Layout wiring help

Big Mike,

   Hope all is well with the construction of the new Train Room!   As tot he wiring for DCS, sense you are building a new layout Build your layout in Blocks, no more than 10-13 Track joins per each block, no matter what track you are using.  I know you are a visual learner so if you have the OGR video Guide to DCS, watch the Section on DCS wiring of layouts.  

I use MTH Terminal Blocks and run wiring to the different parts of the layout, this is not hard Mike, it does take more wire than running in a Buss type wiring set up however.  I use good 14 gauge Stranded wire with the Lionel Type Connecting mini line and slide on connectors for my FasTrack.  Many people solder their 14 Gauge wire right to their Track, in fact if you do not have FasTrack, I would solder my connections, no need for doing it with FT however.  

IMO it's important to build with the 10 - 13 Track join engineering per each block when wiring for DCS than most anything else.   If you build in this manner you will be running the DCS 10 Track signal you want to achieve.

Further if you in the future you are going to add Legacy to your DCS layout, I would, put single Legacy drops on the opposite outside rail from your DCS wiring as you build your layout.  This makes it real easy to add Legacy in the future.

Mike wiring is not tough, just time consuming.  I also recommend you test as you build your layout.  

If you need more detailed help, drop me some e-mial or call me you have my phone number.

PCRR/Dave

Here is a photo of use of the MTH terminal blocks he is talking about.  I also have what was called the "magic lamps" installed which helped the signal in the early days of DCS but as I understand it are no longer needed with later issues of DCS equipment.

Dennis

mike g. posted:

 I have read Barry's book and am still lost on Star wiring as how it would look for an around the room layout.

any help would be great!

Just as an example, on the inner loop the upper and lower straights are a block each (#1 and #3) with insulated center rails which then makes the ends, curves and short straights, blocks #2 and #4. If you ran the pair of wires from Fixed #2 to a terminal block with Plus and common from there you would just run a pair of wires to each block.  You'd have two wires into the blocks and eight out of them. We did not use the MTH style pieces because the terminals are small, we purchased the larger black ones where you add the metal jumper strips.

Dennis,

 In the new Train Room I did have to install one (MML) Marty's Magic Light in my 14' Tunnel/Bar, even with the 6.1 upgrade MartyE graciously did for me.  The way Mike's lay out is in the open, I doubt he needs the magic lights any more.  They do still work however.

There are no MML on the over head Layout what so ever, and the room is 29' X 18' or 16' depending on what part of the room you are measuring.

Real nice clean job on the MTH Terminal Blocks buddy!  I really like it.

PCRR/Dave

Thanks everyone, I know there is going to be more questions. but here is the first one that comes to mind. If I fallow you right I can run multi blocks off of one MTH Terminal block?

Up to a point Mike. (We have discovered some locos are more finicky than others no matter what we do!;-)

BobbyD,

   For this reason I did not get into that kind wiring with Mike, it will definitely depend on his P2/P3 individual engines.  I tell the guys I am helping to try to avoid it if possible.

In reality if I were Mike I would pick up at least another old ZW Transformer, another Z4K would be really nice, maybe a used one at a decent cost.

PCRR/Dave

OK So I took Daves advice and watched the wiring for DCS again. The block thing kinda makes since but now I am faced with another brain fart. Power districting, I only have 1 MTH Z4000 that I had planned on for track power. From the video it doesn't sound like enough! Someone please tell me I am wrong! LOL

Just remember Mike, electrical work is simple.  That's why electricians do it.  Black to black, white to white and payday is Friday.....LOL  

Dave a Z4000, will have to wait. The last one I bought used and it was still $400.

Mike, each handle of your Z-4000 should easily power a loop, especially with two freight trains. Passenger cars with incandescent light bulbs eat the most power!

I have one passenger train that will have 9 lighted cars. But I am boing to switch them out to LED's.

BobbyD posted:

Mike, each handle of your Z-4000 should easily power a loop, especially with two freight trains. Passenger cars with incandescent light bulbs eat the most power!

So if I understand you right I would do one handle to fixed 1 and the other to fixed 2 on the TIU?

Mike, I run my whole layout with just 2 Postwar ZWs.  If you look at my terminal blocks photo above, the left one with the black power wires runs my outer main line, and the right one with the blue power wires runs my inner main line and yard sidings.  Each one of those wires is a power section, out with the black or blue wire, and back with a corresponding white (common) wire.  Takes a lot of wire and it is a good idea to use different colors.  When I built my layout I bought several 500' reels of #14 wire from Home Depot.  My accessories are powered by an outdoor light transformer a la Jim Barrett some years back.

Dennis

Mike,

   Look around when you are ready, most times I can pick up a used Z4K for around $250.00 -$275.00.  I Never purchase a used Z4K in the $400.00 range.  There is a gentlemen right here on the OGR sale board, that wanted to sell me a Z4K for $275.00 I offered him $250.00, he said no he needed $275.00, I passed on the purchase.

Remember like Dennis says the old ZW's are still great Transformers and work well with DCS and Legacy also.  Pick one up from O Gauge Jim right here on the OGR, he does great work rebuilding ZW's and KW's also, and sells ar a very reasonable cost for a completely rebuild Transformer.  I have 2 of his rebuilds, a ZW and a KW, work like a million bucks.

