Lionel 65’ Mill Gondola in the 2017 Signature Edition catalog

naveenrajan posted:

Jeff78rr posted:

Here's one, not sure if this is a Greenbrier car or not

 

Jeff,

The sides on Greenbrier mill gondolas appear to be closer to the rail at the middle & tapering up around the trucks, even though the floor inside the car appears flat throughout the length of the car from the sketch on the Greenbrier website. The Thrall gondolas on the BNSF website appear similar to the mill gondola in the photo you posted, with the sides of uniform height.

Also, Greenbrier loves welding & their mill gondola seems to have no rivets but most of the BNSF mill gondolas in found on RRpicturearchives seem to have rivets where the floor meets the sides.

These are just my opinion.

Thanks,

Naveen Rajan

My resin cast version of the BNSF pictured above made in the USA.

It does look like this will be a decent model to make a straight side version if you're willing to break out some tools!  Definitely hoping Lionel doesn't dive too far off into the fantasy world with their newer scale models, and hoping Atlas will tone it down a bit.  Obviously the $$$ talks and if we're willing to buy bright shiny models that aren't prototypical then it's our own fault for supporting that behavior. 

I do think the lack of models of actual prototypes in O Scale helps the whole fantasy model market because with limited models, limited manufacturers it's easier to say close enough, good enough.

As long as they offer real schemes alongside the fantasy ones, why does it matter? How does it affect you? Buy the real ones and let those of us who like the fantasy stuff buy that. You have this "me me me" mentality. It's like the AC-9 getting daylight paint. Yes it's fantasy. Obviously they're doing it because it'll sell. What's the big deal? Does it really hurt your feelings that much? Get over yourself...

IMO, It doesn't matter prototype or fantasy if a particular paint scheme, model, is selected by a manufacturer for production and it doesn't sell well, which in turn influences/limits their future investment in O Scale, then that is what hurts us all in the long run.  There are so few products yet alone those that really are innovative and showcase the scales advantages, manufacturers invest a lot of time/$$$ in research and development that whatever is selected for production must sell well enough for numerous runs (At least for plastic/diecast models) to pay for that investment.   If they can make that $$$ in fantasy schemes while giving those that want prototype models with prototype paint schemes and detail, then ultimately I'm ok with that.  Just hoping that regardless of what models, paint schemes are selected that enough sell to keep seeing new products!

I give credit to Ryan and Lionel for bringing out this modern version of the 65-66' mill gondola obviously there are a limited number of prototypically correct paint schemes for the car at this time, hopefully it will be dimensionally accurate [within the context of the 1/4" scale tooling process]. i would not expect full under body [brake rigging] detailing based on more recent Lionel "scale"offerings but the prototype is basic enough that the model should look good, bear in mind Lionel is still a 3 rail based business with running gear that must address those parameters. JMO as a modern era but long time 2 rail modeler.

R Nelson posted:

      I am also very intrigued by this announcement.   This car promises to be a winner...if done correctly.    I'm glad that Lionel is stepping up to the plate in bringing out a model of this car, and only hope that they do this car with not only the correct road names,  but the correct road numbers.   There are numerous sources of info. available that Lionel does not need to "pull" numbers out of the air for these.  These "fantasy" paint jobs need not apply if Lionel is going to be considered a credible model manufacturer!     There are enough railroads with these gondolas, that there really is not a need for faux paint jobs...just my opinion.         It is too bad that Atlas, under their current leadership, is caving into the "fantasy"  BS, in order to sell more cars!     And lets hope Lionel stays true to prototype with these cars.    I do certainly look forward to seeing the pilot models.......

I am also intrigued......that some of you folks think Lionel's primary business is producing prototypical cars. Last time I looked they produced 3 rail toy trains. If they can manage to do something that satisfies both 3R and 2R markets, they do so, but if you folks (2 railers) think you are the people driving their business, you are delusional. This is in NO way meant to denigrate Lionel or their product line,  but it is what it is.

Simon

Simon,

You're right, but it's just part of the business. Make a scale equipment, receive scale critiques, and certainly hopes that they put more scale detail then less as with a lot of their 3 rail toy trains.  I have no delusions myself that that Lionel, Atlas or even MTH's primary business is producing prototypical equipment.  But you stick your toe in that space you will get the good and bad!

I think this again is a sign that there are very few scale offerings, at least from the higher volume manufacturers,  that when they go down that road the hopes that they do the right things come front and center.

Mike,

Saying what you want is one thing, taking someone to task for what they produce is another.

