Legacy LCS App. My thoughts. Urs?

I have downloaded the iPad app and have found it to be very nice. Easy too Add pictures of your engine fleet and very easy to add the track plan. Of course we still need to wait for the wifi connection to start running trains but from what I have seen it looks like a very interesting piece of technology. 

This discussion was held ad infinitum about the "usability" of the app. It tethers you to the IPad because you cannot control your loco functions, speed most importantly, independent of the power source. The app can be used in a fixed location so that one hand touches switches and tracks, but the other hand must control your remote or transformer.

For goodness sakes, here is the perfect example of a technology advance really being retrograde motion. It is really only useful in its fixed position. That being the case, how is it really an advance? The entire purpose of Legacy remote/DCS remote is portability to follow your train. Here, some tech savvy person, wants a tech heavy "advance" to entice someone to a better paradigm. It is really backwards.

Scrapiron

To me, the whole idea is a non-starter.  A good, solid, handle attached to the side of a big transformer worked perfectly well for controlling my toy trains back in 1953 and works just fine now.  I'm not sure this app is a good idea even for those who love all the technology - as Scher said it seems a step backwards in some ways.  I think it is an attempt to "app" a system that doesn't need an app, frankly.  But that is irrelevant to me.

While it is not all things to all people, it does do what it advertises.  Gives an additional avenue of LAYOUT control.

Lionel has been pretty up front that this is not made for running trains.  It is made for operating the layout while the remote runs the trains.  At least initially.

There is nothing to say that as customer requests and ideas come forth that more could be added.  It's the nice thing about software, it can always been added upon.

Personally I look forward to it.  I would like to see Train rosters like the engines listed now w/o pictures just a graphical representation.  

It is IMO a good start.  Once in hand it will be easy to figure out what I want it to do and not do.

I can assure you though, and this is a personal preference, I don't want to use it to run train full time.  I'd rather use the remote but giving folks the option is probably a few mouse clicks away.

Even though I  like what this app is doing or will do the handheld remote will run my trains for now. Remember this is only the beginning so lets see what comes before downing it. As for me I like it!!

I am BIG into technology - my wife and I each have our own ipad and iphone, have an Apple TV connected in each bedroom, an iMac in the kitchen, and I control my house temp remotely using a NEST thermostat!

HOWEVER, as cool as the Lionel iPad app is - I won't be using it as I really like the "hands on", tactile experience of the Legacy Controller, ZW-L, and remote switches. 

I know my grandson (9 yrs old) likes to switch the remote switches a lot - and I can't imagine him wanting to do it on the ipad. He likes "being in control" of all the handles and switches and Legacy controller.  Using the ipad will take that feeling away IMHO.

But, you never know, I might change my tune after seeing all the neat things this new technology has to offer - I will wait and see!

 Lyle

i would use it for yards (i have two) where i (or anyone else) would be in a fixed position anyway.  

The basic functions of the locomotive ARE able to be controlled by the App.  Speed, Direction, Couplers, Horn, Bell, unique dialog triggers (not even possible with Cab-2), and more on the way.  The LCS app remembers the: locomotive selection (ID), Yard/Road mode selection (Yard mode is patented), and even send TMCC or Legacy Commands as needed by reading the loco type information set in the Cab-2. 

The speed controls are so networked, the throttle setting on the iPad screen changes when you change the Cab-2 remote throttle, and conversely when you change the speed on the iPad screen, the Cab-2 updates the speed graph.

Not sure I get your understanding Scrapiron, but you can sure email me with questions anytime.  We also will update the app about the time the hardware interface ships, and the functionality will only improve.  While not for everyone, the interest has been surprising to me.  The questions we are getting, and download stats, indicate this type of technology has a use.

also, jon, i think the potential for the SensorTrack to supplant ARC functionality is huge.

This app is pretty cool.  Wish the link device was available.  No idea why people are complaining about "no ENG/TRAIN control" since it's in the app.  Hope to really play around with it over the week end.

Nice job on the App/Interface.  As much as I like the remote, most of the time I don't need/want to lug it around and it was not that easy to handle switched/accessories/routes.  We've need something like this for a long time.  The old computer interfaces needed the touch screen and it will be nice to be able to walk around with the screen.

Thanks Forrest, I am excited about the IR Sensor Track as well. 

