LionChief/LionChief + Bluetooth App

Hi Matt:

You have this question in the LionChief / LionChief Plus category and RC Systems.  So I will answer your question as related to LionChief and or LionChief Plus, Radio Signals, 2.4GHz and Bluetooth® Signals. I have no leads at this time about the smartphone or iPhones, I am still looking into this, but Bluetooth is on the new Lionel Universal Remote.

From:

Lionel LionChief™ Universal Remote Remote Owner’s Manual

Page 2.

“Congratulations on the purchase of your LionChief Universal Remote! This remote is designed to allow up to 3 separate LionChief and/or LionChief Plus locomotives under one remote. This Universal Remote is equipped with both RF as well as Bluetooth®, which makes it compatible with most all existing LionChief and LionChief Plus locomotives released up to 2016 as well as all LionChief and LionChief Plus locomotives released in 2017 and beyond!.”

The Bluetooth® word mark and logos are register trademarks owned by Bluetooth SIG, Inc. and use of such makes by Lionel is under license.

This new Universal Remote is sending out a RF radio signal at 2.4 GHz, following all FCC Rules.  It is also Bluetooth™ ready, according to the FCC rules and Industry Canada License.

Bluetooth is one more way to control LionChief and LionChief Plus locomotive.

This is an e-mail from Katie at Lionel Technical Support. Jan. 12, 2017

To: Gary

Below is a list of LionChief locomotives that are not currently compatible with the Universal Remote.

6-30162 Thomas Xmas Set

6-30183 Lionel 2-4-2 Remote Scout Steam Set

6-30190 Thomas and Friends Remote Set

6-30205 2-4-2 Remote Xmas Set

6-30206 Alien Invasion Remote RS-3 Set

6-30207 Santa Fe RS-3 Remote Scout Freight Set

6-30214 Peanuts Halloween 2-4-2 Remote Set

6-30218 The Polar Express Remote Set 

6-30221 Diesel Set (Separated sales 6-18775)

6-30222 Percy Set

6-30223 James Set

6-30228 0-8-0 Chattanooga Set 

6-30233 Pennsylvania Flyer Remote Set 

6-81031 Lionel Junction Dinosaur Diesel Remote Set

6-81101 Remote Polar with 10th Ann Logo

6-81259 PRR 0-8-0 Remote Broadway Limited

6-81262 Union Pacific Flyer Remote (0-8-0)

6-81263 Jersey Remote RS3 Passenger Train

6-81286 Little Steam Remote Set

6-81287 Union Pacific Steam Remote Freight Set

6-81288 Lionel Junction Pet Shop Diesel Remote Set

6-81331 Iron Arry

6-81332 Iron Bert

6-81480 John Deer Remote Set

6-82151 Bass Pro Shop 2-4-2 LionChief Scout RTR Set

6-82972 Lionel Junction Pennsylvania Diesel Remote Set (Loco #9431)

6-83266 Lionel Junction Santa Fe Steam Remote Set

6-83504 Birthday Thomas the Tank Engine

 Thank you,

 From Katie

Customer Service Representative

6000 Victory Lane | Concord, NC 28027

800-454-6635 ext 2 (o) | LionelSupport.com (web)

This is the link to contact Lionel; Katie at “Lionel Talk to Us.”

https://www.lionelsupport.com/ContactUs/

Also take a look at this OGR Thread from Notch 6 #83 “Lionel moving into Bluetooth Technology.”

https://ogrforum.com/t...lue-tooth-technology

                                                                                                     Bluetooth®

Controls all LionChief Plus®  -  Locomotives.

Hope this helps; Gary

Haven't heard anything at this point, but don't really expect that o-gauge LionChief engines will allow direct BlueTooth control in the foreseeable future.  The Universal remote does open the door to be used as a bridge between LionChief's radios and Bluetooth, as it contains both radios and can be reprogramed over BlueTooth to do anything one could want them to do.  That said, At this time, I would expect it more likely that a first version app for the Universal remote would simply allow someone to chose engines that are not currently supported by the remote from a list and program them into the Universal remote.  I don't see it being particularly difficult to add the bridging ability, but it seems to me there would be a more profit to be made by offering a separate product for that function, even if the current remote could do it.  

