Lame Remotes DCS and Legacy?

What fun is a touch screen for running trains? Might as well just have the trains run by themselves. I'm perfectly happy with the train remotes with whistle,throttle and bell controls, its more engaging that way.

While the iPad seems to be popular I think it would be pretty awesome to have an iPad app that could monitor our Lionel engines and have like a roster with all the engines listed on the screen that would show how many hours the have been run, mileage,smoke fluid level,maintaince and position on the layout. Also maybe have the iPad be interactive with your layout such as lighting control of our buildings, and streets then have it control switches and signals. That would be alot but I would enjoy something like that but the only thing I wouldn't want it to do would be to operate the trains I like the cab 2 for that. Probably never happen but it's nice to dream.

Hi Bill, this topic reminds me of one of my electronics teachers in high schools response to a classmates question about how far TV technology will go. He said, " technology will always advance with peoples wonts and needs. What is futuristic today will be antiquated in a few years." You have to remember that when he said this in 1965 the Sony Trinatron CRT was still ten years into the future. The flat screen TV was something only Popular Mechanics spoke of and watching the landing on the moon was still a politicians pipe dream.
This and more was on the horizon as we in our pot induced stupor where trying to comtemplate the six mega Hz broadcast band width.

MTH DCS is no way 2002 tech. It is capable of doing far more then what it is already offering to the toy train world. DCS is a two way software drive system that can be modernized with a down lode. Lonel's system is already capable of running trains from a cell phone. It's the hardware issues that is holding that product up.
As for DCS, that will be running on thought control in less the ten years. That technology may not be available to the toy train world for a time longer. But, it could be marketed by MTH for military and medical use if they so chose to pursue that business model.

The toy train world technologies are far more advanced then many of us give them cerdit for. In fact when one is fortunate enough to meet those responsible for the brain work we should pat them on the back and say job well done.

I am curious... what specifically about them makes them seem "so... 2002" to you? Too many buttons and knobs?

If so, I sympathize with your interest in a simpler, more streamlined remote control, but the DCS Remote and the CAB-2 are for serious train buffs who want and need access to lots of bells and whistles. For most of these folks, using a smartphone would be novelty at best, not a serious substitute.

In any case, capacitive touch is not always the best choice in every circumstance. Physical buttons do offer greater tactile and haptic feedback and can be easier to use without looking.

I do think Lionel needs a simplified TMCC remote for kids and newbies. The MTH DCS Remote Commander is a nice start, though it falls short for most because there is no way to control track voltage, nor can you address more than one engine on a layout. (Despite it having DCS I consider it a step backwards from MTH's older infrared remote that used to come with its starter sets... which could handle both PS2 and conventional products via a transformer.)

quote:

I'm perfectly happy with the train remotes with whistle,throttle and bell controls, its more engaging that way.

Some people feel the same way about all of the remotes. They would rather run their trains the old fashioned way, aka from a transformer and control panel.

A smartphone/pad/tablet interface could be tailored for an individual users desired set of controls (aka you only want s sub set of "buttons", you pick and chose). Software like this could be used in conjunction with the existing command bases to allow for basic kid friendly remotes that allow the adult to supervise what aspects of the train/layout the child can access.

DCS was originally demo'd on a laptop when the original delivery date was missed by about two years. The only reason their is no software emulation is because MTH choses not to release it. There is a nice TMCC environment that can be run on a computer from a Windows environment (eTrain). There are TMCC software components under the JMRI development site. The control codes for TMCC were published (as well as the tech specs for the serial interface) so you could write your own in your spare time Lionel did not publish the information for Legacy specific commands so there is no software out there for Legacy control. Lionel's CTO did demo an iPhone App at one of the Legacy user meetings a while back that allowed control of a Legacy engine from the phone.

A smart phone or tablet COULD be used to control trains or an entire layout. The main roadblocks have more to do with legal wrangling than technology.

I can't speak for why MR Bill believes it is so "2002" technology, but it is. If released in 2001 the technology as it moved from drawing boards to production is certainly based on technology from the mid 90s.

You can still have your bells and whistles, but instead of pushing buttons and turning knobs, you push touch screens and slide fingers.

Modern equipment is now controlled via this type of technology. Maybe that is what Mr Bill is talking about. G

quote:

Originally posted by gg1man:
...........
As for DCS, that will be running on thought control in less the ten years. That technology may not be available to the toy train world for a time longer. But, it could be marketed by MTH for military and medical use if they so chose to pursue that business model.
............

