Lionel 65’ Mill Gondola in the 2017 Signature Edition catalog

Could the variation be traced to the inclusion or exclusion of the couplers in the length measurement?

---PCJ

I don't think weaver made a gondola like so?

Far as I know, all new.

The gondola is such an important piece of equipment, a real workhorse of the railroads, but so overlooked in the O scale world. I'm very happy to see these.

Thank you for the information & various technical posts too.

By "convertible to scale couplers",they didn't mention Kadee compatible coupler pads,or roller bearing 2 rail trucks. Wonderful model that I'm VERY HAPPY to see,but I wonder how the conversions will go.(?) Can Atlas trucks be substituted? Do we have to take the car apart like MTH?

Thank you. Again NICE car!!

Al Hummel

Weaver never produced a gondola of this length so the Lionel statement is correct, the Greenbriar/Gunderson pic and drawings are most likely their latest offerings and the 71' 3.5" is over the pulling faces of the couplers [prototype drawing] generally standard couplers and draft boxes add 5' to overall length of real cars [cushion gear obviously adds more] Lionel being a true 3 rail mfg does take some liberties with dimensions and rd names [ if its not 0-27 it must be O scale] for a variety of mfg reasons, short of getting one and measuring it out its hard to say, if Lionel typically states length on their rolling stock over the coupler faces [lobster claws] then 17" equals 68', 3/4 "+ short of the prototype, still a nice looking car in what appears to be some prototypical paint schemes. Access Rail Pictures Archives with rd name and number to determine which paint schemes are accurate. I would try one if I was interested in adding a 66' gondola to my roster for lack of anything better out there today [ watch Atlas announce one at York !]  JMO

I like this car. Thanks for the heads up. Noticed they're cataloging each road number separately. I'm in. Another one that looks promising is the "theater" business car with camera. A bit pricey, but looks like it could be a lot of fun.

Lionel will most likely supply mounting pads for Kadee compatible coupler draft gear boxes as they have done in the past for their scale coupler convertable offerings.  I don’t think there is a big draw for Lionel to start making scale couplers as the 3RS and 2-Rail market is still pretty lean (but appears to be growing ) compared to the straight 3-Rail bread and butter business.  Besides, no one seems to like the OEM scale couplers supplied by “the other guys” anyway.  Therefore, Lionel can just let the scale modelers supply their own couplers and they won’t be able to complain about the scale coupler – at least not to Lionel...

For the trucks, Lionel is coming out with a new truck design to support both 3-Rail and 2-Rail wheelsets that is quite different than what has been offered in the past.  From the photos in the link below, it does not look as though the bolster design will permit a direct swap with Atlas trucks.  However, a close look at the photo of the new scale replacement wheelsets Lionel plans to offer shows that these new trucks will support spinning roller bearing caps as in the past.  One downside, if you want to look at it that way, is that the new truck bolster is plastic (between the side frames) and not metal, although the new design does appear to make conversions rather easy as it looks like you no longer need to remove the springs in the sideframes when swapping out wheelsets.  I have not seen any pricing on the Lionel scale replacement wheelsets, but from the photos they do look like rather nice CNC machined wheels – my guess is an MSRP around $19.99 for a set of four – about the same as NWSL.

https://ogrforum.com/t...ew-lionel-for-2-rail

Scott

Scott,

According to 2017 Signature Edition catalog, Lionel is only offering the conversion wheelsets for their 50-ton or 70-ton trucks. So you could convert Lionel 86’ boxcars, 89’ autoracks & cars of earlier eras but not this car. The prototype 66’ mill gondola has a Gross Weight rating of 286,000 lbs which would need 100-ton trucks. So, the easiest option for converting to 2-rail could be Atlas-O trucks or if one has the ability to paint, American Scale Models is offering unpainted brass 100-ton trucks or use the NWSL wheelsets as you suggested.

These are just my opinion.

Thanks,

Naveen Rajan

Thought I'd take a quick break from the desk to check in on the Forum tonight and while I'm at it answer a few questions here - or at least confirm some of what others have already surmised.  This was one of my favorite projects for the catalog, both because I'm a fan of the more modern era personally but also because I think this car will fill a very large void in the current marketplace!

