Lionchief Plus Hollow Axles - Watch out...

Chuck Sartor posted:

While it is a Lionel product, I doubt Lionel specified 'make as cheap as possible' to the Chinese. Lionel was most likely unaware of the manufacturing change, so lets not pile it on. There is only one answer to the production problems, bring it back to the good old USA. Otherwise we as a consumer are just going to have to live with it. Quantity, not quality is number one over there.

RIGHT ON!  Nothing made in China or  certain other countries is of the quality of the same item made in America or Japan.  Like those junk fake Hondas made in China.  The Disney glasses that McDonalds gave out with poison ink on them from China.  The fake Crock shoes from China with chemicals in them that burned/blistered your feet.  The inferior cotton product shipped here from around the world.  Jeans last a year or so now when they used last many years.  Zinc pest anyone? Junk control boards?   Quantity over quality for sure!  Wonder if Lionel still has the tooling and stuff they used in Mount Clemmons Michigan?

Jim

Lionel sells it, they do not make it.   One good aspect about the LC+ or FlyerChief is that Lionel supports the hell out of the product.   Doing work for the worlds largest train store,  I get to see a lot of engines each week.   Any parts I need are  here  in just a few days.  I do not disagree with many of the things in this post and when they are running, they run fantastic.  I recently was exposed to the Flyer Bluetooth.  Now that is very exciting.    I have seen many people buying LC+.   I see this line getting very popular.  I have hit the axle situation a few times.  Easy fix.

Recently, Lionel came out with the remote that will run three trains.  That is a great product and I am surprised it sells for short money.  I would go crazy when someone would send a locomotive back and complain about something in remote mode.  I would get the locomotive and they would not send the remote  DUH.  Thank you Lionel for making the new remote.

carsntrains posted:

Chuck Sartor posted:

While it is a Lionel product, I doubt Lionel specified 'make as cheap as possible' to the Chinese. Lionel was most likely unaware of the manufacturing change, so lets not pile it on.

Huh?? Manufacturing ( as well as many other things) typically goes to the "lowest bidder".

 There is only one answer to the production problems, bring it back to the good old USA. Otherwise we as a consumer are just going to have to live with it. Quantity, not quality is number one over there.

Unfortunately, not true either. If it was, America would grind to a halt. Whens the last time you bought a new computer, big screen TV, cell phone, or whatever, and it didn't work right out of the box, or fail shortly after?

Besides, here lately Lionel seems to have the "Lions share" ( irony) of defects, errors, and poor quality, all while raising prices by hundreds of dollars. MTH prices have been steady for years, so has the quality of the product.....made in china.

 

carsntrains posted:

RIGHT ON!  Nothing made in China or  certain other countries is of the quality of the same item made in America or Japan.  Like those junk fake Hondas made in China.  The Disney glasses that McDonalds gave out with poison ink on them from China.  The fake Crock shoes from China with chemicals in them that burned/blistered your feet.  The inferior cotton product shipped here from around the world.  Jeans last a year or so now when they used last many years.  Zinc pest anyone? Junk control boards?   Quantity over quality for sure!  Wonder if Lionel still has the tooling and stuff they used in Mount Clemmons Michigan?

Jim

There are fake junk GM cars made in Mexico and China sold here.

Speaking of Michigan, what about the toxic tap water in Flint, the American water treatment plant poisoning its own residents??

50 years ago maybe.... today its a crap shoot as far as where junk items can be made. On top of that many of whats considered "American" like some of the major automakers are actually much farther down the list when it comes to parts and manufaturing location. Gotta read between the lines sometimes.

Rick Rubino posted:

those wheels look very rusty for a week old locomotive.

It looks like rust in the photo, but it's actually brass ground down into dust that spread over everything.

RickO posted:

carsntrains posted:

RIGHT ON!  Nothing made in China or  certain other countries is of the quality of the same item made in America or Japan.  Like those junk fake Hondas made in China.  The Disney glasses that McDonalds gave out with poison ink on them from China.  The fake Crock shoes from China with chemicals in them that burned/blistered your feet.  The inferior cotton product shipped here from around the world.  Jeans last a year or so now when they used last many years.  Zinc pest anyone? Junk control boards?   Quantity over quality for sure!  Wonder if Lionel still has the tooling and stuff they used in Mount Clemmons Michigan?

Jim

There are fake junk GM cars made in Mexico and China sold here.

