Legacy 844 vs Legacy ATSF Northern Sound

GNK,

 

The ones listed below are indeed FAT Boys and not Baby Fat Boys (I just fixed my previous post! - I had listed the baby ones initially!)

 

6308056536

SPEAKER / 16 OHM 1.0W / 50MM ROUND / FAT BOY

Perhaps it's just my perception.  Maybe it is truly the sound differences in the engines.  I actually like the sound of the 3751...until I fire up the 844.  As I said, it seems louder (although my sound level test seems to counter that) and everything on the 844 has a better low end.

       
       



Jim you're 100 percent correct
This is exactly what I was thinking



Thanks,
Alex

I'm not sure they'll fit. 

I just think it all comes down to if it sounds good or bad to your ears then that is it. What sounds great to me may not sound great to you. 

 

I like legacy sounds and so for the most part they have been incredible.

I have a Lionel Tmcc Mohawk, the tender is much smaller than the Santa Fe tender

and it has the full size Fat Boy in it. I have full size Fat boy speakers and I will give it a try in a few days and let you know. I think this can be done.

 

Thanks,

Alex

We had a family of eight visiting our layout today (grandparents, parents, and four children in ages ranging from 9-16) and it was the perfect opportunity to do a side by side audio test with very unbiased visitors. The sounds of the 844 won hands down, although they liked them both.

 

Very unscientific results, but none the less, to them the best sounds are in the ears of the beholder.

Well don't forget that the real 844 sounds completely different than the real 3751. As I stated previously, when you hear them both, live in person, most people will like the 844 better. So it only seems natural that people will like the 844 better in scale models, whether it's O or HO.

 

You can't say one is better, or one is great, when the two you are comparing are different anyway. That comes down to matter of opinion based on your particular taste.

I have NP 0-8-0 with a Fatboy in it. HOLY cow it has some bass for a small steamer!

MARTY,

  I have both and as you stated the FEF is better then the Santa Fe 3751.  I was the one that brought the Black FEF to the very first LUG meeting and thought WOW Lionel really hit the nail on the head with this engine.  Also lots o people at that first meeting were impressed with the sounds of the FEF and the running of that engine.  I had to re up all my engines in the base and cab2 recently because I had upgraded to Legacy 1.52, lost them in the process don't know how but did, anyway after re entering the FEF the next engine was the Santa Fe and WOW what a big difference.  I had to put the FEF back on the track to hear it again.  The FEF is just more deeper and louder then the SF and holds that baretone sound all around the layout.  Love it.

 

laz57

To me the Lionel Legacy 844 has one of the best sounds I've every heard, It's just about my favorite engine. Simply incredible. As said above the Santa Fe 3751 and 3759 also have incredible sound, the only thing about them is the sound is low. Just like Marty this has been bothering me too. I'm going to replace the baby Fat Boys with full size Fat boys ( of course the OHMS will be equal ) and I'm very confident it will  be louder with a more robust sound. I will do a before video and a after video. I have a lot of projects right now, I should be able to complete this by the end of the week.

 

Thanks,

Alex

Since it has been established by more than one poster, that the REAL UP 844 and AT&SF 3751 do actually sound different from each other, after anyone of you FINALLY "fix" your models of the Lionel AT&SF 3751, is someone going to contact the 3751 group and see if they can "fix" the REAL one's sound issues?  

I think if you would pay attention to what has actually been said, the "fix" is about VOLUME!!

Just like Marty, I'm only 100 percent concerned about the volume nothing else

 

 

 

 

Thanks,

Alex

The 3751 sound level to me is just as loud as most others with the exception of the new J which is extremely loud and I have to turn it down. It is the loudest I have ever heard from a legacy locomotive. 

 

Alex, Marty,

 

Do you really think the the 3751 is low compared to other legacy locomotives? I'm going to test the other legacy locomotives i have today and I will get back to you guys. It may not be scientific but it will give me a basis point on sound level of my other legacy locomotives. 

David

 

The 3751 does sound lower in volume and fidelity.  Even the dreaded crew talk/tower comm is not a loud and clear. 

 

I get the whole "the engines sound different" concept.  They are after all different steam engines and based on the reasons my good friend Hot Water pointed out.  That being said, there are components of both that are the same and do not sound the same volume level or range.

Maybe you missed the post by Marty E, that stated that the sound volumes where the same when measured with a sound level device (his phone), and the Db was pretty much the same for both models.

Nope, didn't miss that one. In spite of that he and some others (not everyone) still perceive the volume is lower and wish to investigate that further. Still has nothing to do with the real ones!

You cannot measure the impedance rating of a speaker with an ohmmeter. Ohmmeters can only measure the RESISTANCE of a component. It cannot measure the IMPEDANCE of a component, and that is what we are talking about when we say a speaker is an "8 ohm" or a "16 ohm" speaker. 

 

Even though it is measured in ohms, Impedance is not the same as Resistance.

OK here are some readings with each engine measure independently, 8" away from the tender.

