@BillYo414 posted:@Conductor Earl I think the Cab1L is perfect besides that whistle button. I wish there was a way to get a bit more out of it for quilling the whistle.
I think they should build this…
I like the idea of using the digital numbers @rplst8. I assume those are common parts. I don't know much about the quilling style switch and how common it is. Anyway, you've brought up a good idea!
Actually, using a small dot matrix display would provide more flexibility and not increase the cost any significant degree. I personally think it would be a significant step backwards to go back to 1990's technology displays. You greatly limit the information you can present.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:Actually, using a small dot matrix display would provide more flexibility and not increase the cost any significant degree. I personally think it would be a significant step backwards to go back to 1990's technology displays. You greatly limit the information you can present.
The dot matrix display used in the CAB-2 & DCS Remote went NLA. Making sure that the display selected for this fantasy project will be in production for the next few decades to keep the remote crowd happy will be key. All of a sudden the display goes out of production and you're stuck redesigning the remote for a new part that may also have a limited lifespan.
The LED numeric display may be older tech but it's more durable to withstand the occasional remote drop and the display is always readily available from many parts suppliers. It's old tech that's been around for a very long time and has no end in sight, they are still used everywhere.
For me, the idea behind the CAB-1(L) is to keep it simple, adding parts like displays (even simple ones) begins to take a path where the CAB2 & DCS Remotes ended.
@H1000 posted:The dot matrix display used in the CAB-2 & DCS Remote went NLA. Making sure that the display selected for this fantasy project will be in production for the next few decades to keep the remote crowd happy will be key. All of a sudden the display goes out of production and you're stuck redesigning the remote for a new part that may also have a limited lifespan.
Dcc still uses a display. Why can't Lionel adapt/use that screen technology?
Or do they simply not want to, because the bread and butter is selling the trains. Maybe the handheld offers little return on investment since 1 handheld is all anyone needs. While we know there are people with upwards of 100 engines, and counting.
@RickO posted:Dcc still uses a display. Why can't Lionel adapt/use that screen technology?
That's a good question for Lionel!
We all are well aware of one fact, in O gauge, hardware remotes with displays are gone from current production and the likelihood of their return is very bleak. I suspect the only way we'll see another one is through some form of hardware integration using an app-powered device.
@RickO posted:Dcc still uses a display. Why can't Lionel adapt/use that screen technology?
Or do they simply not want to, because the bread and butter is selling the trains. Maybe the handheld offers little return on investment since 1 handheld is all anyone needs. While we know there are people with upwards of 100 engines, and counting.
Look how much money Lionel is saving by doing away with the remote. They don't have to stand behind a cell phone let alone repair it when it screws up.
I don't buy that the LCD screens are NLA. They just don't want to have remotes.
@feet posted:I don't buy that the LCD screens are NLA. They just don't want to have remotes.
The particular screens used in the CAB2 & DCS Remotes are NLA. There are plenty of other incompatible LCD screens still in production today.
@RickO posted:Dcc still uses a display. Why can't Lionel adapt/use that screen technology?
Or do they simply not want to, because the bread and butter is selling the trains. Maybe the handheld offers little return on investment since 1 handheld is all anyone needs. While we know there are people with upwards of 100 engines, and counting.
I agree about the DCC display; I've asked that same question myself, as DCC remotes (with screens) are readily available.
Not sure about your second point for a couple of reasons. For some people (how many is the big question), the availability of an easy-to-use control system might affect their engine purchase behavior. I know that I rarely consider MTH engines anymore because the remote will no longer be supported. Also, my experience is that most folks who have a lot of locomotives also have a lot of remotes so that their guests can join in the fun.
@feet posted:Look how much money Lionel is saving by doing away with the remote. They don't have to stand behind a cell phone let alone repair it when it screws up.
I don't buy that the LCD screens are NLA. They just don't want to have remotes.
I tend to agree with this perspective. Nobody wants to support anything anymore.
An additional point... While we think of Lionel as the big dog, it's really a relatively very small business. They have fewer units over which to spread development costs. 25+ years ago, I worked for a small life insurance company at the time when the ability to use technology was exploding. The president of the company asked me to investigate a feature that Prudential (which was many times my company's size) was implementing. When I told him that it would cost at least $1M, he wasn't happy and asked "well, how can Prudential do it?". My response, which should have been obvious, was "$1M is chump change to Prudential".