Yes, it is all new tooling. And in fact, based on the Greenbrier design. In the research for these cars, you'll see the same cars often listed as either 65 or 66 feet - seems to depend on who's holding the tape measure and what point on the body they are referencing. Semantics aside, at the end of the day, the model is scaled from the prototype plans. 

As far as scale coupler and two-rail conversion go, conversion to Kadee couplers and boxes will be easy. The floor of the car is designed to accept the box. I cannot promise what minimum curve you'll be able to take with body mounted couplers. When we have a physical tooling sample to test on, we will let you know. For wheels, these cars will use the new trucks designed for our LionScale cars and the conversion kits available in our catalog will make the process easy. These new trucks are designed for the conversion and are much easier than the current scale trucks! You could also substitute NWSL wheels if desired.

These prototype cars are somewhat sparse on detail, but we've included all the important pieces on the model - separate ladders and grab irons, and such. We did take some liberties on the paint schemes offered based on the car prototype. We wanted a nice mix of prototype-if somewhat "boring" - and very similar and more traditionally popular roadnames that we know are also in demand. If these cars do well, have no fear that there will be more roadnames coming down the line.

The design on the cars is complete, tooling will be starting after the Chineese New Year holiday and I'll be sure to reinvigorate this thread later this year when we see the first tooling shots. (Hopefully in time for April York.) Hope you all enjoy these and looking forward to hearing more of your comments.

OK - back to work!

I will be in for a couple.  Thanks for doing this car. 

naveenrajan posted:

Scott,

According to 2017 Signature Edition catalog, Lionel is only offering the conversion wheelsets for their 50-ton or 70-ton trucks. So you could convert Lionel 86’ boxcars, 89’ autoracks & cars of earlier eras but not this car. The prototype 66’ mill gondola has a Gross Weight rating of 286,000 lbs which would need 100-ton trucks. So, the easiest option for converting to 2-rail could be Atlas-O trucks or if one has the ability to paint, American Scale Models is offering unpainted brass 100-ton trucks or use the NWSL wheelsets as you suggested.

These are just my opinion.

Thanks,

Naveen Rajan

The ASM trucks  are $55 a pair + Shipping, close to the"street" price of the cars themselves, just saying!

Conrail6358 posted:

Thought I'd take a quick break from the desk to check in on the Forum tonight and while I'm at it answer a few questions here - or at least confirm some of what others have already surmised.  This was one of my favorite projects for the catalog, both because I'm a fan of the more modern era personally but also because I think this car will fill a very large void in the current marketplace!

Yes, it is all new tooling. And in fact, based on the Greenbrier design. In the research for these cars, you'll see the same cars often listed as either 65 or 66 feet - seems to depend on who's holding the tape measure and what point on the body they are referencing. Semantics aside, at the end of the day, the model is scaled from the prototype plans. 

As far as scale coupler and two-rail conversion go, conversion to Kadee couplers and boxes will be easy. The floor of the car is designed to accept the box. I cannot promise what minimum curve you'll be able to take with body mounted couplers. When we have a physical tooling sample to test on, we will let you know. For wheels, these cars will use the new trucks designed for our LionScale cars and the conversion kits available in our catalog will make the process easy. These new trucks are designed for the conversion and are much easier than the current scale trucks! You could also substitute NWSL wheels if desired.

These prototype cars are somewhat sparse on detail, but we've included all the important pieces on the model - separate ladders and grab irons, and such. We did take some liberties on the paint schemes offered based on the car prototype. We wanted a nice mix of prototype-if somewhat "boring" - and very similar and more traditionally popular roadnames that we know are also in demand. If these cars do well, have no fear that there will be more roadnames coming down the line.

The design on the cars is complete, tooling will be starting after the Chineese New Year holiday and I'll be sure to reinvigorate this thread later this year when we see the first tooling shots. (Hopefully in time for April York.) Hope you all enjoy these and looking forward to hearing more of your comments.

OK - back to work!