 

3751

• Idle 74db
• Chuff 88db
• Whistle 93db
• Bell 87db
• Crew Talk/ Tower Comm 87db

 

844

• Idle 80db
• Chuff 97db
• Whistle 97db
• Bell 88db
• Crew Talk/ Tower Comm 96db

Out of all of these, the Crew Talk and Tower Comm are probably the most telling.  These to levels should be the same.  But it seems that over all, the 844 is a louder engine.

Hi Marty,

 

I took a video today of the 3759 with the original speakers in it, then I took it to the work bench and removed the speakers, I though I had a set of regular Fat Boy speakers but I didn't. So I ordered a pair and should have them in a few days. As soon as I get them I will do a quick install, and take a video and post the before and after video here and will see how much louder it is.

 

Thanks,

Alex

In laymen's terms, my 3751 sound sucks.  No more Lionel till I hear it first.

Marty,

As usual I find myself agreeing with you on all counts.

 

I own the Legacy GS-4, the 3751 and the Legacy GS-2 (I wish I had the 844).  The older GS-4 has a richer fuller sound than both the newer engines.  I feel the 3751 and the GS-2 have more sound effects (various creaking and hissing sounds) which I appreciate but they both lack the "presence" of the GS-4.  Additionally, my GS-2 speakers crackle and hiss and high volume.  So much so, that I requested replacement speakers from Lionel.

 

I am interested in the results of Alex's experiment.  If there is adequate room in the tender I wonder why Lionel would switch from the larger fatboy speakers 6308056536 SPEAKER / 16 OHM 1.0W / 50MM ROUND / FAT BOY, to smaller speakers,

6911209536

SPEAKER / 16 OHM 2.0W / 40MM ROUND / BABY FAT BOY

 

To the point you made about "bulleying" on this forum, I am also in complete agreement.  I purchased a Premium Membership to the support this forum.  I will not be renewing that membership.  When I initially came into this hobby I thought this forum was a great resource.  Now, having spent some time on it, I am less impressed.  There are a few "bullies" that come across as crotchety, sarcastic,  know-it-alls, and they have soured me to this forum.  I play with and learn about trains to have fun but this forum is too negative for my tastes.  Guys like you are few and far between, and that is too bad. 

 

BTW, it was nice to meet you at the Lionel Open House.  I said it to you there and I will say it again, you are one of the good guys that elevates this forum beyond sarcasm and grandstanding. 

 

If you sign off of this forum please email me which if any forums you may participate in the future.

 

thanks

I am interested in the results of Alex's experiment.  If there is adequate room in the tender I wonder why Lionel would switch from the larger fatboy speakers 6308056536 SPEAKER / 16 OHM 1.0W / 50MM ROUND / FAT BOY, to smaller speakers,

6911209536

SPEAKER / 16 OHM 2.0W / 40MM ROUND / BABY FAT BOY

 

Hi Kevin, there's definitely room for the regular Fat Boy speakers in this tender. I'm also quite surprised that Lionel didn't put them in this engine. I have a Lionel Tmcc NYC Mohawk and the tender is a bit smaller than the Santa Fe, this Mohawk has the full size Fat Boy installed. I will post before and after videos by the end of the week.

I'm quite sure the sound will be more robust and louder.  Take a look at the two photos below, notice how large the chassis is in the first photo compared to the size of the original baby Fat Boys. These baby Fat boys almost look like the speakers that are installed in there diesel engines. IMO these are way to small for a large scale steamer.

 

Thanks,

Alex

 

 

 

 

Thanks for this discussion. I asked several days ago if someone could compare the GS-4 and the GS-2, because of their similarities. Glad to have this information. A bit disconcerting - one would think the sound would be improved with the GS-2, if anything. I'd certainly appreciate it if you'd let us know whether those replacement speakers make a difference. That will be interesting.

Alex

 

Would you have to ditch the "speaker cabinet" to make the Fatboys fit?  I would assume so.  Looking forward to your results.

Hi Marty,

 

Yes the original speaker enclosure is way to small, to fit over the full size Fat Boys.

Once I have the full size Fat Boys in, I will test it just with the tender shell and no enclosure's. Lionel sells the full size speaker enclosure's, and I also have a set. So I will test it both ways. I will post video's each with just the tender shell on and also with the enclosure's and the shell on.

 

Thanks,

Alex

Cool.

 

Thanks!

Marty, do you own one of the MR s3's? Those have 2 baby fat boys but( from what I can tell on video) they seem to have robust sound.

 

If you do, I would be curious what the db levels would be.

 

I wonder if the sound files/recordings themselves could be lacking on certain models?

Hi Rick

 

You bring up a very good point here, I wonder too if the sound files could be lacking.

 

I just went and took my MR S-3 tender to the work bench and took a quick look inside.

I found a few interesting things, first just let me say you're correct the speakers are exactly the same in both units. Take a close look at  both tender chassis below,

the Santa Fe chassis has one speaker just about blocked off by the front truck. Also the front speaker cut out is only cut out half way, and blocks half the front speaker. Now take a look at the S-3 chassis, the speakers are 100 percent in the open. This just might be why the Santa Fe is lower in sound.

