L shape Lionel tubular layout engine slows down certain areas.... HELP..

What's the model number of the locomotive that's stalling?

its a C&O  Lionel  624  switcher postwar celebration 6-18978 

I wondering I bought all my switches form tinman  and  I have the switches  wired up for  14 volts with the other KW transformer   I remember  I use the pigtail adapter to  have  in the center the 14 volts and the other side I grounded  .. When I go back to my layout  I'm going to disconnect that extra ground wire and see that's the problem... 

Also when I run that same engine on the other track It runs perfect not slowing down anywhere at any speed..

Voltage Drop is a function of the resistance (impedance with AC) and current. The voltage can still look good on a volt meter if the is no load i.e. train running. The more current the more the difference between the sending end voltage (near the transformer) and the receiving end voltage (near the locomotive). I would still run a feeder to the particular place where you have  the problem.

but I  do have a feeder in between every switch  where It slows down  and between is only 3 ft or less...

What Tncentrr said: you can lose voltage over a bad connection someplace when current flows, it acts like a high resistance.  use alligator clips and leave the voltmeter connected when you run the loco and watch what it does.  

should I connect the  wire Lionel videos said no need to connect back to the transformer ? maybe it will boost that area..?

Is the headlight flashing when it stalls?  You might be dealing with signal interference between the two lines.

Jon

DanssuperO posted:

its a C&O  Lionel  624  switcher postwar celebration 6-18978 

I wondering I bought all my switches form tinman  and  I have the switches  wired up for  14 volts with the other KW transformer   I remember  I use the pigtail adapter to  have  in the center the 14 volts and the other side I grounded  .. When I go back to my layout  I'm going to disconnect that extra ground wire and see that's the problem... 

Neither of the two wires in the pigtail should be grounded. One wire is connected to the center rail of the track, the other powers the switch machine. Switch and track share the same ground through the outside rails. You can add a ground wire connected to the center stud terminal on the switch machine where the switch  controller wires are connected.

Is your layout on benchwork, or on the floor?  Is it level??  A 624 (or pretty much any AC-motored loco) will be somewhat sensitive to loads and grades.  If it's stalling in a sharp curve or incline, you may have to use diodes or variable resistors to lower the voltage everywhere else.

short update I called tinman hes really nice , the way I wired is correct . I do not have a extra ground in the center switch.. though  He recommended  since I am using tmcc with the power-master to run two wires from behind that to the engine when it slows or stall at the speed it ran on the upper level.

When I do and it stalls  adding the extra wires from behind the power-master did not help it move ,so I will have to keep trying  heres a picture of the area that it slows in. upper level fine,

Second problem is if I make the engine run faster sometimes at the two switches it  will make the frount trucks derail... the center power  part where the moving switching part is higher ...Tinman did not think taking them apart and lowering them would help. (center power  strip ) . any thoughts on that  would be appreciated...

sorry for the poor pictures  with my old phone camera.

Just read  some help form other layouts    mentioning...

" If you have tracks going over or under each other you can get into issues with the signal loss. There are easy fixes in these cases where you can force a secondary ground plane and keep the signal strong"

could this be the problem and how  can I resolve this issue..?

I'll tell you what I did to fix the signal issue. I went to the hardware store a bought a regular three prong plug and some #14 solid copper wire. I then attached the wire to the grounding prong, the u shaped one on top. I did not connect wire to any other prong. I plugged this in to a receptacle and ran the one wire over to the trouble spot  and stapled it down next to the track. That fixed my problem.

Are you running TMCC/ Legacy or just conventional? If it's just conventional, all this signal talk doesn't mean anything.

Take a pair of pliers, and squeeze both sides of every joint on all rails where you are having slow down problems. Tighten the rails around the pins. This is a common problem with tubular track. Be careful, the bad joints can get very hot!

^^What Elliot said.  Disconnect your command base and try the loco with a conventional transformer.  This will tell you for sure if it's a signal issue.  Also, is your track level?

One thing I never understood... why do TMCC locos stop when they have a weak / lost signal?  I would have programmed it like a nuclear submarine- if you lose contact with the surface, proceed with your last mission until you receive further orders.  At the very least, the behavior I describe should be an Optional setting through the remote, or a dip switch on the circuit board.  It would solve a lot of grousing I see on these forums!

DanssuperO posted:

My attic layout is coming along  all the track is laid  down.. I have it set up for TMCC control .. I  did what Lionel videos said to do  I ran 14guage wire and  added feeders ever 5 ft   to the tubular O gauge track. I left the end as suggested  not connected to the transformer..  ( of the 14 gauge wire)I have 12 switches on it but feeders in between.

When I run the train  on the lower lever  which is level the train slow down from the setting I had . if left alone it will stall ..

I checked with a  voltmeter and its the same everywhere I check it on the track (where it stalled and runs good is all the same  voltage)

I have a dedicated postwar ZW that  is for track 1 and track 2 that I made  no other power usage is being used (other than phasing the other two KW transformers I use for accessories... on the common terminals..