The current Greenbrier Industries website lists the cars as 66' Mill gondolas with an inside length of 66'.

hibar posted:

naveenrajan posted:

Scott,

According to 2017 Signature Edition catalog, Lionel is only offering the conversion wheelsets for their 50-ton or 70-ton trucks. So you could convert Lionel 86’ boxcars, 89’ autoracks & cars of earlier eras but not this car. The prototype 66’ mill gondola has a Gross Weight rating of 286,000 lbs which would need 100-ton trucks. So, the easiest option for converting to 2-rail could be Atlas-O trucks or if one has the ability to paint, American Scale Models is offering unpainted brass 100-ton trucks or use the NWSL wheelsets as you suggested.

These are just my opinion.

Thanks,

Naveen Rajan

The ASM trucks  are $55 a pair + Shipping, close to the"street" price of the cars themselves, just saying!

Hibar,

I only buy a few O-Scale freight cars each year & I would have bought those unpainted O-Scale trucks if I has the skill or equipment to paint them. I used to buy 2-rail, painted, freight car trucks from Protocraft & they used to cost $65 / pair + shipping, which was getting closer to the price of the Lionel Husky cars I used them on.

I asked Bill Davis (American Scale Models) at last year’s Chicago O-Scale meet if he had plans to offer painted trucks like some of his other trucks but he did not & as nice as these trucks are, I wouldn’t be pleased if I ruined them by painting with a paintbrush.

These are just my opinion.

Thanks,

Naveen Rajan

These look great but the fact that they require an extra $20 for scale wheel conversion kits per car plus another $4 for Kadee couplers will probably deter me from ordering any much the same way that MTH 50' hi-cube boxcars do.

I'll wait to see if Atlas will ever make a Thrall 2743 gondola like they do in N and HO.

The two Weaver gondolas produced were the 52'6" 70 -ton war emergency gondola and a 40' wood-sided gondola based off their the 40' flat car.  Atlas has announced thr release of the war emergency gondola.  I believe that this gondola was the first freight car that Weaver produced in China.  

Jan

If you want to see Atlas O produce the Thrall Car 2743 gondola or the Evans Products Gondola, you will have to contact everybody using Facebook, Twitter, e-mail, phone, and in person at the model railroad shows.

There are SOO LINE gondolas similar to this gondola still in operation.

Andrew

I'll order the CNW ones and maybe a couple of UPs as well. I love gondolas, you can haul so much in them and unloading us just as unique

K line, MTH, Petersen/ Atlas, Lionel PS-5 52 foot gondolas are all pretty much the same.

Weaver made an old "Wartime" gondola.

I've been waiting forever for these

naveenrajan posted:

hibar posted:

naveenrajan posted:

Scott,

According to 2017 Signature Edition catalog, Lionel is only offering the conversion wheelsets for their 50-ton or 70-ton trucks. So you could convert Lionel 86’ boxcars, 89’ autoracks & cars of earlier eras but not this car. The prototype 66’ mill gondola has a Gross Weight rating of 286,000 lbs which would need 100-ton trucks. So, the easiest option for converting to 2-rail could be Atlas-O trucks or if one has the ability to paint, American Scale Models is offering unpainted brass 100-ton trucks or use the NWSL wheelsets as you suggested.

These are just my opinion.

Thanks,

Naveen Rajan

The ASM trucks  are $55 a pair + Shipping, close to the"street" price of the cars themselves, just saying!

Hibar,

I only buy a few O-Scale freight cars each year & I would have bought those unpainted O-Scale trucks if I has the skill or equipment to paint them. I used to buy 2-rail, painted, freight car trucks from Protocraft & they used to cost $65 / pair + shipping, which was getting closer to the price of the Lionel Husky cars I used them on.

I asked Bill Davis (American Scale Models) at last year’s Chicago O-Scale meet if he had plans to offer painted trucks like some of his other trucks but he did not & as nice as these trucks are, I wouldn’t be pleased if I ruined them by painting with a paintbrush.

These are just my opinion.