JGL

Hi Matt:  Below is an image of the Lionel • LionChief -  2017 Bluetooth APP.  This image is from Notch 6 / Show, January 23, 2017. / Lionel has not yet posted the 2017 Ready to Run Set Catalog, as of 6:00 PM EST

Hope this helps: Gary

While that helps my real question is when is the release date? 

No mention of the release date of the Bluetooth app for LionChief locos in the 2017 set catalog.  Just that it was coming.  No mention of whether LionChief+ locos will also have the Bluetooth receiver.  Would hope so and expect so, but no word.

I would hope so too, we'll just wait and see.

Why would they release an app, before they release a Bluetooth engine that can be controlled by it? None of the engines made to date have Bluetooth. I also highly doubt they built 'bridge' technology (Bluetooth to 2.4Ghz) into the Universal Remote at that price. 

George S posted:

Why would they release an app, before they release a Bluetooth engine that can be controlled by it? None of the engines made to date have Bluetooth. I also highly doubt they built 'bridge' technology (Bluetooth to 2.4Ghz) into the Universal Remote at that price. 

The HO polar express is Bluetooth ready. 

MartyE posted:

George S posted:

Why would they release an app, before they release a Bluetooth engine that can be controlled by it? None of the engines made to date have Bluetooth. I also highly doubt they built 'bridge' technology (Bluetooth to 2.4Ghz) into the Universal Remote at that price. 

The HO polar express is Bluetooth ready. 

That's a good point. I forgot about that one, because I am not into HO. However, doubt they would issue an app for one train.

My point is that, if there really is an app (I have not seen an official announcement) it will likely come out at the time they release multiple Bluetooth engines and sets or afterward. Also, don't expect it to run any non-Bluetooth trains they have already released.

However, maybe JGL could build us a bridge? If someone built a $175 Bluetooth to 2.4Ghz bridge that worked with this app, would people buy it?

"

However, maybe JGL could build us a bridge? If someone built a $175 Bluetooth to 2.4Ghz bridge that worked with this app, would people buy it?"

Who knows?  But I wonder if the simplest and least expensive approach might be for Lionel to build Bluetooth ± LionChief into a next generation Legacy system so folks can control their friends and childrens' LC/Bluetooth locos with their Legacy system.

In any case, both MTH and Lionel have moved in the direction of controlling trains using smart phones and tablets.  The difference in approach is that the MTH approach currently requires the purchase of DCS and wi-fi, a close to $500 investment.  It appears Lionel is going to make a cheaper option available in sets, and presumably LC+,  through direct Bluetooth communications which will not require the purchase of their Legacy system/wi-fi device.

Landsteiner posted:

"

However, maybe JGL could build us a bridge? If someone built a $175 Bluetooth to 2.4Ghz bridge that worked with this app, would people buy it?"

Who knows?  But I wonder if the simplest and least expensive approach might be for Lionel to build Bluetooth ± LionChief into a next generation Legacy system so folks can control their friends and childrens' LC/Bluetooth locos with their Legacy system.

 

In any case, both MTH and Lionel have moved in the direction of controlling trains using smart phones and tablets.  The difference in approach is that the MTH approach currently requires the purchase of DCS and wi-fi, a close to $500 investment.  It appears Lionel is going to make a cheaper option available in sets, and presumably LC+,  through direct Bluetooth communications which will not require the purchase of their Legacy system/wi-fi device.

Cost was what I was getting at with my question. Direct Bluetooth control of engines seems to be a low cost option to your point. Lionel and Bachmann are embracing this.  However, Lionel came late to the game after making hundreds of 2.4Ghz engines. Building it into Legacy is an option, but now the cost is in the range of your point regarding MTH. (The Legacy system is $280 and the Legacy WiFi is $165, so $445 plus cables, and I make be missing some components.)

Landsteiner posted:

The difference in approach is that the MTH approach currently requires the purchase of DCS and wi-fi, a close to $500 investment.  

Actually, DCS WiFi would cost $335, $170 for just the TIU without remote and $165 for the WiFi unit. Still, this only addresses MTH engines.