Simon

 

 

Simon Winter posted:

R Nelson posted:

      I am also very intrigued by this announcement.   This car promises to be a winner...if done correctly.    I'm glad that Lionel is stepping up to the plate in bringing out a model of this car, and only hope that they do this car with not only the correct road names,  but the correct road numbers.   There are numerous sources of info. available that Lionel does not need to "pull" numbers out of the air for these.  These "fantasy" paint jobs need not apply if Lionel is going to be considered a credible model manufacturer!     There are enough railroads with these gondolas, that there really is not a need for faux paint jobs...just my opinion.         It is too bad that Atlas, under their current leadership, is caving into the "fantasy"  BS, in order to sell more cars!     And lets hope Lionel stays true to prototype with these cars.    I do certainly look forward to seeing the pilot models.......

I am also intrigued......that some of you folks think Lionel's primary business is producing prototypical cars. Last time I looked they produced 3 rail toy trains. If they can manage to do something that satisfies both 3R and 2R markets, they do so, but if you folks (2 railers) think you are the people driving their business, you are delusional. This is in NO way meant to denigrate Lionel or their product line,  but it is what it is.

Simon

I believe you could substitute 3 rail scalers  for 2 railers as those of us in the hobby for a while are well aware of MTH,Lionel etc  target markets [ if its not 0-27 it must be O scale, if all our paint schemes sell out thats what our market wants ] it seems even Lionel is now looking to market 2 rail conversion kits. JMO

With the discussion for far, has anyone other than Lionel, figured out which of the offerings are prototypical, & which are fantasy?

So far, from the Greenbrier website, link in my original post, I know that the CSX 491600 (Lionel #: 6-83319) is a prototypical number, color & CSX had this Greenbrier car & I am speculating that the other 2 numbers, CSX 491616 (Lionel #: 6-848586) & CSX 491638 (Lionel #: 6-84587), should also close enough. So, I plan on getting all 3 road numbers in CSX colors. Maybe if Lionel does a rerun at a later date & offers BNSF gondolas in the black color with the modern BNSF “Swoosh” logo, similar to ones Scratchbuilder1-48 built, I would get them too.

These are just my opinion.

Thanks,

Naveen Rajan

 

Of the six schemes offered, it looks like only the CSX and UP have real prototypes.  The CNW cars are similar in that they have a deeper side between the trucks.  The NS, BNSF, and SP numbers chosen are not Gunderson cars.  They all have what I'll car a straight side, with all the side ribs the same length, like the Thrall design.

Life is a series of compromises, and the model train hobby is no different.  In the end, it's all about you buying what makes you happy, after all if you don't and get frustrated then you're in the wrong hobby.  As long as we keep buying stuff from manufacturers that represents more compromise than makes us happy the manufacturers will continue to invest in those products.  O scale is one of the most fractured scales in a lot of ways, which hurts the overall growth of the scale.  Lots of competing priorities for a manufacturer trying to offer products that make different modelers happy in many segments.

As said on this forum many times, you have really 2 choices in model trains, build it yourself or buy what makes you happy, both will have compromises, but you're in control of what you can live with and makes you happy!

  

Simon Winter posted:

Mike,

Saying what you want is one thing, taking someone to task for what they produce is another.

Simon

 

 

IMO, It's only fair if you provided feedback on what products you would like to see them produce. Purchased some of their products, provided feedback on how they can make them better.  Now you're at a crossroads, you're unhappy to some level, but are you happy enough to stop buying a product unless the manufacturer makes the corrections you suggest?   You certainly can go down the build it yourself route, or as many do, keep buying the product and either making the corrections yourself and/or potentially being unhappy living with the issues because the manufacturer deems them good enough for the segment they are building the product. 

There will be some level of transformation over the next 20 years in model trains, let's hope it's not to the level of becoming irrelevant, but regardless in O Scale in particular the desire to have more scale and prototypical products isn't going to go away and will continue to increase.

hibar posted:

I give credit to Ryan and Lionel for bringing out this modern version of the 65-66' mill gondola obviously there are a limited number of prototypically correct paint schemes for the car at this time, hopefully it will be dimensionally accurate [within the context of the 1/4" scale tooling process]. i would not expect full under body [brake rigging] detailing based on more recent Lionel "scale"offerings but the prototype is basic enough that the model should look good, bear in mind Lionel is still a 3 rail based business with running gear that must address those parameters. JMO as a modern era but long time 2 rail modeler.

The latest Lionel 86' Hi-Cube we purchased has less underbody detail than the one from a year prior.

big train posted:

Of the six schemes offered, it looks like only the CSX and UP have real prototypes.  The CNW cars are similar in that they have a deeper side between the trucks.  The NS, BNSF, and SP numbers chosen are not Gunderson cars.  They all have what I'll car a straight side, with all the side ribs the same length, like the Thrall design.