Speaking of Michigan, what about the toxic tap water in Flint, the American water treatment plant poisoning its own residents??

50 years ago maybe.... today its a crap shoot as far as where junk items can be made. On top of that many of whats considered "American" like some of the major automakers are actually much farther down the list when it comes to parts and manufaturing location. Gotta read between the lines sometimes.

I know all about Flint.   I am from Michigan.   We are not speaking of governments. That's another story for another place. Being from Michigan I am also from a UAW family. And I understand that  all manufacturing in America has been degraded by using foreign parts.  And that is the point.   Get the raw goods here, make the parts here, assemble the finished product here.  Buy American and hire American.  Focus on quality and not quantity.  We can make a quality product in large quantity.  Its just takes a bit more effort.  Lionel even sees the writing on the wall.   You think its nostalgia that caused them to come out with the "made in America" line?   : )    Heck I even make sure my overalls are American products, made by Americans in America, using American woven denim.  

That being said.  Are there any O gauge trains made in America with American parts?  

Jim : )

I am doing what NS is doing at their Juniata shops-taking my old Made in America Lionels and rebuilding them for another 50 yrs of use.

Chuck Sartor posted:

While it is a Lionel product, I doubt Lionel specified 'make as cheap as possible' to the Chinese. Lionel was most likely unaware of the manufacturing change, so lets not pile it on. There is only one answer to the production problems, bring it back to the good old USA. Otherwise we as a consumer are just going to have to live with it. Quantity, not quality is number one over there.

One problem in logic with your thinking. Lionel chose to have all of its trains produced in China. No one forced Lionel to do so. It did so to dramatically reduce production costs and increase profit margins.

If Lionel brought its manufacturing back to the U.S., what makes you think Lionel would suddenly increase the quality while also paying at least double the production costs while at the same time making a product that remains affordable?

Not to mention the debt Lionel would have to take on if it creates its own production facilities like it once had in New Jersey and Michigan.

Lionel's quality control problems began when Sanda Kan, a well-respected Chinese model train manufacturer, was bought by Bachmann's parent company, Kader, and booted Lionel, Atlas and others out if its production facilities a decade ago.

China produces many top-notch products, but the competition for top-level production facilities is severe, given the amount of exports in which China has been involved for two decades now. It would be no different in the U.S., where manufacturing varies from top notch to low-level -- or have you forgotten how production values were cheapened when Lionel's sales started to erode severely in the 1960s?

My  point is that Lionel would be able to have control of all phases of manufacturing, and not have unexpected 'surprises' that seem to change every production run.

"During the Postwar period, and for a good part of the Modern era, Lionel used Oilite bearings for the axles of most* diesel trucks. Oilite bearings are made of sintered bronze, are porous, and are impregnated with oil. So the axle bearings rarely required lubrication. (supposedly Oilite bearings are lifetime lubricated).
When I want to oil one of those bearings, I use the lightest oil possible. You do not want to clog the pores of the bearings."

Industrial FYI, from Wikipedia:

"Oilite was developed by Chrysler in 1930,^[1] originally for use in bearings for water pumps and spring shackles, and without oil as the porous filter element in gasoline filters. Chrysler sold approximately 500,000 Oilite bearings in 1930 and approximately 2.5 million the next year. The Super Oilite was introduced in 1932. Overall sales of all Oilite material in 1932 was seven million; this rose to 18 million in 1933. Oilite was a profit center for Chrysler during this time.^[1] Currently, the Oilite trademark belongs to Beemer Precision."

I think what most people fail to realize is that quality is not a manufacturing decision.  it is a profit/financial decision.  Any product can be made at any quality.  A firm makes a decision to produce a product at a certain level of quality and to accept a certain level of expense to address post production repairs.  It has NOTHING to do with whether the product is made in China, the USA or the Moon.  If has everything to do with what the firm wants to pay for manufacturing , what they can sell the product for and and what they can tolerate as liabilities for warranty.

Quality IS partly an attitude and manufacturing decision if the employees don't adhere to them and poor management doesn't enforce them. I know-been on the wrong end of such stuff.  More than once I gave the manufacturing end h----  for not following drawings and specs.  And I am not talking toy trains but big pumps worth thousands of dollars.

More excuses?? Or trying to explain them away.  The hobby is in trouble - us old folks are more forgiving, though I am changing my attitude, younger folks 20 + and up are not. My son is a perfect example, had a bad experience and now has moved on to other items, trains are no longer on his mind and he grew up with a layout in the basement and had all the access one could want. 