If someone built a $175 Bluetooth to 2.4Ghz bridge that worked with this app, would people buy it?

I have to agree, even if the bridge only cost $75. What is an app going to do that the $50 LC universal remote won't do. If you do build app & bridge device, it would be limited to the capabilities of the LC Universal remote.

The whole idea behind LionCheif remotes was to keep things simple. Apps & Bluetooth pairing procedures starts to complicate things.

If the engines have Bluetooth built in already, Skip the LC universal remote and pair the engine with a smart phone and use an app to control it. Wait a minute, didn't blue-rail already build this?

Beings that Bluetooth operates in the same 2.4 GHz ISM band it would only seem natural to include Bluetooth for future expansion as it is pretty cheap to add if you are already installing a 2.4 GHz radio. 

It is possible Lionel doesn't know exactly how they will use Bluetooth yet but knows that it opens the door to great possibilities.

H1000

"Building it into Legacy is an option, but now the cost is in the range of your point regarding MTH. (The Legacy system is $280 and the Legacy WiFi is $165, so $445 plus cables, and I make be missing some components.)"

The only reason for Lionel to do this is to please Legacy users who want to be able to control most Lionel products using their Legacy system.  Those starting out without Legacy will have command control simply by using their LionChief remote, which comes with the loco/set, or using the Bluetooth app.   People who don't want or need the features of Legacy need not spring for the Legacy remote/base and wi-fi unit.  I'm guessing they will eventually deal with this issue, but I suspect it is a very low priority.  The LC and LC+ lines are not presently directed at the serious hobbyist who already has Legacy. 

Would not surprise me if at some point in the future all Lionel locos , including Legacy,  have the Bluetooth receiver built in, since the additional hardware costs are likely quite modest,  and the firmware is sunk costs, as it already has been developed for use with LC/LC+.

I don't really see Lionel adding Lionchief control into the Legacy system. The Lionchief engines already run on a Legacy layout just not with a Legacy remote or app. As H1000 said, they are trying to keep things simple with the Lionchief line.

George S posted:

 However, Lionel came late to the game after making hundreds of 2.4Ghz engines.

Just to clarify, 2.4 GHz is from the Legacy remote to the base; it's 455 KHz from the base to the engines.

Dave

Dtrainmaster posted:

George S posted:

 However, Lionel came late to the game after making hundreds of 2.4Ghz engines.

Just to clarify, 2.4 GHz is from the Legacy remote to the base; it's 455 KHz from the base to the engines.

Dave

I was talking about Lionchief engines; no base there.

However, Lionel came late to the game after making hundreds of 2.4Ghz engines.

Not to mention the dozens of 27Mhz engines that have no chance for any of the newer control methods.

H1000

H1000 posted:

However, Lionel came late to the game after making hundreds of 2.4Ghz engines.

Not to mention the dozens of 27Mhz engines that have no chance for any of the newer control methods.

H1000

The BlueRail board you mentioned is $70. It only supports a 2 Amp motor, and I haven't checked whether it would work for sure, but that might be an option for folks to upgrade those old engines. 

"Not to mention the dozens of 27Mhz engines that have no chance for any of the newer control methods."

Or the 100+ years of conventional engines .  Would be pleased to see a LionChief locomotive retrofit kit with remote, but I'm not holding my breath.

Trainlover9943 posted:

Any word on the Bluetooth app to run LionChief/ LionChief + engines from a smartphone? 

The LionChief app is now available on the App Store! This app will run The Polar Express HO and American Flyer Northern's that have already shipped.

All the LionChief Plus Engines and LionChief sets shipping in 2017 can also be controlled by the app.

MWreck posted:

Trainlover9943 posted:

Any word on the Bluetooth app to run LionChief/ LionChief + engines from a smartphone? 

The LionChief app is now available on the App Store! This app will run The Polar Express HO and American Flyer Northern's that have already shipped.

All the LionChief Plus Engines and LionChief sets shipping in 2017 can also be controlled by the app.

Cool! Will it be available for Android devices too? Is only the stuff being shipped in 2017 control able with the app (No stuff shipped last year in 2016 ie, camelbacks, A5s and NW2s?)

