Legacy 844 vs Legacy ATSF Northern Sound

Marty

I have both of them and would agree with your assessment. When I first got the 3751, the first thing I noticed was how 'average" the sound was and I was a bit disappointed.

Could it be the difference lies in the prototypes and Lionel has accurately reproduced both? Would be interesting to hear from someone who has heard both live and in person (not on youtube).

Or could it be that Lionel overachieved on the 844 and spoiled us. Has any other Legacy steamer matched the 844 in richness of sound?

The sound Lionel put in the N&W J is one of the best Lionel has ever produced.

Marty, while I thought the 844 had great sounds, the UP Challenger blows it away. I have never heard the northern, but I did notice the legacy berk was below par. I guess it is hit or miss.

I have noticed the same thing with the Legacy engines that are run on our clubs modular layout , the sounds on the pre Legacy engines are much bolder,louder. As an example at the Lionel Open house last weekend where our club was set-up we were running a Lionel K4 that was from around 2000, 2001 and one of our members commented that the sounds from that engine made the Legacy engines sound quiet. Does Lionel still use the "Fatboy" speakers?  

I had the 844 and the sound was, indeed, amazing.

I have both SF Northerns and, while the sounds are not as good as the 844, the sounds are truly excellent. Watch my YouTube videos and listen.

The recent Milwaukee Road S-3 has fabulous sound Quality.

The sound standard is the Vision Challenger.

Let's see if Lionel wants to maintain or improve their standards.

Lack of Vision models lately makes comparison very difficult.

Scrappy

My concern is whether I have an issue or is that "just the way it is"? Sounds like the latter.

I agree there are a lot of engines that just rock.  I think my Pennsy Texas Class sounds outstanding although again just not as loud as the 844 but somewhat better than the 3751.

The 844 drowns out the 3751.  I'm hoping the scale turbine I ordered is a hit and not a miss.

Marty,

You're not going to get chuffing but, hopefully, a great whistle.

I am interested to hear the turbine whoosh.

Scrappy

Elliot.

Yep understand about the chuff and turbines, I just hope the volume and fidelity is there.  Looking forward to this one as I have been asking for it for some time.

>>>Do I have a sound system issue or has Lionel really limited their sound volume and fidelity?<<

Not sure if you're comparing whistle or overall engine steam sounds but IMO, the newer electronics in the #3751 gives it the edge overall. Love the creaking metal at start up & better drift sounds, let alone steam whistle and idle smoke not available on the #844.

True, the big powerful whistle on the #844 blows the smaller SF steamer away but the SF's whistle is natural & pleasant with far less noticable fake amplication similar to the overamplified VL Challenger. Having said that, sounds on #261/#265/#267 is music to my ears. It blows all other Lionel steam off the tracks. LOL

Joe 

I have both, one on the way and both IMO my opinion are outstanding, Deep chuff and a great whistle. The others I have like the J is just incredible. It has more creaking, steam hiss, etc. and other sounds then previous legacy models. It is the newest legacy engine I have.

Other models I have like the EM1, mikado,  mallet and the UP 9000 are also outstanding. 

Maybe I am not as discerning as some of you guys when it comes to sound. But I buy on sound quality and so far I have never been disappointed.

I have the Legacy 844 and the TMCC version of the 3751 Northern. They both sound awesome, but the 844 does sound a bit better IMO. However, I have seen the real 844 and 3751 in person and I would have to say they do sound different, and I like the 844 a little better. It just seems to have a deeper, richer sound to it in person.

Just curious, but does anyone have the Legacy Mohawk that came out earlier this year. How does that compare to some of the others being discussed here. Hit or miss?

I agree something happened at Lionel... the generic sounds and whistles just don't cut it.

The 844 has amazing sound, the last legacy non vision line engines that I bought with this "In your face" sound was the NYC F12e 4-6-0 and S3 Milwaulkee Northern, Just fantastic.

I would imagine it won't sound too much differnt than the last scale version.  After all there was only one real one.

Laidoff brings up a very good point, concerning the REAL differences in the sounds of the REAL 3751 vs. the 844:

1) AT&SF #3751 is a Baldwin product, with single exhaust nozzle & stack. She was also rebuilt & upgraded extensively by the Santa Fe in their own shops.

2) UP #844 is an Alco product, with two exhaust nozzles & stacks. Originally built as a coal burner and modified to an oil burner by the UP.

3) The AT&SF #3751 tends to have a much "crisper/sharper" sounding exhast, due to her single stack arrangement.

4) The UP #844 tends to have a "deeper", or "hollow/echoing" sounding exhaust, due to her twin stack arrangement.

5) Obviously the whistles are different. 

I get all of the "technical prototypical reasons" that they would sound different but there is a distinct difference in volume and fidelity between the 2.

Sorry, but since I don't model anything Santa Fe, plus I tend to turn the volume down on everything when operating on the home layout, I can't be of any further help.