Rudy Trubitt, our RailSounds Guru, is preparing to make and release a series of Videos to showcase the components of LCS, detailing the features of each component.  Lionel engineering is excited to present the technology to folks, direct from Dr. ZW's Labs!  Now if we could only find Dr. ZW to answer some questions

jon, here is a question:

with the app in road mode on a large layout (all mapped on the app) and with sufficient SensorTracks installed, will the app scroll the display to follow a selected engine around the layout?

i am also assuming you could have multiple iPads active at the same time, just like you can have multiple CAB-2's.

scrapiron

"It tethers you to the IPad because you cannot control your loco functions, speed most importantly, independent of the power source."

jon

"The basic functions of the locomotive ARE able to be controlled by the App."

scrappy on the ground again???  

I think the LCS is the start of a big leap forward.   However,  I would need two things for me to consider adopting LCS.

1.  An Android version.  Android outsells iOS at this point.  An Android version is a must for those of us who don't use Apple products.

2. A method to install the sensors in track other than Fastrack

If these things were available I would begin to adopt it immediately.  I think the flexibility you can get from a system such as this as it evolves will be wonderful.    I could even envision an array of tablets controlling individual areas/routes of your layout.  Total touch control of your layout.  Tablets are just going to continue to get cheaper and it may come a time that a multiple tablet control panel is cheaper than the materials to build a traditional one. 

I 100% agree with you Chris on the platform limitation.  I also use Android products and I'm not about to go out and buy an iPad, iPhone, or iAnything just to run this app.

Jon,

Time to extend this app outside the IOS community.

"Android outsells iOS at this point.  An Android version is a must for those of us who don't use Apple products.

no argument that platform expansion would probably be good...but,

while the sales numbers are true, typical IOS owners USE their devices much more than android users and typical IOS users are more likely to be current on the OS where android users to not update.  exactly which version of android would you have them develop for?

a sensor for other than fastback would be good, but i cannot imagine being able to retro fit it on a layout of any size (like mine).  ouch.

Unfortunately there are more variations of the Android OS then there are for IOS.  If they chose to support specific Android Tablets and their associated OS then users of the other devices will be left out.

The app looks like it can control any device/accessory that has a TMCC ID.  The main issues with non-fastrack items will be icons for the graphics.

And what might you be basing this on?   How can we possibly know that "typical IOS owners USE their devices much more than android users and typical IOS".  My experience has been that Android users tend to use and understand their devices much more deeply.    That's one attraction of Android....it's configurability.

As to what version.  How about the lastest or most prevalent (which Google knows and publishes?)   It's immaterial.  If it's written to the spec and tested unless you need to use a function only present in a later version then you're home free.

"That's one attraction of Android....it's configurability."

It's also it's Achilles heel.  There are many more variations of the hardware and not all of the versions of the OS support all of the operators.

Jon,

Many thanks for your reply. I misunderstood or didn't realize that loco functions can be controlled from the IPad. Assuming the loco controls I need are assimilated into the IPad app, I would, indeed, want to try this.

I understand that the technology moves forward incrementally and I am hardly a Luddite.

My concern is strictly Lionel's use of resources and the direction the technology will take. I love the remote and how it works. I love the bells and whistles. I do not want resources used to make an "app" for the tech lovers that duplicates what we already have. I can control my switches and locos remotely now. I want whistle steam and swinging bells. Assuming the app will eventually do everything I now do, I would be interested to learn more. I will shelve my criticism based on your reply, Jon, and continue to trust that you have a higher level of understanding for what we are trying to accomplish.

MY preference is to control layout elements remotely and also have the tactile experience of a throttle. I am not an IPad stabber.

Eliot

Umm until Lionelville Part 2 is released you might never find him

Elliot I believe we told you that back in your first tirade against the app several months ago that basic controls will be on the iPag app. (I imagine most of the TMCC core commands) While the Legacy commands will still be on the Cab-2. Unlike the DCS app, this is not trying to replace everything on the controller.

Chris,

And what might you be basing this on?   How can we possibly know that "typical IOS owners USE their devices much more than android users and typical IOS"

Actually, that's been reported in the tech press (Computerworld, C/Net, etc.) on any number of occasions over the years.

My experience has been that Android users tend to use and understand their devices much more deeply.

While that may be your experience with your associates, friends and family, the tech press has a somewhat broader base from which to gather data.

    That's one attraction of Android....it's configurability.

When developing apps, that's actually a bit of a drawback, since often an app needs to be modified a bit to run on one version of an Android platform (hardware and software) than another. It's not just the software version, rather, the hardware and software itself can be different from manufacturer to manufacturer, as well.

No knock on Android (although I'm a Mac guy through and through). however, that's just the way it is.

