Lionel 180 watt power fuse blowing

Any ideas?

Yes.

Find the short-circuit that's in your wiring or tracks.

Thanks Barry,  I checked all the wiring and it looks good.  It happens in the same spot on the track.  What causes a short in the track? 

Could it be the engines are requiring too much power?  I'm running a 20 car train with 2 PS3 engines.  It happens just past the crest of a 3% grade.

The cow catcher on a a Steamer or the snow plow on a diesel may just touch the center rail causing the short.

Try using the 135 brick on this loop as the breaker is not as sensitive. Just switch 2 wires at the TIU either input or output.

What track system are you using?

Occasionally good old tubular O gauge track will short where the center rail is crimped into the metal ties with small sections of black insulating paper between. If the insulation has a perforation, sometimes the weight of the engine passing over the track will short the center rail, and poof, you're dead.

Try replacing the suspect track section.

Rod

F and G You may be on to something.  I just put kadees on the engines and maybe the "hose" part is touching it. I will have to check it out. 

Hi Rod i'm using Atlas 3 rail

Since the fuse in the TIU is a 20A, I wonder why it goes before the PH180 breaker.  I've popped the breaker on one of the PH180's connected to my TIU a bunch of times, never took out the TIU fuse.

That is easy. With a dead short press and hold the breaker reset button down. The 20 amp fuse will blow. This only takes holding it down a couple of seconds.

Knowledge gained from experience. I think experience means learning from your mistakes. First edition TIU no fuses. Ended up scrapping the whole thing.

Wow, that is learning through the school of hard knocks.

As a wise man once said "the sad thing about experience is that you don't have it until just after you needed it."

Hope things go smoother after you nail the problem.

I have had to file the bottom of a couple of cow catchers to solve this exact problem.

Rod

Well, that makes sense, of course, I never even thought of doing that!  You're basically bypassing the PH breaker, why do that.

That is easy. With a dead short press and hold the breaker reset button down. The 20 amp fuse will blow. This only takes holding it down a couple of seconds.

Wow! Maybe that's why some have problems with their TIU's blowing components. It may be good advice to shut off the transformers before resetting the breakers on them. I've never tried resetting breakers with the transformers still on.

I reset the breaker on the PH180 by cycling it's power, not by pushing the button. 

When you reset it and it blows instantly one thinks it did not reset. Once,twice and 3rd time you stab and hold 2 seconds. 1 Mississippi 2 Mississippi and you blew it up.

That was one of the 1st TIUS made. It worked perfect for years. I replaced it and bought 2 more, one for each layout. They work perfect except for a warranty lesson learned. To make it worse they come out a year later with the current version. No problem the ones I have have work fine on my layouts. However, I belong to a internet module club (SGMA.us) where everyone owns there own stuff. If you want DCS you go buy a unit and share. Of course you would want the latest and greatest version.

The warranty lesson learned. Never plug in the accessory jack with the power on. This blew the component in front of it. I do not remember the combination, Jack hot,Fixed 1 hot, both hot. I just know everything off, now.

Hi Everyone,

I am a new to O gauge.  I have 2 Lionel 180 watt power supplies and 1 130 watt power supply running to my TIU.  One connects at Variable 1 which I set to constant voltage, one is connect to fixed one, and the last to fixed 2.  My layout has an outer loop which is controlled by fixed 1, an inner loop controlled by fixed 2, and a spur and yard controlled by variable 1.  Each section is isolated. 

Lately I have been blowing my 180 watt power supply while operating DCS on my outer loop.  If I try a reset the fuse blows in the TIU.  I am getting between 18 and 19 volts around the track.

Any ideas?<<<

While I can't argue that he should find out what is blowing the breaker, I disagree with the comment about the PH180 breaker.  It's an electronically triggered breaker and actually trips very quickly, much faster than any other transformer breaker I've seen.

That doesn't remove the fact that he should find out why the breaker trips, obviously that's not normal.

>>>While I can't argue that he should find out what is blowing the breaker, I disagree with the comment about the PH180 breaker.  It's an electronically triggered breaker and actually trips very quickly, much faster than any other transformer breaker I've seen.<<

John, I have two 180's fed into the varible channels of the first TIU, the one without internal fuses.

A quick derail did not trip the 180 breaker before the short burned out a channel on the TIU. Also, had the internals of a TMCC pullmor equipped diesel fry, let's say totally roasted before another 180 tripped.