This is not by any means a dig on MTH, but I am pretty sure none of the model train importers/manufacturers currently use manufacturing and design methods needed for these 2 fields. There's a heck of a lot more paperwork and process control involved for these 2 areas.

If MTH does have thought control in mind though, great! (there is a current Star Wars themed toy out there (can't say how good it is, haven't bought one to play with) where you "use your mind" to control a ball, but that's for a single response of moving the ball. Probably a little more involved to differentiate blowing the whistle from accelerating the engine from turning the smoke on or off)

Happy New Year!

-Dave

Your thread title and 2002ish comments give neither system a fair shot. Though neither system is what I would call cutting edge technology, both will be light years ahead of running 80's vintage HO with a transformer.

Nothing beats the feel of a Z-4000, ZW or KW handle in your hand.

Rusty

This will be a truly great hobby when more people care about trains, railroading, and individual creativity than they do about the latest technological gizmos.

Thank God for the ones still with us who do care about the essence of the model railroading hobby!

quote:

This will be a truly great hobby when more people care about trains, railroading, and individual creativity than they do about the latest technological gizmos.

Thank God for the ones still with us who do care about the essence of the model railroading hobby!

I agree Allan...I think I enjoy working on the layout, planning a new area, or figuring out the wiring as much as running the trains.

I think the hobby could do a better job of bringing in younger participants, and a broader audience, if the manufacturers offered the ABILITY to be high-tech... for MTH, it's as simple as ALLOWING individuals to develop PC/Ipad ways to control their DCS trains.

Actually, I don't want to control the trains by PC as much as I want to control the layout - switches controlled with on-screen displays, accessories, etc. My wishlist includes a set of simple modules, like an AIU, that could be connected to a PC/Ipad via wifi or network. As a matter of fact, I would be perfectly happy with a box that connects to a PC on one end, and and AIU on the other.... kind of a PCIU....a new product that would offer new options built on a customer base that's already in place.

Ed

If your after all that then you should switch (turnout) to DCC.

Casey,

Makes sense, but if there already is an AIU with wiring diagrams for most brands of switches and accessories, a "Smart TIU" (aka "PCIU") would allow many who already have AIUs to experiment with PC or iPAD layout control.

As PCIU could be as simple as 3 connections: USB port , Network port, and AIU port.

Ed

I think DCS and Legacy work just Fine for all the engines that are being made to day.
1.I like how the hand held feel in my hand.
2.they are easy to read and to work with I think.
3.And the price is still good.the more you want the more you pay for.

toy,toy trains and a choo choo

Hi Bill,

Your original "2002" comment was pretty spot on. The current MTH DCS remote was developed between 1999 and 2002. Software updates have kept it relevant, but the hardware is about ten years old. Legacy came out in December 2007 after a couples years of development. Some of the tech in Legacy is quite current and some is a legacy (pun intended ) of the TMCC system that came out in the 90's.

quote:

I think the thing I am looking for mostly is a better way to manage the switches and control more trains on one track to eliminate a collision. The current controls for DCS and Lionel seem to leave this up to the operator, which may not be ideal to let the kids rip with the trains. I guess I will need to look into setting up the track into separate loops and programming up some PICs.

I agree with you completely! I prefer running engines with the remotes because of the tactile feedback of dedicated buttons, but touch screen based UI's are perfect for switch and accessory operation.

You old fogies I would love a Ipad App. No need to develop a new remote every couple of years.

You want kids to play with trains? A old ZW with a handle isn't going to do it anymore. a App for their tablet will.

quote:

Originally posted by superwarp1:
You old fogies I would love a Ipad App. No need to develop a new remote every couple of years.

You want kids to play with trains? A old ZW with a handle isn't going to do it anymore. a App for their tablet will.

Are you kidding Gary? I want a whistle and bell cables hanging down from the ceiling of my train room, and a throttle lever coming up from the floor. Ironically the guys that play those computer train games have a desktop cab mockup. We have actual trains to play with and want to run them via computer

quote:

Originally posted by Mr.Bill:


... The current controls for DCS and Lionel seem to leave this up to the operator....

Operating our trains this way is how many of us have fun operating our layouts, and why we built them in the first place. If I didn't enjoy actually controlling everything myself, I would have taken up a different hobby or maybe spent my time playing video games instead.

Visiting kids do very well operating my layout with a minimal amount of supervision.