Thanks,

Naveen Rajan

High end trucks for sure,if you want to paint easily and inexpensively Tamiya Model paints in the spray cans put a great finish on brass. I have been spray painting for a long time and never used a spray can until I tried their Primer for lack of an available Floquil or Scalecoat primer. Super finish on a brass hopper, buy a can and try it out on anything just for practice, you cannot go wrong painting trucks. JMO

I have been making these for a few years in resin , in resin I can create a "sag" in the center to depict years of hauling scrap . I would see these in the CSX yard even with bulkheads and one day saw a brand new BNSF fresh . I used PECOS RIVER roller brg trucks , Wiseman Model Services makes the chain clasps and the air hose glad hands . The inside length is 66ft. or 16.5 inches, various railroads have full ladders on both ends , some have grab irons , some have welded on tie down loops on the top edge ,bulkheads , what ever the service was going to be . I modeled mine from real train cars  I photographed .

Scratchbuilder1-48 posted:

I have been making these for a few years in resin , in resin I can create a "sag" in the center to depict years of hauling scrap . I would see these in the CSX yard even with bulkheads and one day saw a brand new BNSF fresh . I used PECOS RIVER roller brg trucks , Wiseman Model Services makes the chain clasps and the air hose glad hands . The inside length is 66ft. or 16.5 inches, various railroads have full ladders on both ends , some have grab irons , some have welded on tie down loops on the top edge ,bulkheads , what ever the service was going to be . I modeled mine from real train cars  I photographed .

Very nice work!!

Great modeling as all your projects have been, it remains to be seen how well the Lionel delivered car will be in terms of detail and dimensional accuracy, I see "street pricing" on this car at 25% less so wheelsets should bring the cost up tp MSRP, as a long time 2 railer I will wait and see. JMO

Conrail6358 posted:

Thought I'd take a quick break from the desk to check in on the Forum tonight and while I'm at it answer a few questions here - or at least confirm some of what others have already surmised.  This was one of my favorite projects for the catalog, both because I'm a fan of the more modern era personally but also because I think this car will fill a very large void in the current marketplace!

Yes, it is all new tooling. And in fact, based on the Greenbrier design. In the research for these cars, you'll see the same cars often listed as either 65 or 66 feet - seems to depend on who's holding the tape measure and what point on the body they are referencing. Semantics aside, at the end of the day, the model is scaled from the prototype plans.

Prototype info can be found here.

http://www.gbrx.com/products-s...66-mill-gondola-car/

All the modern, mass produced O scale gondola models can be seen here.

https://ogrforum.com/t...t-car-guide-gondolas

The CNW road numbers can be checked using www.rrpicturearchives.net.

I checked the CNW roster on RR Picture Archives and found a gap in the gondola series where the 342000-342999 gondolas would fit.

Andrew

Correct me if I'm wrong ?  I thought I read somewhere that mill gondola,s where narrower than regular gondola's ?

Clem

Very happy to see these mill gons.  Will get a bundle of these cars! Thank you Lionel!   I don't expect them to be anywhere near as nice as Bernie's cars, but they will help fill the large void for more modern rolling stock.  

I am interested in these 66’ mill gondolas in BNSF colors but so far, I have been unable to find out if BNSF owned the Greenbrier cars in any of the 3 road numbers offered in the Lionel catalog. I did find on the BNSF website that they do have 66’ mill gondolas but they were made by Thrall, not Greenbrier/ Gunderson & they are in the road number range, 519000 to 519199. I am not saying that the BNSF models that Lionel is offering is a fantasy scheme, just that I was unable to confirm the numbers & manufacturer, after visiting the local hobby shop, searching on RRpicturearchives & Google.

These are just my opinion.

Thanks,

Naveen Rajan

Here's one, not sure if this is a Greenbrier car or not

I'm pretty sure that the car in Jeff's picture is a Trinity car.  The white label in the fourth panel from the right end looks an awful lot like the Trinity label.  I'd argue it matches the logo in the sixth panel from right end on the model artwork in the Lionel catalog.

The body style in the catalog does come closer to Greenbrier's newest gons, and Ryan's post above says they are based on the Greenbrier cars.  If that's the case, then I think the numbers chosen are incorrect.  BNSF does have Greenbrier mill gons.  I have photos of them in black with the swoosh logo, numbered in the 5189** range.  I don't know whether there were ever any of these cars painted in red oxide with the circle logo.  Although BNSF went to the wedge logo around 2005, and the Greenbrier car in the following picture was built in 2013.  So it's almost certainly not a repaint.

clem k posted:

Correct me if I'm wrong ?  I thought I read somewhere that mill gondola,s where narrower than regular gondola's ?