I know newer TIU's have added fuses but the fact remains, 180 breakers are not fast enough. I've since (three years ago) installed a TMCC locon ahead of the bricks. I've not had a 180 trip since. The loc-on trips before the 180 breaker every time   The best part,  the locon resets itself after the short is fixed.

Installing those puppies will make any outdated PW transformer with mechanical breakers as safe to use as any available today.

Joe

I actually don't like the voltage returning after a trip, I want to manually reset it after fixing what is wrong.  I actually got rid of my TMCC Direct Lockons for that reason.

My bricks are very sensitive. They are stamped 2000 46 and 2000 49.

This number is stamped at the bottom on the back side. I would imagine 2000 is year of manufacture.

In an above post you stated you reset a powerhose by turing it on/off. That is manually cycling not manually re-setting.

Many people here use PW power for lights and accessories. It is very easy to have a breaker trip and a transformer buried under the layout and keep recycling because of an overheat problem. (With a big layout you do not have to see every light turning off and on.) A breaker at a lower setting too help would reduce the effective output of the transformer.

>>I actually don't like the voltage returning after a trip, I want to manually reset it after fixing what is wrong.  I actually got rid of my TMCC Direct Lockons for that reason.<<

The big advantage of auto reset is when the breaker is used in conjuntion with multiple circuit transformers (Z4000, ZW, KW). 

For me, I find better not having the entire layout or unaffected loops shut down requiring a restart after the shorted loop is fixed.

Plus,  with controller in hand, auto reset and Lionel engines restarting after the fix in neutral, call me lazy, its far quicker & easier then having to walk back to the transformer.

Joe  

>>My bricks are very sensitive. They are stamped 2000 46 and 2000 49.<<

You just think they're sensitive because they appear to trip quick.

They're fine to do what they were intended to do, protect the brick.

Not nealy quick enough to protect anything else..

Joe   

JC642,

   I have to go with gunrunner on this one, you can keep the bricks and the TMCC Direct lockons, me I want to reset my individual 10 Amp breaker, in front of my ZW or KW transformers,  they give me max voltage control.  I am old school and set up a transformer table with 10 Amp breakers safe guarding my TIU on each individual line, that must be manually reset.   I have never damaged an engine or a TIU running in this manner.

PCRR/Dave 

>>I have to go with gunrunner on this one, you can keep the bricks and the TMCC Direct lockons, me I want to reset my individual 10 Amp breaker, in front of my ZW or KW transformers,  they give me max voltage control<<

JC. I will take your advice and set up a fuse in front of my brick. (I have them along with the socket. No need to go buy a breaker)

If I use a 15 amp fuse, the PH will trip first. A 5 amp fuse, the fuse will blow. A 10 amp fuse, flip a coin.

My breaker tripping usually comes from a Lionel O72 switch where the engine bounces through touching the Cow catcher to the center rail . One little tap and pop goes the breaker.

My question is what kind of short will cause the breaker too trip so slowly that it creates a problem for all the electronics. The above is a direct short. Are there different kinds of shorts?

>>If I use a 15 amp fuse, the PH will trip first. A 5 amp fuse, the fuse will blow. A 10 amp fuse, flip a coin.<<

Not exactly.. Its easy to see how the internal 10 amp breaker will trip before a 15 amp or vice versa.

The important thing to know is, if both breakers were created to pop at 10 amps, which one of the two will pop first when it reaches that level...

On my layout the Lionel locon will pop before the internal brick breaker every time.

My guess is only a high end tester will know for sure if I'm right.

Joe

In reading another thread an intermittent short was discussed where a car was derailed and dragged causing a series of voltage spikes. To answer my own question this would be a different kind of short. 

JC. I think the Lionel lockon has TVS protection also.

Actually, unless it's well hidden, it does not.  I took one apart and looked it over pretty carefully.

We're talking about protection from transients here, and you want the power cycling on and off?  Sorry, but I don't see that as nearly as safe an option as fixing the problem and then turning the power back on.  If the power comes back on just as you're moving stuff around, you can easily generate transients, the very thing that kills electronics!

gunrunnerjohn,

   Yes and with the manual reset breakers, this can never happen, got to admit this is an odd ball situation that seldom if ever happens even without the manual breakers.

If you want to protect your layout even further use lighter breakers.  So far my 10 Amp breakers have worked very well.  I did read some time back that not all 10 Amp breakers are the same, mine however have always tripped slightly below the 10 Amp point.  Having them trip higher than their rating could be a problem.

For me I will stick with the manual reset breaker bank,  that I purchased from Scotts Odds & Ends, they work well for me.

PCRR/Dave