PCRR/Dave

Pine Creek Railroad posted:

Mike,

   Look around when you are ready, most times I can pick up a used Z4K for around $250.00 -$275.00.  I Never purchase a used Z4K in the $400.00 range.  There is a gentlemen right here on the OGR sale board, that wanted to sell me a Z4K for $275.00 I offered him $250.00, he said no he needed $275.00, I passed on the purchase.

PCRR/Dave

Guess I got suckered! Oh well I have it now, and that's all the matters! LOL

Mike,

   No you did not get stuck, you payed the going rate, here in the Pittsburgh, Pa area I can usually pick up really great deals on Transformers, especially at the Train Shows.  If I were you to keep the cost down, I would pick up a rebuilt ZW from Jim, they last many life times.

PCRR/Dave

mike g. posted:

BobbyD posted:

Mike, each handle of your Z-4000 should easily power a loop, especially with two freight trains. Passenger cars with incandescent light bulbs eat the most power!

So if I understand you right I would do one handle to fixed 1 and the other to fixed 2 on the TIU?

 

That should work fine. Layout space is about 12 X 27? And you can power the TIU thru fixed voltage. That MTH plug in for the Z is a great piece.

Mike- I will be of little help to you buddy. I'm a conventional guy for now. DCS, etc will have to wait for my next layout. From my perspective the advice from Dave and the others is sound.

BobbyD posted:

mike g. posted:

BobbyD posted:

Mike, each handle of your Z-4000 should easily power a loop, especially with two freight trains. Passenger cars with incandescent light bulbs eat the most power!

So if I understand you right I would do one handle to fixed 1 and the other to fixed 2 on the TIU?

 

That should work fine. Layout space is about 12 X 27? And you can power the TIU thru fixed voltage. That MTH plug in for the Z is a great piece.

 

Bobby, what is the MTH plug in for the z do?

mike g. posted:

Bobby, what is the MTH plug in for the z do?

I thought you were referring to this in an earlier post Mike. With the DCS remote you don't need the set version. Remote Commander Receiver 40-4002,

https://mthtrains.com/40-4001

Bobby I have the z4000 receiver number MTH 40-4002

Mike, Looks like you got quite a bit of action!!  I just got home and will have to read through what everyone wrote.  I'll be back on line tomorrow!

Between roofing, I should be here off and on also!

A lot of good advice above.  Since I'm a visual learning type, I need drawings to help me understand how this might work.  You have two loops, the inside loop has the reverse tracks and the outside loop has the yard.  Each handle of the Z-4000 should have enough power for each loop and the trains you want to run.  The below diagram is something that might help you, and others may chime in with better ideas.

I ran the Z-4000 power through the fixed channels of the TIU for command control.  You could run conventional by using the Z-4000's handles to adjust power.

If you want to use the handheld for conventional control, you need to route the wires through the variable channels.  Just set the Z-4000 at 18 volts for command operation.

The diagram shows a Legacy base attached to the TIU.  This is an easy add if you ever want to add Legacy.

Here is an older schematic of my power wiring for the layout I'm building.  I'm planning on LCS control of the layout so that is why all the Lionel stuff.  By drawing this out, I can see what I need.

I am re-doing it to replace the TMCC stuff with Legacy LCS stuff and to eliminated the relays and some PH180s.

Thanks Ron! That is some great stuff there. By drawing it out like that it makes it so much easier for me to understand! It doesn't look that hard now. LOL

So I know it doesn't show in my layout drawing, but up near the top just to the right of the bridge I want to put in a cross over. Does that change anything?

No problem with a crossover; just insulate the center rail between the two switches.  You may want to have two crossovers to allow going from one loop to the other in either direction.

My layout is wired just like CapPilot's drawing above (the simpler one ) and everything has worked very well for almost 4 years now. I also added Legacy just as he shows on the drawing. If you follow that you will be just fine.

Only problems I have had to date were Operator Error...and I was the Operator!  

Thanks again Ron, I am looking at getting a double crossover premade!

RTR, Ron sure made it looks simple! But then again I haven't got there yet! LOL

Ron's top drawing should do the trick for your layout, Mike!    I need to look at a drawing too.  That is one reason why I have trouble working in telecommunications any more.  We used to draw with a pencil, tee square, and triangle.  Now everything is just information put into a database.  Sure it is searchable, and you don't have to make sure the same change is made in multiple places, but I find it much too abstract for my thinking!  Maybe that is why they like to push us old guys out before we reach social security age.  

Mark, that and they don't want to pay a big separation package! LOL

Mike, Oh, they did pay me a separation package in 2015, I wouldn't say it was big.  They also are paying ma a small pension since then.  They are making up for lost ground by paying me less than going rate as a contractor since then.  Very twisted logic, but you can bet they have it all figured out, to beat a low level engineer like me.  

CapP,

  Mike has the Side Receiver for this Z4K, he can run all Conventional engines via his DCS HHRC, and they will run fantastically smooth using this control method.

Mike G,

   Looks like things are well in hand with the advise you got you should have little problem wiring your layout!

PCRR/Dave