MWreck posted:

Trainlover9943 posted:

Any word on the Bluetooth app to run LionChief/ LionChief + engines from a smartphone? 

The LionChief app is now available on the App Store! This app will run The Polar Express HO and American Flyer Northern's that have already shipped.

All the LionChief Plus Engines and LionChief sets shipping in 2017 can also be controlled by the app.

I'm shocked! They must have some great app developers. It takes MTH years to release an app version.

I downloaded it. I can't do anything with it, because you need a Bluetooth engine. It looks like you pair your engine to your phone and then the app can find it. The top middle of the screen seems to hold the list of engines.  Very cool!

Now, I have to wait until they release an O gauge Bluetooth engine.

George S posted:

I also highly doubt they built 'bridge' technology (Bluetooth to 2.4Ghz) into the Universal Remote at that price. 

While the software probably doesn't exist at this point, the ability to bridge from BlueTooth to the 2.4GHz radios of the LC/+ engines built up to this point is there already.  In fact, that's all the universal remote really is.  The only components in the thing besides the power supply and input controls are a 2.4GHz radio of the type LC/+ has used and a BlueTooth BLE module that actually does all the work with it's on-board processor.  The design allows for a complete reprograming of the 'brains' such that with the proper programing the remote could be updated to bridge any communications between BLE and LC/+ engines.  

On to the App that appears to have been just released, it seems interesting, as it says it will allow some adjustment of sound pitch, remote on/off for smoke, speed limit, and momentum settings.  It seems someone discovered just how powerful the processor on a $2 BLE module can be.  

For what it's worth, I'd rather see effort put into making the universal remote truly universal, rather than into allowing control of engines from my phone.  Both are good and have a market, but for me, one is a product I put money down on nearly 2 years ago with the expectation it would run everything, and the other is a product I have no real interest in.  

JGL

JohnGaltLine posted:

George S posted:

I also highly doubt they built 'bridge' technology (Bluetooth to 2.4Ghz) into the Universal Remote at that price. 

 It seems someone discovered just how powerful the processor on a $2 BLE module can be.  

For what it's worth, I'd rather see effort put into making the universal remote truly universal, rather than into allowing control of engines from my phone.  

JGL

I'll trust you on the bridge. Maybe it is that easy...

But isn't the BLE module just a communications chip, which sends and receives signals? The command control processing is really happening on the board in the engine that is receiving commands. 

I understand on the remote, they did commit to making the older engines work with it eventually. At least you have more hope of getting those to work with the remote than I do of getting the remote or app to control my 259e.

MWreck posted:

Trainlover9943 posted:

Any word on the Bluetooth app to run LionChief/ LionChief + engines from a smartphone? 

The LionChief app is now available on the App Store! This app will run The Polar Express HO and American Flyer Northern's that have already shipped.

All the LionChief Plus Engines and LionChief sets shipping in 2017 can also be controlled by the app.

Does Lionel have any information about the app on its website or in a catalog? I can't find anything.

They'll probably have something about it in the RTR catalog. They go online tomorrow at 9am. 

I looked Lionel LionChief app. It has some nice features and adds a new way to run the set.  Although, I run a lot of scale engines and Legacy, I still pick up sets from Lionel to run around.   My kids are now in Highschool still like running trains and use the APPs to run them all the time.   Having the sets go to Bluetooth and running from an APP is a nice addition.    

JohnGaltLine posted:

For what it's worth, I'd rather see effort put into making the universal remote truly universal, rather than into allowing control of engines from my phone.  Both are good and have a market, but for me, one is a product I put money down on nearly 2 years ago with the expectation it would run everything, and the other is a product I have no real interest in.  

JGL

Well, I've gone through this thread pretty fast, and am not an electronics expert, but will the Bluetooth app allow an operator to bypass the limitations of running LC+ engines only from dedicated controllers, and instead allow them to be run from a cellphone without the controllers?

"will the Bluetooth app allow an operator to bypass the limitations of running LC+ engines only from dedicated controllers, and instead allow them to be run from a cellphone without the controllers"

 That is correct. Controllers optional for all the newly catalogued LC and LC+ locos from 2017 catalogues onward.