But, that's just my preference. The introduction of the latest technology into the hobby on a "use it if you prefer" basis is just another example of the almost infinite number of different ways model railroading can be enjoyed by different people.

Some will always be conventional operators; some like the present command systems; still others can do everything from an easy chair on their iPads or whatever comes along next. There's room for everyone in the hobby.

But, as Allan said, I hope individual creativity remains part of the process.

Jim

quote:

I think the thing I am looking for mostly is a better way to manage the switches...

... and I think that a DCS handheld controller has 2 issues:

- Multi-purpose buttons that take too many buttons and screens to get from controlling the speed of a train to changing a switch

- no feedback system to indicate what position a switch is in

A screen connected to an AIU would provide these.

I'm somewhere in the middle... conventional throttles for bells & whistles, and a screen based display (a-la-Hikel) to manage the layout.

Ed

quote:

Originally posted by Dave45681:

quote:

Originally posted by gg1man:
...........
As for DCS, that will be running on thought control in less the ten years. That technology may not be available to the toy train world for a time longer. But, it could be marketed by MTH for military and medical use if they so chose to pursue that business model.
............

This is not by any means a dig on MTH, but I am pretty sure none of the model train importers/manufacturers currently use manufacturing and design methods needed for these 2 fields. There's a heck of a lot more paperwork and process control involved for these 2 areas.

-Dave

I agree with Dave's observation as I have managed contracts and vendors in both the public (R&D) and private (healthcare) sectors including accepting delivered products and services.

At the very least, there are several "must fix" areas that toy train electronic manufacturers would have to resolve before migrating their technology to the military or medical environments.

The lack of hardened electronics would probably be the first problem to be overcome through a redesign.

"Dead on arrival" incidents, binding parts, pinched wires and all the other issues routinely mentioned in this forum would be the second problem requiring resolution through better design and a much more rigorous quality program.

Refusal to make good when problems are discovered when the product is opened would be the third problem.

Continued development of "closed system" software of a proprietary nature rather than migrating to an "open system" would be the fourth problem.

quote:

Originally posted by LORDtryzAlot:
While the iPad seems to be popular I think it would be pretty awesome to have an iPad app that could monitor our Lionel engines and have like a roster with all the engines listed on the screen that would show how many hours the have been run, mileage,smoke fluid level,maintaince and position on the layout. Also maybe have the iPad be interactive with your layout such as lighting control of our buildings, and streets then have it control switches and signals. That would be alot but I would enjoy something like that but the only thing I wouldn't want it to do would be to operate the trains I like the cab 2 for that. Probably never happen but it's nice to dream.

Kind of like OBD 1/48

"iPad" always brings to mind an adult diaper.

Seems to be some minor contradictions in some of the statements.

I don't think the original question was about how we must operate our trains, just the methods available to operate them.

There always will be the choice to use conventional means, but as Dave showed, there are very "innovative and creative" means to run trains in a modern fashion.

Give kids the opportunity to do their own programming of these controls is a sure fire way to attract them and educate them while playing.

Just like we learned repairs and stimulated our minds with track layouts with the given technology of the time.

Trains still provide a venue better that playing video games, but only if it meets the desires of the children with the current technology.

I hope to see it in the future, even if it passed me by as far as my needs.

Nothing like this prevents a hobbiest from extracting their needs from the hobby, whether it is modeling, running, building, repairing or collecting. Too each his own, but there is no way I would be using a rotary phone today, or carry an original cell phone (Brick).

G

You can't tie your software to some else's environment without having many versions of your software. For example when ipad3 comes out bugs will show up in how DCS works. So MTH will have to create a special patch for ipad3 owners. Same for all the versions of Safari running on many different smart phones.

By having their own remote they control the environment the DCS software works in.

MTH is a small company specializing I making model trains. They are not a big software company in a downtown skyscraper.

Steve

I'd rather have my current DCS with buttons rather than a touch screen. I hate our Ipad, I could just slam that thing into the wall!

To each his own.

Just try to have fun anyway you like.

I like both – old and new technologies. By new I mean computer control; I have no need for iPad control or the like.

I am in the process of building a traditional control panel with toggle switches to turn track blocks on/off and LED’s to easily see the tracks that are on; and momentary switches to actuate turnouts, or using Barry’s lingo, switch-tracks (I like that), also with LED’s to indicate the thrown position. I enjoy running the trains this way using the remotes, DCS and Legacy.

