LionChief Plus Product Review, RS-3, Four Road Names.

My grandchildren, have been over for the past two nights and they are coming back for an over night again this week.  We have a lot of fun running the trains. Using the LionChief Plus Controller and conventional trains. The LionChief Plus, gives the operator two ways to run trains. See diagram below., from the Lionel Manual.

Cheers from The Detroit and Mackinac Railway

Opinions vary.

RS# with EMD tyle trucks?

I guess the EMD style trucks was a cost saving device.  I really like LC+, I don't own a diesel yet as Lionel has not offered a road I want.  The LCCA had a B&M GP9, but you couldn't buy just the powered unit so I passed on it. 

Gary,

    Is the Lion Chief Plus a stand alone Remote Control only Train, like the LC Hallmark/Lionel I got this Christmas, or is the LC Plus controllable with the Legacy/DCS Controls, as well as its own remote control unit.

PCRR/Dave a 

Hi Dave:

The LionChief Plus, only works with the LionChief Controller, that is assigned to that locomotive. Think of it as a garage door opener, you would not want to share that radio channel with your neighbor. I also belong to two Radio Controlled Airplane Clubs, we all now fly on one frequency. That is 2,4GHz. the Receiver & Transmitter will find each other and keep them together. Just like a garage door opener. 

Legacy, TMCC & DCS are not compatible, with LionChief or LionChief Plus. Lionel is going to be shipping a Universal Remote, this spring that with remember any 3 locomotives that are assigned to the universal remote and can be changed at any time. 

I just purchased today my 3rd LionChief Plus Locomotive, Rio Grande FT, A-B-A Units. I like this system because when I have visitors to the train room, they each get a locomotive and a controller. No sharing a Legacy Remote or a DCS Remote. One more thing, if my MTH / TIU / or DCS Controller does not work, I have 19, locomotive that are dead on the tracks. If a LionChief Plus loco goes down, only one engine is dead on the tracks.

Hope this helps, always enjoy talking with you about trains. Gary

If you switch it over to conventional transformer controlled do the engine sounds still work?

Can you activate the horn and bell with your transformer?

Gary,

Great job on the video!  Very enjoyable, and thanks for including the type of equipment you used in its production.  A very professional presentation. 

Garfield posted:

If you switch it over to conventional transformer controlled do the engine sounds still work?

Can you activate the horn and bell with your transformer?

 

For LionChief Plus only, you can switch it to conventional mode and run with a transformer.  Yes, you have the whistle and bell available with standard transformer controls.  For the plain LionChief, it ONLY runs with it's remote or the new 3-button LC remote.

Gary & Guns,

   Bummer I was hoping Lionel Engineered the Lion Chief Plus to run both ways, with it's own remote control, and with the Legacy Cab2.  I understand the stand alone LC package, but why not make the Plus a real big engineering Plus!

PCRR/Dave

Pine Creek Railroad posted:

Gary & Guns,

   Bummer I was hoping Lionel Engineered the Lion Chief Plus to run both ways, with it's own remote control, and with the Legacy Cab2.  I understand the stand alone LC package, but why not make the Plus a real big engineering Plus!

PCRR/Dave

COST, Plain and Simple it comes down to the MONEY. LC electronics and an underpowered wall wart are cheaper to put in starter sets, LC+ would have been better produced as TMCC/Legacy compatible, but IMHO Lionel dropped the ball.

YMMV,

Doug

Dave, if it ran with the Legacy controller, it would be a Legacy locomotive!

I tend to agree somewhat with both Doug and John above; Cost, and not competing with higher end products.  The competing point has been discussed in length in other posts in this forum.  as for cost, it would take not only the cost of the Legacy R4LC( or whatever they are using) radio board, but also the design time to incorporate an entirely different protocol in the LC+ microprocessor.  I can't see it being cost effective to place both systems in an LC+ loco, when the electronics package chosen is insanely low cost to produce as is.  

On the other hand it would also be painfully simple for Lionel to release a product that connects to a TMCC/Legacy system that would allow control of LC/LC+ engines.  I used an arduino and a salvaged LC remote for a test and things worked fine, however having the actual wireless protocol in use would make things much simpler.  

JGL

I've thought about the possibility of building a product like the Legacy PowerMaster Bridge that would connect to LC/LC+ locomotives and use TMCC commands to drive them from TMCC/Legacy, that would be cool.  As you say, having the command protocol would be really useful if you wanted to do that.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

I've thought about the possibility of building a product like the Legacy PowerMaster Bridge that would connect to LC/LC+ locomotives and use TMCC commands to drive them from TMCC/Legacy, that would be cool.  As you say, having the command protocol would be really useful if you wanted to do that.

 Hi John - Interesting proposal, I am not sure it would sell. I like the LionChief Plus for a lot of reasons but the old engineering term would be at the top of my list, "K. I. S. S."

This term can be found in most Engineering Text Books, old as dirt.