I believe you are correct on CSX and UP being the only prototype paint schemes currently offered, the UP pics had 2012 build dates, for future reference Gunderson Industries could probably provide a list of buyers of these cars, if Lionel has done their homework they should have a prototype list already for future reruns.

IMHO This car looks great and I model in Proto48. While I understand that not all of the paint schemes on this car are correct, even the ones that aren't are well done. I have other issues with the O scale market, having come from HO scale and N, but I have come to appreciate when a company like Lionel goes through the effort of making a relatively accurate model when their bread and butter customers can barely tell a boxcar from a coal hopper and just don't care. It kind of puts O scale back where HO scale was in the 70s and 80s, where you had to either make due with what there was, or paint and letter it yourself.

Scratchbuilder1-48 posted:

I have been making these for a few years in resin , in resin I can create a "sag" in the center to depict years of hauling scrap . I would see these in the CSX yard even with bulkheads and one day saw a brand new BNSF fresh . I used PECOS RIVER roller brg trucks , Wiseman Model Services makes the chain clasps and the air hose glad hands . The inside length is 66ft. or 16.5 inches, various railroads have full ladders on both ends , some have grab irons , some have welded on tie down loops on the top edge ,bulkheads , what ever the service was going to be . I modeled mine from real train cars  I photographed .

I would love to know the technique you used for the rust on the inside of the bodies. I have worked around gondolas for some time and you nailed the dirty, scratched rust look, bam! I haven't perused these forums much as I am more of a FB dweller, but your work looks awesome!

 

“When will Lionel start offering ‘scale’ wheels“? I hate to break it to you, but Scale wheels in O scale, aren’t scale ... these are ... just saying ...

Oh, and the wheels on “scale” wheels are too far apart too ... just saying ... if y’all want to nitpick 😂

“When will Lionel start offering ‘scale’ wheels“? I hate to break it to you, but Scale wheels in O scale, aren’t scale ... these are ... just saying ...

Oh, and the wheels on “scale” wheels are too far apart too ... just saying ... if y’all want to nitpick 😂

 

I couldn't care less what the wheels look like. when you operate a layout like mine the last things you would be looking at is the wheels unless someone puts a car into the dirt. 

That’s the thing - once you get used to seeing a more correct wheel profile from the end, it’s hard to unsee the wider traditional wheels.  I experienced the same when I was still in HO after I started using “Code 88” wheelsets. 

I know a few O scalers that have experimented with lower profile (thinner) wheels on OW5, and they look really good.

Nobody on here as of yet showed a view of the complete underside to see the details or lack there of .

Scratchbuilder1-48 posted:

Nobody on here as of yet showed a view of the complete underside to see the details or lack there of .

They are pretty basic, but the way I look at it I’m not building contest quality models with these. If you can see the underside, the car derailed. 

No piping on brake rigging, molded main brake components, Lionel stays very basic on underbody detail no low hanging visible piping also no cut levers or air hoses on car ends nothing too fragile, still a good accurate scaled car. just saying !

...all things that can be added by a modeler.  My personal standards are to add representations of the things you can see from the top, side or end without rolling the car over.  For operational models, I don’t worry about hidden details.

HotrodLincoln posted:

“When will Lionel start offering ‘scale’ wheels“? I hate to break it to you, but Scale wheels in O scale, aren’t scale ... these are ... just saying ...

Oh, and the wheels on “scale” wheels are too far apart too ... just saying ... if y’all want to nitpick 😂

Fantastic additions for an even more prototypical operation!   

However, at first glance that coupler trip pin doesn't fit into the picture, along with missing air line hoses and cut lever bars

Not trying to nitpick...  Seriously a fantastic offering from Lionel.

Mike,

My car is a work in progress and I intend to remove the trip pin, add brake lines and cut levers. My point is that while some get all worked up about particular details aren't there or the level of detail. If you are going to go down that road, then ... it's Ow5 folks, there is a MAJOR GLARING detail that is wrong ... the gauge of the wheels. Now, it may not worry you, and that's fine, but the wheel size and gauge is a detail you can see. The underbody detail on a car like this should be invisible, unless the car derails. Now, if I were scatchbuilding the model, that would be different. I will add the sundry details on the railgon I'm working on, but on a massed produced model that looks real nice and is accurate for the most part. I don't have a problem with this car. I would love to see another General Purpose 50' tank car, beyond the 25.5k trinity that Atlas made, but I am happy with that car too. 