 

I'm not totally sure but I think the full size Fat Boys might be able to push out more volume and get by these obstacles. What do you guys think?

 

Thanks,

Alex

 

 

 

          S-3 CHASSIS

 

 

          SANTA FE CHASSIS

          SANTA FE INSIDE CHASSIS

ideally you would want your bass speaker firing upward, away from all obstructions. bass will be effected by the grilles, wheels, track and roadbed. so I can see why the sound may be lacking. besides the fact the speakers are facing down, one of them is almost totally blocked.  my M1B and challenger have the 2 fatboys and are the best sounding engines I have along with the 844. 

I've done some experimenting with substituting fat boy speakers for the stock speakers in 3rd Rail engines, one of which had an arrangement fairly similar to the one you have found with the speaker opening largely blocked by the truck.

 

In that engine I got what I thought was a marginal improvement in the sound with deeper resonance and rather less fuzz or static than the stock speaker had but only a slight increase in volume. I think part of the reason was that the only place for the speaker was partly over the truck and so despite drilling a number of extra holes in the frame the speaker opening remained substantially obstructed.

 

Of course this was done on an engine with Railsounds 4 and the scope for improvement in sound quality just by changing the speaker may have been limited anyway.

 

However, in another thread on this forum someone reported putting a full Lionel fat boy assembly, including the tall enclosure that fits over the top of the speaker, in a 3rd Rail G-4 and getting much improved sound. I might try that; the enclosure just would not fit in the engine I worked on.

 

I think that you are right that the arrangement in the Santa Fe tender accounts for some of the lack of sound compared to other engines and I for one will be interested to know if by changing the speakers you get any significant improvement.

 

I think that you are right that the arrangement in the Santa Fe tender accounts for some of the lack of sound compared to other engines and I for one will be interested to know if by changing the speakers you get any significant improvement.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

I also am very interested in the outcome, the last time I ran the 3751 in public a few folks commented the sound was low and did I lower it on purpose, Embarrassing it was. 

Alex,

 

I opened up my 3759 tender and saw the obstruction of the front speaker as you described.  While I had it open I reversed the upper enclosure so the high end was over the front speaker.  Very subjectively, it seemed there was less volume and base.

 

But, I did wonder, if you replace the 2 Baby Fatboys in the SF tender with 2 16 ohm Fatboys, the front speaker will still be partially blocked by the grill.  So, do you think a single 8 ohm Fatboy, as used in the 844, over the unobstructed rear grill might give greater volume and fidelity?  This is assuming the sound files are not lacking, as RickO pointed out as a possibility.

 

I'm looking forward to your results.

 

George 

I have wondered about this too, not least because having one speaker directly facing an irregularly shaped metal obstruction can't do much for the sound quality. It would be easy enough to try the solo speaker option.

 

I don't know why Lionel opted for the two speaker arrangement in a steam engine. The same type of baby fat boy speakers are used in their diesels where there is a space limitation. 

Hi Guys,

 

Same here too, I was wondering the same thing.Why not just one 8 ohm full size  Fat Boy, I bet it would sound louder. Well First I'll try two 16 ohm full size Fat Boys and see what result I get, I still feel the sound will be quite louder. I'm just waiting for the speakers to arrive, should be Thursday or Friday. It will only take about 30 minutes to do the full installation.

 

Hi George,

 

I tried a few things too, I took the enclosure off completely and just used the tender shell. I actually lost more volume.

 

Thanks,

Alex

I really don't see what all the fuss is. My 3751 is as loud as any of my legacy engines except for 2 , the legacy FEF and the newest N&W J. Both of those have to be turned down To enjoy.

 

The 3751 and 3759 IMO  sound and run great, any changes to the speakers for improvement of sound or loudness will be minimal at the most. I say enjoy them the way the are because they sound great the way they are. Of course your ears may feel differently. 

 

 

 

 

Alex;

Very interesting thread.

I am happy with the sounds of my 3751 overall, but I will be very interested in your experiments with dual FatBoys compared with a single 8 ohm FatBoy.

Please keep us posted!

What a great forum this is, (a few dissidents above notwithstanding.......)

 

Rod

Just to all...

 

Don't get me wrong.  When the 3751 is running solo, it sounds fine.  I just noticed when the 844 is running at the same time there is a enough difference to make me start this thread.

Well Marty you have not done one thing that you should have and that is measure the impedance of the speakers using a digital multimeter.

 

The speaker in question is marked 8 ohms and this can be measured using a digital multimeter. Set your multimeter to measure resistance or ohms. Connect the leads to the wires on the speaker. After you get a reading multiply the reading by 1.3 and you should get a value near 8.

 

If the value is higher than 8 ohms you have a defective speaker.

 

If they test out to be 8 ohms then the issue is the way Lionel has configured the volume of the sound system as I pointed out in an earlier reply that I made to this posting.