I love, love, LOVE, your candid suggestion in your opening sentence!!!    Many of us here give Lionel lots of kudos and credit whenever credit is due.  And we also call them out respectfully when needed.  That's called "being objective", and you gain CREDIBILITY in the community by telling both sides of the story.  It's the guys and gals who justify EVERYTHING in support of a "Lionel right or wrong" mentality that gives one cause to doubt -- not to mention what it does to their own credibility in the community.

I just posted a new video on my Vimeo video hosting service, which highlights Lionel's latest StationSounds dining cars amidst reports of all the problems folks are encountering with the SP passenger cars, and I couldn't have been more positive towards Lionel in the review that was posted on another forum.  Yet if Lionel (or any importer) does something that comes up short and could be improved upon, I also try to respectfully call that out as well for the betterment of our hobby and improved quality of products overall.  That's what providing accurate product coverage and market analysis are all about -- at least as I was taught back in the day.  

So who are you gonna give more credibility to?  Somebody who openly discusses the good and the bad?  Or somebody who finds a reason to ALWAYS support what a company does -- right or wrong?    After a certain point, you just don't know what's real and what's fantasy.  When folks take the latter approach, it often leads to the "Emperor with no clothes" syndrome, and eventually everyone sees things for what they really are anyway.  You can never hide the truth for long.

David