The problem with THOSE cars, unlike this one, is that for it to really look realistic, a lot more work needs to be done, because the bolster is readily visible, beyond the end of the car. The Lionel Aluminum ACF Covered Hoppers are another example of a really nicely done series of cars that don't require much to look good, whereas the Atlas 5161 Covered Hoppers are a lot more involved ... to do right.

I said it previously in this post, Modern O Scale\Proto48 is in the same place (actually a little worse) that HO was in in the 70-80s. We should be happy when anyone comes out with anything new, particularly with the level of detail they are trying to put into the models. Kudos to Lionel for trying because their clientele ... the people who pay their bills, don't care three licks about whether a car has the correct underframe details ... or any at all. They would probably sell more Beeps with Micky Mouse hanging out of the cab hurling little plastic presents out of the cab window at random intervals, not with a prototypical 65' modern mill gondola that will have difficulty going around O27 track ...

Jim

Ps - The above comment about Ow5 being said, the modeling in Scratchbuilder1-48's photos is some of the best modern modeling I've seen.

Have the TTX/Railgon 65' Mill gon's from Lionel been released yet? I see back orders are available for this model&would hate to miss it.

On a similar note,I assume Lionel will be rerunning most of the Railroad names that have already been released in the 1st release of these great models?

Thanks to all in advance for your replies.

Al Hummel

I see some dealers have them in stock as of today. I would grab them while you can.  

HotrodLincoln posted:

Mike,

My car is a work in progress and I intend to remove the trip pin, add brake lines and cut levers. My point is that while some get all worked up about particular details aren't there or the level of detail. If you are going to go down that road, then ... it's Ow5 folks, there is a MAJOR GLARING detail that is wrong ... the gauge of the wheels. Now, it may not worry you, and that's fine, but the wheel size and gauge is a detail you can see. The underbody detail on a car like this should be invisible, unless the car derails. Now, if I were scatchbuilding the model, that would be different. I will add the sundry details on the railgon I'm working on, but on a massed produced model that looks real nice and is accurate for the most part. I don't have a problem with this car. I would love to see another General Purpose 50' tank car, beyond the 25.5k trinity that Atlas made, but I am happy with that car too. 

The problem with THOSE cars, unlike this one, is that for it to really look realistic, a lot more work needs to be done, because the bolster is readily visible, beyond the end of the car. The Lionel Aluminum ACF Covered Hoppers are another example of a really nicely done series of cars that don't require much to look good, whereas the Atlas 5161 Covered Hoppers are a lot more involved ... to do right.

I said it previously in this post, Modern O Scale\Proto48 is in the same place (actually a little worse) that HO was in in the 70-80s. We should be happy when anyone comes out with anything new, particularly with the level of detail they are trying to put into the models. Kudos to Lionel for trying because their clientele ... the people who pay their bills, don't care three licks about whether a car has the correct underframe details ... or any at all. They would probably sell more Beeps with Micky Mouse hanging out of the cab hurling little plastic presents out of the cab window at random intervals, not with a prototypical 65' modern mill gondola that will have difficulty going around O27 track ...

Jim

Ps - The above comment about Ow5 being said, the modeling in Scratchbuilder1-48's photos is some of the best modern modeling I've seen.

Jim,

I certainly don't disagree with any of your points, unfortunately like you say, unless we stop buying the toy trains that are produced in O Scale, we'll never see a change on a broader scale across the mainstream manufacturers.  As you know O scale isn't the only scale that suffers from being based on 5' gauge.  Fortunately, we have a lot of great model builders in O Scale that can take what is produced and make it better, or even start from scratch!   I'm glad there are modelers like yourself and others that care enough to help manufacturers and other modelers understand those discrepancies by sharing your thoughts as well as producing some parts that make it easier for others to achieve more accurate models.   As you note, not everyone cares for this level of accuracy as that is one of the great things about hobbies, each person can decide how far they want to take it and what's acceptable to them.  

I too would like to see some of the crude oil Trinity 31K tank cars myself, but generally agree there are many other variations of tank cars that would awesome to supplement what we already have in the RTR offerings. 

I am big fan of Bernie's work and definitely agree with you on his skills!   I own many of his masterpieces...  and will continue to buy more that fit my needs.

JEFF78RR,

Thank you for the info. Can you name a few dealers? I buy from Deichman's Depot,Caboose Stop Hobbies,Karl's Trains,Klein's. Can't get a reply from Caboose Stop,don't understand that.

Thank you.