I appreciate the input for sure.  Thanks!

I believe that Hot Water has the correct answer to this question. If Lionel is modeling the "real thing", then the 844 would be more pronounced as it appears to be, at least to me.

I did enjoy reading Hot Water's technical assessment.

Marty, does your northern have the 3rd speaker in the boiler? if so, the tether which connects it to the tender may be the problem, it was with my challenger.

I can tell you that the Legacy model of the UP FEF-3 locomotives does NOT have an "extra speaker in the boiler"!

No speaker in the boiler.  Just the tender.  Not sure how many.  I'll have to take a closer look this weekend.

Maybe size does matter...

In the 3751 there are (2) Baby Fatboys

In the 844 there is one Fatboy...

So perhaps the Baby Fatboys just do not have the fidelity.  The volume could be just how they are driving the 2 speakers.

I'll most likely take a look inside the tender and see what the scoop is.  I just feel that it should sound better.

How close in size are the babys compared to the full Fatboy speaker? Can't tell by the photos, maybe you could substitute?

I brought this subject up several months ago and got some rather silly responses from some of the forumites.

There were two responses one from MR and the other from Jon Z.

MR said the sound levels were purposely lowered to meet a federal mandate that children's toys had to have a maximum sound level.  However I responded that this did not apply to toys intended for those 14 years of age and over. The scale engines are marked so on the boxes. Then MR replied that it applied because starter sets were intended for 8 years and up.

Since I did not buy that bunk answer Jon Z replied that they lowered the volume of the engines to have better and more prototypical sounds.

So, take your pick of explanation.

Frankly I don't believe either answer.

If anyone has done a comparison, I'd be curious to know if there's a difference in sound quality between the older Legacy GS4 and the new Legacy GS2. I'd think that would be a fairly good "apples to apples" comparison to see if there have been recent changes (assuming Lionel used the GS4 4449 recording as the basis for the GS2 whistle, which seems reasonable).

I was surprised to use my iPad app for measuring sound levels and found both whistles measure approx 93db fom approx 8" away. 

I plan on doing some additional reading this weekend. 

Bob

Will do. Was going to take a look inside anyways. Thanks. 

Hi Marty,

Can't believe I missed this great thread. I just skimmed through this discussion quick, so please be patient with me if I missed anything. I have both of these engines, and I think they sound totally different and the 844 does have a deeper more robust sound. I also agree with you the sound is lower in the 3751 and 3759. This was also driving me a bit crazy when I bought these engines a while back. IMO I think that's just the way they are,I'm not sure it's possible, but if we installed regular Fat boy speakers, I think it will sound much better, Just my opinion. I'm always up for a challenge so I just might give it a shot

Marty great thread

Thanks,

Alex

Marty,

The two Baby Fatboy speakers in the 3751, as you pictured earlier, are 2W 16 ohm speakers, whereas the Fatboy is a 1W 8 ohm speaker..  To replace the two 
Baby Fatboys with two Fatboy speakers, each 1W 8 ohm, might overload a board.  I would guess, however, that you could replace the two Baby Fatboys with a single 8 ohm Fatboy.  A single Fatboy might give you the fidelity for which you are looking.

George

Opened it up and the speakers were connected and the speaker "cabinet" tightly secured.  I guess that's the way it is.  I'm still going to do some sound level tests this weekend just for fun.

There are 16 Ohm FAT BOY speakers too...

I have seen the 844 in action, and I do agree that the chugging and the unique bell rhythm really does stand out. A friend of mine has the Santa Fe 3751 and by comparison, the chugging is really toned down as is the other sounds. So yes, the 844 is much better in comparison, and yes Lionel has not been hitting a downhill dip in terms of sound quality, but not all the time.

The sounds on the Legacy Crescent Limited are above average to me personally, especially compared to the Mallets, Blue Comet, K-4's, Mikados and Alton. I will say it doesn't match the richness of my Legacy SP GS-4 Daylight, however.

Good question for santa fe fan Jon Z.

Jim Sandman,

Yes, there are 16 ohm 1W Fatboys (6938079T23).  They come as a pair harnessed together, and would probably be a good replacement for the Baby Fatboys in the 3751.

The 16 ohm 2W speakers you cited above are Baby Fatboys, as you point out, and I'm not sure much would be gained by that switch-out.  Perhaps more volume but not the fidelity Marty is looking for.  Of course, they are about half the cost of the Fatboys.

I have the 3759 and have been very pleased with the sound, otherwise I would try to switch out the speakers with the 16 ohm Fatboys..

George

Ran my 3751 today and the chuffs are deep and whistle is very nice. Also ran my UP FEF and yes the chuffs are deep and the whistle is very nice. I like them both and sound quality is top notch IMO.

The just released J from a month or two ago has more background sounds like creaking, steam hiss, etc. 

I would also like to see Lionel go back to road specific announcements with the crew talk. Too much of the same with the past releases.