Landsteiner posted:

"will the Bluetooth app allow an operator to bypass the limitations of running LC+ engines only from dedicated controllers, and instead allow them to be run from a cellphone without the controllers"

 

 That is correct. Controllers optional for all the newly catalogued LC and LC+ locos from 2017 catalogues onward.

I guess that eliminates one of the major issues some folks had with LC+. Good news to have the option of running them without being tied to the controllers.

It would be nice if Lionel would offer a mod for pre-2017 LC+ engines to enable them to run with the Bluetooth app, but that may not be feasible.

breezinup posted:

Landsteiner posted:

"will the Bluetooth app allow an operator to bypass the limitations of running LC+ engines only from dedicated controllers, and instead allow them to be run from a cellphone without the controllers"

 

 That is correct. Controllers optional for all the newly catalogued LC and LC+ locos from 2017 catalogues onward.

I guess that eliminates one of the major issues some folks had with LC+. Good news to have the option of running them without being tied to the controllers.

It would be nice if Lionel would offer a mod for pre-2017 LC+ engines to enable them to run with the Bluetooth app, but that may not be feasible.

I agree, I'm sure they'll come up with something for pre 2017 equipment. 

George S posted:

I'll trust you on the bridge. Maybe it is that easy...

But isn't the BLE module just a communications chip, which sends and receives signals? The command control processing is really happening on the board in the engine that is receiving commands. 

I understand on the remote, they did commit to making the older engines work with it eventually. At least you have more hope of getting those to work with the remote than I do of getting the remote or app to control my 259e.

I won't say a bridge is exactly easy, but the needed hardware already exists in the universal remote.  The actual programing to make it work is likely going to take some folk that know what they are doing some time and thought.  

As for the BLE module, no, it is much more than just a radio in this case.  Not having a new generation of LC engine to dismantle and confirm this I can't say for sure this is the route being taken, but can guess it is based on the design of the universal remote.  In previous LC/+ engines there is a processor on the main board that handles sending and receiving data to/from the radio as well as handling motor speed triggering sounds and such.  Over all acting as the brains of the operation.  The radios used in LC/+ up to this point are really simple devices that can easily be controlled by a rather slow processor.  

BlueTooth/BLE, however requires a much stronger processor to encode data properly for the protocol.  Because of this the BLE modules on the market today include a processor that is up to the task right on the radio module.  Now one can still use these radios as devices controlled by another processor, but often the onboard processor has more than enough extra power remaining to control a simple device.  The module used in the universal remote, for example has several GPIO pins, half a dozen PWM capable outputs and another half dozen Analog input pins.  In essence the module by it's self can replace the processor on future LC products, and likely allow for more functions to be added, as well as 'over the air' software updates to the engine.  

As a side note, it is theoretically possible to use the guts from a low-end LC engine and put them into your older conventional engines.  I would use something similar to the set-up I used for the LC Cruise project, where the original LC board sends information to a second motor driver, and that board is designed to control the motor.  It's a bit convoluted, but could be made to work if someone really wanted it.  

breezinup posted:

I guess that eliminates one of the major issues some folks had with LC+. Good news to have the option of running them without being tied to the controllers.

It would be nice if Lionel would offer a mod for pre-2017 LC+ engines to enable them to run with the Bluetooth app, but that may not be feasible.

Because of the way mobil devices are set up, they can not easily (or at all, most likely) be used by an App to directly control their radios, and are instead limited to 'talking' only to Wifi or BlueTooth enabled devices.  Because of this you would need an intermediate device to send information back and forth between the 2016 and before generation of LC/LC+ products.  Fortunately the LionChief Universal remote could be programed as such a device, if Big L wants to do so.  I'm unsure if it is on the slate for them to do so, but it could be done with the remote as it currently stands with a software update.   As for actually modifying the engines, it could theoretically be done, but I think it would be more trouble than it's worth, as it would involve trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.  Possible, but unlikely to be worth the trouble for the limited number of folks that would prefer this option over having a bridge device that provides the same functionality without having to open up and modify their engines.  

For what it's worth, heres the insides of the universal remote. you can note the lack of any processor on the main board, as it instead uses the BLE module's processor to run everything.  