Am  I losing  amps ? its @16" with @ 8 ' L shape layout... (its in my previous posts)

Thanks for your help ..Daniel

 

Try switching the feeds from the ZW track 1 to track 2 and track 2 to track to track 1 and see if there is a change in operation.

Thanks for the suggestion.. So I did that and  no difference  so I put my double A F3 on and it also will not run in that area smooth it runs but if you slowly throttle her up  and going it will slowly stall but on the upper level  it will crawl no matter what speed ..

I do have a metal 321 bridge and girder that the lionel tubular track is laying on I tried to isolate it temp  but it did not seem to make a difference..

The Tmcc 624 seems to run better with only 3 cars behind it also I guess it like operating a real loco with me having to throttle up and down..

Ok just  disconnected the TMCC  mode and ran it conventional ..  it has the same! issue  I have two spots I an add extra feeds but honestly Im afraid I might have just to many turns and switches in that area!   ? when I ran the power  14 gauge around the layout that area is the furthest from the transformer  maybe I should cut teh wire in two sections and see if it  does not loose  amperage which might be the problem..?  ?  

Ted S posted:

^^What Elliot said.  Disconnect your command base and try the loco with a conventional transformer.  This will tell you for sure if it's a signal issue.  Also, is your track level?

One thing I never understood... why do TMCC locos stop when they have a weak / lost signal?  I would have programmed it like a nuclear submarine- if you lose contact with the surface, proceed with your last mission until you receive further orders.  At the very least, the behavior I describe should be an Optional setting through the remote, or a dip switch on the circuit board.  It would solve a lot of grousing I see on these forums!

Ted, operating under that theory is more dangerous, because if your last command was go fast, and you lose signal, you can't slow down for that curve at the edge of the layout, and there goes your Visionline Big Boy. (worst case scenario) 

Not moving is a better default condition, don't you think? (even though it's a pita)

No.  I never run my trains fast enough to derail on curves, especially not the highly detailed models.  Most locos today have speed control.  So even if a loco uncouples from the train and keeps going, it shouldn't speed up to the point of derailing. 

And that brings me to another sore point... the gear ratios.  Most of our models are geared too tall!  You have the biggest layout I know of.  You MIGHT have a need for more than 60 mph on your long straightaways.  For the rest of us working with a couple of 4x8's, two feet per second is plenty fast.  Using a lower gear ratio would prevent damage in those instances when a command control loco DOES take off at full speed.  From reading these boards I know it happens sometimes, and the current "safety" programming doesn't seem to prevent it. 

Finally there's the option to put halt / panic buttons at strategic locations around the layout.  Cut the power and they'll stop no matter what their on-board circuitry is telling them to do.

I've been to the New Jersey Hi-Railers layout twice and saw the frustration with my own eyes.  Even our 20 x 28 club layout was sometimes plagued with stalling because of weak / lost signal.  I stand by my original recommendation: put an OPTIONAL setting in the software (or a jumper on the circuit board) to keep going at the SAME speed if you lose the signal.  Some of us would be better off, and nobody would be worse off.  My $.02.

If both locos are having the same problem in the same area perhaps your  track is out of tolerance - outer rails bent slightly inward.

Spray some WD-40 on a rag.  Wipe (rub a lot) the track in the bad section with that rag.  You might feel the rag go from dragging to slippery.  Wipe all the WD-40 off very well with a clean, dry rag:  Nothing else.  Run the conventional engine again.  Any difference? 

If your running TMCC, one track over or under another, it’s signal issues my guess. I had this issue when one of my TMCC engines ran under another TMCC engine many years ago..We solved the issue with ground plain wiring. Running a wire from the middle screw of an electrical receptical to a terminal strip. From the terminal strip we ran wires under the upper level tracks and that flattened the signal causing the problem.  Give that a try... 

If your running Conventional engines, my theory may be incorrect.  You might have issues through the turnouts? Also, maybe the uncoupler tracks? Wonder if your track is new/ used...New transformers, older transformers? Lots of things can cause poor running of our trains.  Sorry if I gave you bad information...Good luck.

I ended up  today eliminating one  uncoupling track and I put extra power and grounds in between all the switches  and it works better  I do think its a problem with the ac motor  (old school) and tight turns at this point BUT it is not bad since running the trains will be more  hands on  than  just watching and not operating..

Does your train stop near or under the metal bridge? If so, this is where to place the ground plain wire...

no  never seems to of lost signal  ... but what was strange was it ran on the upper level at any setting .. but on the lower flat section  in would not hold a steady slower speed... but now  as long as I set it to run somewhat  smooth it s ok     thanks

Sorry about your issues, however, that’s a nice layout and very interesting to look at. If you could show exactly where the slow down happens, we could be of more help. 

Did you ever put a level on your track?  I'm willing to bet the track is also climbing at that point.  AC-motored locos are pretty sensitive to loads and grades.

I will check  cant  be that far off but I could be wrong I'll check   .... the bench work was level  see my previous posts on  new attic layout

Sorry if I missed it, but just want to make sure you are running a 14ga ground bus wire around your layout also, with drops every so often. If your switches have fiber pins in some of the outside rails, you possibly are not sending the return current back to the transformer through both outside rails from all areas between switches. As you know, return path is as important has the hot path.