As he pointed out to me the other day ...." I work hard for my money and to get a new unit that is DOA or crap out of the box is not acceptable so good by to the train hobby, I will find something else"

Kevin

carsntrains posted:

RickO posted:

carsntrains posted:

RIGHT ON!  Nothing made in China or  certain other countries is of the quality of the same item made in America or Japan.  Like those junk fake Hondas made in China.  The Disney glasses that McDonalds gave out with poison ink on them from China.  The fake Crock shoes from China with chemicals in them that burned/blistered your feet.  The inferior cotton product shipped here from around the world.  Jeans last a year or so now when they used last many years.  Zinc pest anyone? Junk control boards?   Quantity over quality for sure!  Wonder if Lionel still has the tooling and stuff they used in Mount Clemmons Michigan?

Jim

There are fake junk GM cars made in Mexico and China sold here.

Speaking of Michigan, what about the toxic tap water in Flint, the American water treatment plant poisoning its own residents??

50 years ago maybe.... today its a crap shoot as far as where junk items can be made. On top of that many of whats considered "American" like some of the major automakers are actually much farther down the list when it comes to parts and manufaturing location. Gotta read between the lines sometimes.

I know all about Flint.   I am from Michigan.   We are not speaking of governments. That's another story for another place. Being from Michigan I am also from a UAW family. And I understand that  all manufacturing in America has been degraded by using foreign parts.  And that is the point.   Get the raw goods here, make the parts here, assemble the finished product here.  Buy American and hire American.  Focus on quality and not quantity.  We can make a quality product in large quantity.  Its just takes a bit more effort.  Lionel even sees the writing on the wall.   You think its nostalgia that caused them to come out with the "made in America" line?   : )    Heck I even make sure my overalls are American products, made by Americans in America, using American woven denim.  

That being said.  Are there any O gauge trains made in America with American parts?  

Jim : )

 

 

 

 

 

There was one............... Weaver Models.........RIP............

And as far as some have said the buyers in the US KNOW what is going into their specified builds are wrong.   Ive seen it in many cases.  Including NASCAR die cast and in manufacturing of Christmas lights. Both are my other hobbies.  Where buyers are ordering quality parts to be put in a product, then later the buyer finds cheap things hidden inside.  Yall really think Lionel took one of those axels and cut it in two ??  You think McDonalds ordered those Disney cups and told them to put toxic paint on them?  "Yall think you can use some inferior stuff in my build so our product will suck"??      I don't think so.

Jim  ..  Hoping and praying that manufacturing comes back to the USA! 

When the board died in my NW2 after only having for nine hours, Lionel bent over backward to get it repaired for me, I am very thankful for them this. Part of why Lionel can't move back to America is the tooling is stuck in China, I have heard a few rumors of companies smashing their dies over there to prevent them leaving the plant. The former Weaver tooling they have moved to their North Carolina plant and are making cars in America with them again. Lionel also ran into their made in America supplier, in Kansas I think, went bankrupt. Life-like had a good strategy, coolers in the summer, trains in the winter, kept their plant running all year long. Lionel is doing something like that with having contractors make the trains for them. I don't think even selling cars in kit form would have saved post-war Lionel after their military contracts ran out. Everything has its draw back, and its benefits. Still would like to know if the NW2 has the axle issue, I don't think mine does, but I need to know, so I can save up to have it repaired in the future.

  Yall really think Lionel took one of those axels and cut it in two ??

Postwar Lionel probably did things like that. All sorts of production samples have turned up over the years. From individual parts that were submitted for approval by subcontractors, to complete pieces.

Amazing!  I build live steamers in O gauge and 3 1/2 inch gauge.  Last week I bought a 3 foot length of O-1 drill rod for axles for my latest project in O gauge.  It cost a whopping $1.57 retail!  Using brass tube for axles is beyond me.  Brass axle in a brass bearing with no lubrication is a disaster.

Jim R. posted:

Chuck Sartor posted:

Lionel was most likely unaware of the manufacturing change, so lets not pile it on.  There is only one answer to the production problems, bring it back to the good old USA.  Otherwise we as a consumer are just going to have to live with it.  Quantity, not quality is number one over there.

One problem in logic with your thinking.  Lionel chose to have all of its trains produced in China.  No one forced Lionel to do so.  It did so to dramatically reduce production costs and increase profit margins.