Al

Mike&Jim,

I too wish Lionel and other manufacturers would make more of products,"2Rail Friendly."  I've thought,"Boy I wish O Scale had this type of hopper and or tanker," then I happen over to Lionel's Site and THERE IT IS!! 

I understand the Weaver Lionscale cars and the 65' Mill Gons are Lionel's start to see how 2rail sales go. The Lionel covered hoppers fill a big gap in the O Scale market&wish they could be as easily converted to 2 rail as their mill gon's but everything has it's start and O Scale's  making some great moves ahead. H&E Shelf Couplers,and ground throw switchstands that work just as the Prototype 'stands do are real advances. The switchstands are a 1st in any scale,what a great thing for O Scale that this 1st happened here.

Just my opinions,of course.

As Always.

Al Hummel 

Al, which switchstands are you referring to?  

Also, I wish Kadee would get the stick out and do O scale shelfs - I’m sure I’m not the only one that has been pestering them about it.  I know Jimmy is coming out with Protocraft-style shelf couplers, but I’d like to see more compatable US made ones from Kadee.

Alan Hummel posted:

JEFF78RR,

Thank you for the info. Can you name a few dealers? I buy from Deichman's Depot,Caboose Stop Hobbies,Karl's Trains,Klein's. Can't get a reply from Caboose Stop,don't understand that.

Thank you.

Al

Al,

One of the better Lionel dealers is Charles Ro.  I would highly recommend them. 

HEAVYDUTY,

The groundthrows are from Larry Stanley. Go to his email at:aatlarry@earthlink.net. This will take you to his website. He has 1 model out and is working on many more models. Larry treats his customers as family.

I been pestering Sam Clarke @Kadee about shelf couplers,too. Sam assures me they're on Kadee's "to do list,"but Kadee has more pressing matters 1st.

Jimmy Booth's couplers are just like Protocraft's model E coupler,except have safety shelfs on them. In my experiments with the Protocraft&Kadee couplers,they both mate flawlessly.

As Always,

Al Hummel

Mike,

Thank you.

Al Hummel

Alan Hummel posted:

HEAVYDUTY,

The groundthrows are from Larry Stanley. Go to his email at:aatlarry@earthlink.net. This will take you to his website. He has 1 model out and is working on many more models. Larry treats his customers as family.

I been pestering Sam Clarke @Kadee about shelf couplers,too. Sam assures me they're on Kadee's "to do list,"but Kadee has more pressing matters 1st.

Jimmy Booth's couplers are just like Protocraft's model E coupler,except have safety shelfs on them. In my experiments with the Protocraft&Kadee couplers,they both mate flawlessly.

As Always,

Al Hummel

Hi, Al  -

That was the ground throw I knew about (in fact, I think you were the one who told me about them.) I wanted to be sure I wasn’t missing another one.  I contacted him last week asking about day targets and bow handles.

i use Protocraft couplers exclusively for my steam era modeling, and I don’t find them to play nicely with Kadees when switching - it’s one or the other with me.  I’m trying to stay with Kadees only for my modern stuff; I just pestered Sam again about them.  I grovel to Kadee management every year at Trainfest...

Thanks!

Ken

Mike DeBerg posted:

Alan Hummel posted:

JEFF78RR,

Thank you for the info. Can you name a few dealers? I buy from Deichman's Depot,Caboose Stop Hobbies,Karl's Trains,Klein's. Can't get a reply from Caboose Stop,don't understand that.

Thank you.

Al

Al,

One of the better Lionel dealers is Charles Ro.  I would highly recommend them. 

I just received the two clean black BNSF “swoosh” gons from the brand new run today from Charles Ro.  They were extremely easy to deal with.

HEAVYDUTY,

Yes,Charles Ro had the best pricing out of all the other spots I checked. Will be checking back there more often. Wish they had larger Atlas inventory.

What did Larry@ALL ABOARD TRAINS say about the Bow Handles as far as a possible release time frame? I know he's working on day targets now.

About the Protocraft couplers,did you use the new improved couplers? My Kadee and Protocraft couple on straight track just fine,never used any on curves because I don't have any curves up yet. Protocraft to Protocraft couple on 45" curves with no issues. I'm going all Protocraft style as soon as I can afford it.

As Always,

Al Hummel

 

No ETA on bow handles, or even a commitment to them - he is only looking at the possibility. My personal ideal would be a Pohl New Century with bow handle, and internal electrical contacts to control a switch motor. I suspect I’ll need to come up with that myself.

I'm not happy with switching using a mix of Protocraft and Kadee couplers - I hit on a few issues. 

Illinois Central and Norfolk & Western had similar gondola. They can make those railroads.