After that, I will build a computer control to run the trains fully automatically through all conceivable operations. Maybe by then DCS will have made it easier to accomplish this. (Never give up, never lose hope.)

Why the computer control?

Simple: Because when I have visitors and want to demonstrate the trains, all I can really do is run the trains around on their own tracks. Since I have a double man, this means two trains plus an “L” train and a small subway line. Even this sometimes is iffy if anything at all needs my attention and I am talking with my guests.

If I attempt any meaningful operation such as making up a train, or reversing a train using one of the reversing loops, or running an engine in or out of a shed and for a spin on the turntable, or dropping cars off at a spur for an operating accessory to load, unload, etc., I will run into problems unless I am able to fully concentrate on the operations – not on entertaining.

I did exactly that, 100% computer control, with my last HO layout, and it was a joy to show it to visitors with the trains going through all kinds of gyrations – on its own. I could talk and explain the details without having to worry about something going wrong. It ran without a hitch from 1988 until 1993 when I had to dismantle it because I needed the room for a home office for my business.

I can hardly wait to do the same (100% computer control) with my present layout, but first I have to finish (mostly) the layout itself, do the conventional control system, and then the computer control.

BTW, I have used DCS’s Record/Playback feature, and it helps, but it is limited. Mainly because it does not provide for train location detection input, for editing of the programs, or for easy storage of more than three recorded programs.

Just my 2¢
Alex

Its all in the software.
A playstation 3 controller looks exactly the same as a Playstation 1 controller... So is a PS3 an antiquated piece of junk because the controller looks like the "ancient" PS1? I hardly think so. There's a finite number of needed functions, and plenty of combinations of buttons can be used to activate them.

I can just see it now... slamming away at the E-stop on a touch screen as $2000 engines crash into each other.

quote:

You can't tie your software to some else's environment without having many versions of your software. For example when ipad3 comes out bugs will show up in how DCS works. So MTH will have to create a special patch for ipad3 owners. Same for all the versions of Safari running on many different smart phones.

Steve,

If you have a network connector (or wifi) with a command set built into the "PCIU" any computer, Ipad or other technology could communicate using the commands built into the PCIU via FTP commands. No compatibility issues because the PCIU just sends and receives commands via FTP, according to the set of commands that the PCIU has built in by MTH.

For example: to turn AIU port 1 on, you would ftp "AIU1 ON" to the PCIU. Pretty simple. a computer can do that, an Ipad can do that, etc...

There would be no MTH software. That would be provided by anyone who wants to use the PCIU for layout control, whether they be software developers or individuals.

Just thinking outside the box (TIU),

Ed

quote:

Originally posted by Ingeniero No1:
After that, I will build a computer control to run the trains fully automatically through all conceivable operations. Maybe by then DCS will have made it easier to accomplish this. (Never give up, never lose hope.)

I can hardly wait to do the same (100% computer control) with my present layout, but first I have to finish (mostly) the layout itself, do the conventional control system, and then the computer control.

BTW, I have used DCS’s Record/Playback feature, and it helps, but it is limited. Mainly because it does not provide for train location detection input, for editing of the programs, or for easy storage of more than three recorded programs.

Just my 2¢
Alex

Alex,

You should follow what forum member Skylar (Mike Hewett) has been doing. He, with the assistance of a colleague who specializes in programming, has been developing computer control of his DCS system/engines, using PICs and a custom-made interface. He's been capturing the output binary streams from the TIU and storing them into memory, and uses the GUI to repeat those commands from his PC. He's evolved it to the point where he's removed all the PICs except for those that capture the command set streams and created a new app using visual basic. Now he interfaces his PC directly to his TIU via TTL converter cable. So far it seems to work fine for him; haven't had time to try to experiment with it myself.

quote:

Originally posted by Boilermaker1:
Its all in the software.
A playstation 3 controller looks exactly the same as a Playstation 1 controller... So is a PS3 an antiquated piece of junk because the controller looks like the "ancient" PS1? I hardly think so. There's a finite number of needed functions, and plenty of combinations of buttons can be used to activate them.

I can just see it now... slamming away at the E-stop on a touch screen as $2000 engines crash into each other.

Do you really want to stick by this comment? Of course software is the driver, but interfaces change too. Touch screens are here until newer technology replaces them. Look at the computer games that record body motion and don't even use a controller. Certainly some interfaces are better as buttons and levers. Not because of preference but because of function.

This is not meant to be about preference only. Next we will hear my PW is better than your Modern engine.