JGL

George S posted:

JohnGaltLine posted:

George S posted:

I also highly doubt they built 'bridge' technology (Bluetooth to 2.4Ghz) into the Universal Remote at that price. 

 It seems someone discovered just how powerful the processor on a $2 BLE module can be.  

For what it's worth, I'd rather see effort put into making the universal remote truly universal, rather than into allowing control of engines from my phone.  

JGL

I'll trust you on the bridge. Maybe it is that easy...

But isn't the BLE module just a communications chip, which sends and receives signals? The command control processing is really happening on the board in the engine that is receiving commands. 

I understand on the remote, they did commit to making the older engines work with it eventually. At least you have more hope of getting those to work with the remote than I do of getting the remote or app to control my 259e.

Lionel has more than one bridge they ought to be working on. Why don't they create a small device to bridge Lionchief to Legacy? That is something useful. Each year it seems they release something new that is incompatible with the new thing from the previous year. The past few years we've been left with this trail of things that don't play with other things, in the name of the unnecessary necessity to have the latest and greatest way to achieve the same basic task: run trains in circles. Even the "universal" remote doesn't function yet. For the time being, I'll stick with my 1950 ZW. It's backward compatible to the year 1900, and can also run a new Legacy or Lionchief plus loco made today. 

What most people miss, LC was never supposed to be Legacy and vice versa.    A lot of folks were asking for a lower cost, less complicated system of trains and control.  Lionel gave them LC and LC+.  Now they want Legacy control of LC.  I feel sorry for some of the manufacturers.  No matter what they do someone is not happy.  That being said it would have been smart of them to build an interface from Legacy to LC from the start because they should have seen this coming.

George S posted:

MWreck posted:

Trainlover9943 posted:

Any word on the Bluetooth app to run LionChief/ LionChief + engines from a smartphone? 

The LionChief app is now available on the App Store! This app will run The Polar Express HO and American Flyer Northern's that have already shipped.

All the LionChief Plus Engines and LionChief sets shipping in 2017 can also be controlled by the app.

Does Lionel have any information about the app on its website or in a catalog? I can't find anything.

Hey George!

We have just release a section of our site http://www.lionel.com/bluetooth with the basics. We will be adding more details soon.

MWreck posted:

George S posted:

MWreck posted:

Trainlover9943 posted:

Any word on the Bluetooth app to run LionChief/ LionChief + engines from a smartphone? 

The LionChief app is now available on the App Store! This app will run The Polar Express HO and American Flyer Northern's that have already shipped.

All the LionChief Plus Engines and LionChief sets shipping in 2017 can also be controlled by the app.

Does Lionel have any information about the app on its website or in a catalog? I can't find anything.

Hey George!

We have just release a section of our site http://www.lionel.com/bluetooth with the basics. We will be adding more details soon.

Thank you!  Very cool!

George

MWreck posted:

Hey George!

We have just release a section of our site http://www.lionel.com/bluetooth with the basics. We will be adding more details soon.

Unless I'm missing something this is just instructions on how to download the App.  I don't want to knock this too much, as someone is obviously trying to get the information out there, and it is noted that more info is on the way,  but don't you think it would be useful to use the terminology used by the App Store in these instructions?  I would think that anyone that actually needs instructions on how to download an App would find it useful to have the instructions actually use words found in the AppStore such as "GET" instead of "Download".  It might also be useful to add instructions on ensuring Bluetooth is enabled on your device and how to log in to the App Store if we are providing instructions based on folks having never used a mobile device before.  

GregR posted:

Lionel has more than one bridge they ought to be working on. Why don't they create a small device to bridge Lionchief to Legacy? That is something useful. 

As I have a working prototype here I sort of hope they don't.  There are a number of reasons I've discussed before in other threads on why I don't think it is likely, but Big L could make such a bridge for TMCC/Legacy to control LC/+ engines at any time they wanted with minimal effort.  

JGL

MWreck posted:

We have just released a section of our site http://www.lionel.com/bluetooth with the basics. We will be adding more details soon.

Is there a date when an Android version of the app will be released?

Thanks!