Clem

 

That is correct.  The 52' gons are about 8" greater in extreme width compared to the 65' version.  I believe that there is a ratio wherein as cars increase in length, they must get narrower to meet overhang clearance requirements. Or at least as the length between bolsters increases.

Jeff78rr posted:

Here's one, not sure if this is a Greenbrier car or not

 

Jeff,

The sides on Greenbrier mill gondolas appear to be closer to the rail at the middle & tapering up around the trucks, even though the floor inside the car appears flat throughout the length of the car from the sketch on the Greenbrier website. The Thrall gondolas on the BNSF website appear similar to the mill gondola in the photo you posted, with the sides of uniform height.

Also, Greenbrier loves welding & their mill gondola seems to have no rivets but most of the BNSF mill gondolas in found on RRpicturearchives seem to have rivets where the floor meets the sides.

These are just my opinion.

Thanks,

Naveen Rajan

I'd like to see this lionel gondola before I buy one. 

 Sorry to say,but for the detail many of us want,to obtain this detail,I'm afraid HO's the only place we'll find what we want in many variations.

Just my opinion.

Al Hummel

Trinity acquired Thrall in 2001, which would explain the Trinity logo on what appears to be a Thrall design in Jeff's photo.  The current Trinity models still closely resemble the original Thrall design.  The older Thrall cars did have a slight dip to the bottom of the car sides between trucks.  On the newer Trinity versions, the dip seems more pronounced.  On both Trinity and Thrall cars, the side ribs are all the same length, matching the bottom of the car sides at the ends of the car.  On the Gunderson cars, the ribs in the middle of the car are longer than those at the ends, following the profile of the car sides.

Edit:  I based my comment on the profile of the Thrall car sides on the Atlas HO 2743 cu. ft. model.  It would appear that the longer mill gons do not share the same profile as the shorter cars, based on the BNSF website drawing and photos.

The standard for a Fantasy Scheme is more severe than I thought. I thought a Fantasy scheme was something like Batman or the Wizard of Oz.

BNSF Burlington Northern Santa Fe has a numerous amount of older gondolas that are similar to the new gondolas. The paint scheme fits very well on this car that is near the same design.

Andrew

      I am also very intrigued by this announcement.   This car promises to be a winner...if done correctly.    I'm glad that Lionel is stepping up to the plate in bringing out a model of this car, and only hope that they do this car with not only the correct road names,  but the correct road numbers.   There are numerous sources of info. available that Lionel does not need to "pull" numbers out of the air for these.  These "fantasy" paint jobs need not apply if Lionel is going to be considered a credible model manufacturer!     There are enough railroads with these gondolas, that there really is not a need for faux paint jobs...just my opinion.         It is too bad that Atlas, under their current leadership, is caving into the "fantasy"  BS, in order to sell more cars!     And lets hope Lionel stays true to prototype with these cars.    I do certainly look forward to seeing the pilot models.......

R Nelson posted:

      I am also very intrigued by this announcement.   This car promises to be a winner...if done correctly.    I'm glad that Lionel is stepping up to the plate in bringing out a model of this car, and only hope that they do this car with not only the correct road names,  but the correct road numbers.   There are numerous sources of info. available that Lionel does not need to "pull" numbers out of the air for these.  These "fantasy" paint jobs need not apply if Lionel is going to be considered a credible model manufacturer!     There are enough railroads with these gondolas, that there really is not a need for faux paint jobs...just my opinion.         It is too bad that Atlas, under their current leadership, is caving into the "fantasy"  BS, in order to sell more cars!     And lets hope Lionel stays true to prototype with these cars.    I do certainly look forward to seeing the pilot models.......

As long as they offer the read road names and road numbers, I have no problem with them offering fantasy schemes along side. 3-Rail has been a market where colorful and fantasy sell well. So let them do what they want as long as they still offer prototypical. Nothing wrong with making money. If you don't want something, don't buy it.