With a touch screen a hold, is different then a sweep, which is different then a touch. Can't do all of that with a button. G

quote:

Originally posted by eddiem:

quote:

You can't tie your software to some else's environment without having many versions of your software. For example when ipad3 comes out bugs will show up in how DCS works. So MTH will have to create a special patch for ipad3 owners. Same for all the versions of Safari running on many different smart phones.

Steve,

No compatibility issues because the PCIU just sends and receives commands via FTP

Yes but then the FTP software gets upgraded and now it doesn't send the commands right anymore. So the user pics up the phone and calls MTH. MTH is not in the software business. I would rather have them filling my parts orders and improving quality control.

Steve

Meh. I use computers all day at work. I stare at one monitor after another for hours and hours. When I get in the train room I don't want to stare at another one! Maybe this is why I'm still running TMCC instead of Legacy?

But my old TMCC CAB-1 is finally showing signs of wearing out, so I'll have to make that leap sooner rather than later.

I also prefer good old fashioned Lionel O-22 switch controllers placed around the layout, so maybe I'm just behind the times. My cell-phone is so old that it has a rotary dial. It's not that I don't know about the new technologies out there. I do "live" AT&T ads for their latest and greatest everyday, but don't own any of them.

Perhaps there's a bit of curmudgeonly "anti-tech" residing in my soul. Might be why my sailboat designed in 1914, has no GPS and no Loran, just a chart and a compass and an auxiliary motor consisting of two varnished 7' spruce oars.

Regarding collision avoidance technologies: Neil Young and Jon Z. have been hinting at this for quite a while.

Jon

quote:

I use computers all day at work. I stare at one monitor after another for hours and hours. When I get in the train room I don't want to stare at another one!

Ditto for me! Technology is certainly great, but I don't intend to become a slave to it as so many seem to be doing these days. Technology is definitely not the be-all and end-all when it comes to enjoying a creative and relaxing hobby. One good read of the tech-related forums here should be enough to convince anyone of that.

quote:

Originally posted by Allan Miller:

quote:

I use computers all day at work. I stare at one monitor after another for hours and hours. When I get in the train room I don't want to stare at another one!

Ditto for me! Technology is certainly great, but I don't intend to become a slave to it as so many seem to be doing these days. Technology is definitely not the be-all and end-all when it comes to enjoying a creative and relaxing hobby. One good read of the tech-related forums here should be enough to convince anyone of that.

Indeed. Some folks seem to be more enamored with poking around on a screen that observing the world around them. Pretty soon, they'll be wanting apps to run their apps.

I wonder how long before they station cameras all around their layouts so they can see the train run on their i-whatevers rather than looking at it on the layout.

Rusty

First off I don't have an iPad and don't want one either, so running trains off one is not anything I'd want. For those younger folks that want to think we are all just a bunch of old geezers behind the times, I have a computer engineering degree, so am not one of the older folks that are technology challenged . My cell phone is the latest Blackberry, and I do check emails on it at times when traveling, but the little screen and small buttons are not better then a laptop, just smaller. I enjoy the hands on experience of my DCS and Legacy remotes, and don't want to go to trying to hit a little square on a screen with my man sized fingers. Innovation is a good thing, but only if it improves, not just make it different. We certainly do NOT need the technology of our hobby improving like they have improved on the simple light bulb in today's world. Remember when you walked into a room at night and flipped a switch and you got light? Now with the mercury filled, need a HazMat team to come into your home if you drop and break one, you get some light when you flip a switch, come back in 5 minutes and you can see, we don't need that kind of improved technology in our hobby.

quote:

Originally posted by VaGolfer1950:
"My cell phone is the latest Blackberry"

LOL Blackberry, I remember those...

..Gromet

quote:

LOL Blackberry, I remember those...

LMAO! Did you have an app that thought that up lol.

I think there are advantages to both ways of doing things. I don't necessarily need computer control for my layout but there are things that could be done much better with computer control. Computers are great for storing and retrieving data so an app that would control switching would be something I would be interested in. Being able to name, make, edit and store an unlimited number of routes would be of value. Also working on my layout involves a number of different things to do. To me the journey is as much or more fun than the end result. I like the idea of a GUI for the switches. At my age it is easy to forget the switch numbers when needed in a flash. I have written several programs professionally so writing an app like this is intriguing to me. A custom button set on the legacy remote could interface with the app and run several of the route from the remote similar to how customizable keyboard buttons work.
Ron