If Lionel brought its manufacturing back to the U.S., what makes you think Lionel would suddenly increase the quality while also paying at least double the production costs while at the same time making a product that remains affordable?

Not to mention the debt Lionel would have to take on if it creates its own production facilities like it once had in New Jersey and Michigan.

Lionel's quality control problems began when Sanda Kan, a well-respected Chinese model train manufacturer, was bought by Bachmann's parent company, Kader, and booted Lionel, Atlas and others out if its production facilities a decade ago.

China produces many top-notch products, but the competition for top-level production facilities is severe, given the amount of exports in which China has been involved for two decades now.  It would be no different in the U.S., where manufacturing varies from top notch to low-level -- or have you forgotten how production values were cheapened when Lionel's sales started to erode severely in the 1960s?

Jim R. & Chuck Sartor:   are you guys aware that Lionel has had many of its boxcars & some other rolling stock pieces made by a subcontractor here in the U.S. for 5 years or more?  The graphics on many of these these cars is second to none &, I think, the best ever seen in in O gauge.  Lionel is also personally producing rolling stock at is North Carolina location from some of the old Weaver tooling.  Did all of this escape you? 

bottom line is lionel is responsible for what it puts its name on period 

RadioRon posted:

Jim R. posted:

Chuck Sartor posted:

Lionel was most likely unaware of the manufacturing change, so lets not pile it on.  There is only one answer to the production problems, bring it back to the good old USA.  Otherwise we as a consumer are just going to have to live with it.  Quantity, not quality is number one over there.

One problem in logic with your thinking.  Lionel chose to have all of its trains produced in China.  No one forced Lionel to do so.  It did so to dramatically reduce production costs and increase profit margins.

If Lionel brought its manufacturing back to the U.S., what makes you think Lionel would suddenly increase the quality while also paying at least double the production costs while at the same time making a product that remains affordable?

Not to mention the debt Lionel would have to take on if it creates its own production facilities like it once had in New Jersey and Michigan.

Lionel's quality control problems began when Sanda Kan, a well-respected Chinese model train manufacturer, was bought by Bachmann's parent company, Kader, and booted Lionel, Atlas and others out if its production facilities a decade ago.

China produces many top-notch products, but the competition for top-level production facilities is severe, given the amount of exports in which China has been involved for two decades now.  It would be no different in the U.S., where manufacturing varies from top notch to low-level -- or have you forgotten how production values were cheapened when Lionel's sales started to erode severely in the 1960s?

Jim R. & Chuck Sartor:   are you guys aware that Lionel has had many of its boxcars & some other rolling stock pieces made by a subcontractor here in the U.S. for 5 years or more?  The graphics on many of these these cars is second to none &, I think, the best ever seen in in O gauge.  Lionel is also personally producing rolling stock at is North Carolina location from some of the old Weaver tooling.  Did all of this escape you? 

According to a reply above, the U.S. subcontractor went bankrupt. (You must have missed that posting. ) And the Weaver models are still being made for Lionel and painted in North Carolina in a new facility within the plant. 

More than 95 percent of Lionel's product comes from China. So what's your point, outside of meaningless trivia?

We are talking locomotives, not rolling stock, did that escape you?

RickO posted:

carsntrains posted:

RIGHT ON!  Nothing made in China or  certain other countries is of the quality of the same item made in America or Japan.  Like those junk fake Hondas made in China.  The Disney glasses that McDonalds gave out with poison ink on them from China.  The fake Crock shoes from China with chemicals in them that burned/blistered your feet.  The inferior cotton product shipped here from around the world.  Jeans last a year or so now when they used last many years.  Zinc pest anyone? Junk control boards?   Quantity over quality for sure!  Wonder if Lionel still has the tooling and stuff they used in Mount Clemmons Michigan?

Jim

There are fake junk GM cars made in Mexico and China sold here.

Speaking of Michigan, what about the toxic tap water in Flint, the American water treatment plant poisoning its own residents??

50 years ago maybe.... today its a crap shoot as far as where junk items can be made. On top of that many of whats considered "American" like some of the major automakers are actually much farther down the list when it comes to parts and manufaturing location. Gotta read between the lines sometimes.

Flint, MI: and they still haven't done much to fix the water system, either. One might get the idea that the government just doesn't care much because of the cost. Or the poor people who are hardest hit.  I'm sure that is not the problem!