Ok.  For the sake of the argument I'm willing to concede all these points.  However, I still think it's shortsighted of Lionel to limit their customer base to only iOS users.   If Android outsells iOS then they're ignoring more than 50% of the installed base (maybe not right now but soon).  I'm not too sure how many people have adopted both Android tablets and iPads

As someone who helps people manage both iOS and non-iOS personal devices, I can safely tell you that I see the issue of people not keeping their systems updated on either platform is pretty much equal.

John, What Barry said...

"

Source: Chitika

When it comes to the iPad, 83 percent of users are running iOS 6. Taken together, nearly 90 percent of iPhone and iPad users are on the latest version of the operating system. By comparison, Android handsets run a wide range of versions of the OS — although “fragmentation” in the Android ecosystem is significantly improving.

Source: Chitika

Now, nearly 59 percent of Android owners are on Android 4.0 or higher. However, that also means that 40 percent of users are still running an older and outdated version of Android.

i'm done with this diversion. 

I think this direction is good and I will be paying attention to see if and how I can use it (short of a layout rebuild).  

Chris,

However, I still think it's shortsighted of Lionel to limit their customer base to only iOS users.

I agree.

Don't forget that those so-called surveys aren't fully representative of all mobile device owners either.  I frankly care little about those surveys apart from idle curiosity.  I just go by my own practical experience working in the IT industry.

If you are going to start development on a product like this it makes more sense to do the development on something that has both consistent hardware and consistent OS.  It will be more complicated with a particular flavor of the OS or a particular tablet with its own peculiarities.

I don't recall anything being said about ignoring Android devices.  If the app works and is accepted for use on the IOS units than they can look at migrations paths to other devices.

Chuck,

The preferred and solution is to go live with your app once you've completed the development work for all intended platforms.  If releasing all OS versions at once isn't practical, then make it crystal clear that the app is being developed for those other platforms, and provide regular updates regarding it, not by using obscure references of it or by hearsay.  Keep the intentions known and in the foreground.

To do otherwise gives the impression that you have no intention to provide that app for those other platforms and give the wrong impression that you're alienating that other part of your customer base.

I think the app is a good start.  I would like to see a screen with multiple throttles.  It is a pain to constantly punch in the number each time to change trains on the remote when you have multiple trains active.  I would also make the slider vertical on that screen and add a picture icon with the locomotive photo at the top or bottom of each throttle.  Put the road or engine number overlayed on the picture.  Much easier to identify than just trying to remember what legacy engine id goes with which engine.

I for one am looking forward to the sensors.  I can see so much potential here.  Train/Engine dependent and direction dependent one could set up scenarios based on passenger vs freight or steam vs diesel to be triggered when a particular engine passes over.

Agreed.  I just hope Lionel offers the sensor technology to other track manufacturers... Or at a minimum, directly to consumers in some type of kit form that can be installed to work with non-FasTrack layouts.  As promising as the technology is, that feature alone would not make FasTrack my first choice of track systems for a large hi-rail layout.  That ship has already sailed (for me and I presume many others), so hopefully Lionel isn't thinking along the lines of FasTrack exclusivity here.

David

Started playing with the app.  Without the wifi link you can't access the command base and fet to "roster" info.  Not a big deal at this time.  

I am gettingthe impression that the software is allowing you to "sketch" an abstracted view of your layout rather than a "scale model".  Only critical elements or things you want/need to control are represented.  There doesn't seem to be any "scale" or zoom function.  A long straight away could be represented by two disconnected straights and then electrically/logically tied together by the block indicators.  It seems like you are building a CTC diagram of the layout rather than drawing a track plan? It looks like you can swipe between 2 or possibly 3 screens for different areas of the layout?

Since these are abstractions, I believe the issue of elements not being "FastTrack" is moot.  A switch machine controlled by an ASC or SC2 doesn't know or care if its connected to an Atlas, Ross, K-Line, Lionel or MTH switch.  Since the sensor stuff isn't available we'll have to wait and see.

While things can change, I believe at the Legacy Breakfast at April York it was mentioned that at the time, Apple Products only would be pursued.  I may be mistaken.  I went and looked in Marty's posted minutes, but I didn't see the Apple/Android question in there.

-Dave

"I can see where a sensor can snap on the rails from the under side with adjustment screws to align it."

would like to see something that would not require me to do major track work to install (my track is ballasted and some of it is in tunnels).

Does anyone know when sensortrack  will be available for purchase?  Expanding layout at moment and would be helpful to be able to include this from the beginning.

Just leave room for a 1/2 Straight Track for the sensor, a 1/2 Straight uncoupler section is a good match to complete the 10" straight section.