Keep It Simple Stupid = K. I. S. S.  lol

If you do go forward, I would like to be a beta tester.

Gary

Sorry Larry, anyone that suggests I'm stupid for an idea doesn't get to beta test.

I suspect you're probably correct as to the sales potential, but it's still an interesting idea.

This has been discussed, and you will see just as many post about why can't an LC be controlled by TMCC or Legacy.  So I do think it is viable from a sales perspective.  Allows LC/LC+ to be controlled by third source.  May increase LC+ purchases by Legacy users while retaining the simple for Larry approach.

(Larry, I really wonder how hard this is for you considering how well you can manipulate computer software and create slide shows with notes and such.)

The marketing concern would be does this off set Upper end Legacy sales.  Seems like it would be easy enough for Lionel to execute.   G

I think the easiest way to do it would be to make something like I suggested, the LC/LC+ Legacy bridge.  It would be a single product that would handle anything that the universal remote would handle in a similar manner.  I don't know that Lionel has any incentive to produce such a product, but it certainly wouldn't be difficult for them to do so, given they have all the specifications for the protocols involved.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

I think the easiest way to do it would be to make something like I suggested, the LC/LC+ Legacy bridge.  It would be a single product that would handle anything that the universal remote would handle in a similar manner.  I don't know that Lionel has any incentive to produce such a product, but it certainly wouldn't be difficult for them to do so, given they have all the specifications for the protocols involved.

Same thing I said a year ago when all this was being discussed.  Wouldn't surprise me if this comes out in a few years after everything levels out, and you need another product to boost sales.  Especially if customers are asking for it.  G

Hi John:

Check out this link about the history of the K.I.S.S. Principle. It is about the design process, not about you as a electrical designer. We will find out Lionel’s new direction for LionChief Plus in the next catalog for 2016, about the 2nd week of February. No suggestion being made, I am still interested in your project, because I have 3 LionChief Plus on my layout and may add more if Lionel does more with LionChief Plus in the next catalog for 2016.

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KISS_principle

Click on above screenshot to read.

Gary

Larry, I know all about the KISS principle, you need to read about emoticons.

Hi John  / Got it - They are on my MacBook Pro, as a pull down window.  The OGR Forum has always blocked these.

Gary not Larry 

Gary an informative review  thanks,

GGG,

   I agree 100% Lionel will make the interface, as time goes on and the people like us start asking for it.  I actually think this is a Lionel long range engineering plan, Guns if I were you I would beat them to it, with a simple in-expensive transfer unit of some type.  If I was an Electrical Engineer I would already be working on it.  Heck Lionel might even purchase the engineering from you!  Really like the simple Hand Held Remote for the kids, one of my 6 year old nieces was playing with my new Hallmark/Lionel Santa Toy Maker Express this afternoon and having a ball, the kid friendly Hand Held is a great sales tool, I would not eliminate it, I would do as you indicated and engineer some kind transfer box to allow additional Legacy control also.  IMO the sales market would be there, I would purchase one right now, a lot of other owners would also.

PCRR/Dave

Just out of curiosity, what do you all figure the market value of a device that allows tmcc/legacy systems to operate LionChief/Plus locomotives would be?  And do you figure such a device, offered by a third party would run into legal problems?  

JGL

There are many reasons that this would be way down my project list, John touched on a couple of them.  Also, it would be a lot more effort for an outsider to build as you'd first have to reverse engineer the LC data stream to duplicate it.  Lionel doesn't have to reverse engineer it, they have the specifications.

Guns,

   The trick is getting your hands on that pro-prioritory engineering, somebody has it some where.  These are toy trains not the Space Shuttle project, engineering security can't be that tight.

PCRR/Dave 

Dave, you gloss over the issue of patents, even if I were to "obtain" the design information in some manner.  I'm already dealing with that for my Super-Chuffer, so I know of what I speak. Remember...

Nothing is so easy as the job you imagine someone else doing.

Guns,

   Did not mean to belittle your efforts, no doubt the patent part is a spider web at best, good luck with the chuffed stuff!  It's one of the things I would really be worried about.

PCRR/Dave

poniaj posted:

Gary,

Great job on the video!  Very enjoyable, and thanks for including the type of equipment you used in its production.  A very professional presentation. 

Hi Jerry - Thanks for the compliment about the professional presentation. I have to admit, I had help. Took several classes at my local Apple Retail Store. The classes were on "How to use iMovie version 10.1.1. The instructor also had a lot of objectives for using iMovie with You Tube. There are also a lot of How Too Channels on YT, like this one.

Hope you find this Tutorial on iMovie 2016 helpful, this new version of iMovie works just like Final Cut Pro, but with out the big price tag. The reason Apple changed iMovie and made it like Final Cut Pro was to get video editors to move up to Final Cut Pro.

When it first came out it sold for over $2000, now it is $300 and iMovie comes free on Apple Computers.

Gary - Cheers from The Detroit and Mackinac Railway