The DCC market may well be 10-100 times larger in unit sales of remotes than the market for three rail O gauge remotes. Just a wild guess. Lionel (and MTH) have made the decision, probably on a cost/benefit basis, that maintaining a more complex handheld remote (beyond the cab-1L for Lionel) is no longer feasible/desirable/cost effective for whatever combination of reasons. Key issues are maintaining in-house staff to engineer the device, maintain it when parts go obsolete, versus the simultaneous need to develop and maintain software operating on smart devices, That latter cost and need didn't exist 15 years ago. The need to develop or pay for development of software for smart phones and tablets is clearcut, because some, perhaps many people prefer that approach, and it is apparently the coming thing.
Some years ago, MTH simply stopped including remotes in their sets and relied on people owning smart phones and tablets. Lionel developed a simpler and cheaper approach through LionChief and the ubiquitous wall warts combined with simple, inexpensive handheld remotes. LionChief sets continue to be made with these remotes, and the Universal Remote does much of what many people need for $50. The high end users aren't the target of 90-95% of Lionel's sales is my guess.
Lack of economies of scale and staffing for development are probably key issues as to why dedicated, sophisticated and complex handheld remotes are going the way of many previous now obsolete devices is my thought.
Even tech sophisticated users of Legacy locos use the Universal Remote or the cab-1 or cab-1L for routine control of their locos, as mentioned by multiple folks here. They like and own cab-2s in most cases, but the market for high end handheld remotes may be pretty small. One sale in a lifetime for a few thousand users?
@H1000 posted:The particular screens used in the CAB2 & DCS Remotes are NLA. There are plenty of other incompatible LCD screens still in production today.
That's where Lionel & MTH dropped the ball. They should have looked into what the DCC remotes were still and are using at that time and even today.
It is what it is, nothing that we can do about it.
If you look at the posts on the forum about the cab 3 people are lamenting about the availability of some kind of handheld device other than a phone. The cab 2 system has got be one of the most successful items Lionel has sold. I understand the problems with repairs and the availability of parts. You would think that with all the incredible engineering advancements they have produced in locomotives that someone could come up with a new handheld device. The cab2 has made it much easier to do all kinds of things with our layouts such as operating switches, routes, turning devices on and off, and running multiple engines together and lots of others. I know they think this can be accomplished with a phone but the ability to run trains with a phone does not do it for me. I hope that Lionel is listening to their customers.
Marty
We keep yammering about how big DCC is, but we tend to forget there are a bunch of companies in that space. Also, every Tom, Dick, and Harry has some kind of remote with an LCD screen, an I'm sure many of them are not supersized organizations.
There a ton of small full color TFT displays in quantity 1,000 for prices from $2 to $6, so I'm getting a little tired of all the malarkey that the screen is too expensive!
Attachments
This afternoon I did something quite old and outdated but was just FUN ... I tore apart an old and sluggish 1970s-ish Lionel GP7, gave it a cleaning and lubrication and it ran like new. I also packed up my Century Club Niagara for someone else to do a "gear job" and more.
"Old and outdated" Conventional stuff my not have all the high tech bells, whistles, and what-evers, but neither does the new $2000+ stuff when basic parts quickly become NLA! The then become silent shelf queens.
The "Old and outdated" Conventional stuff keeps doing laps around the layout; parts remain, with a few exceptions, available; and, many/most of us can maintain our own fleets!
Modern digital stuff is nifty, but; the tried and true Conventional stuff keeps running and running and is looking better and better! so much for NLA "shelf queens".
@feet posted:It is what it is, nothing that we can do about it.
Except critique, complain, and rationalize to high heaven -- and we're all doing a very fine job of it aren't we?
Let the dust settle. If we don't like the way the landscape looks when that point comes then it's time then to consider other alternatives.
If the existing players don't seem to be interested in meeting our needs then there is indeed nothing we can do about it, short of launching something brand new without their help -- which may yet come to pass.
Patience.
Mike
@john in western pa posted:This afternoon I did something quite old and outdated but was just FUN ... I tore apart an old and sluggish 1970s-ish Lionel GP7, gave it a cleaning and lubrication and it ran like new. I also packed up my Century Club Niagara for someone else to do a "gear job" and more.
"Old and outdated" Conventional stuff my not have all the high tech bells, whistles, and what-evers, but neither does the new $2000+ stuff when basic parts quickly become NLA! The then become silent shelf queens.
The "Old and outdated" Conventional stuff keeps doing laps around the layout; parts remain, with a few exceptions, available; and, many/most of us can maintain our own fleets!
Modern digital stuff is nifty, but; the tried and true Conventional stuff keeps running and running and is looking better and better! so much for NLA "shelf queens".
That may be true John but unfortunately, you'll never attract new/younger hobbyists without the updated & enhanced experience offered by command control. The hobby would essentially die with you.
@john in western pa posted:Modern digital stuff is nifty, but; the tried and true Conventional stuff keeps running and running and is looking better and better! so much for NLA "shelf queens".
John,
This may indeed be the case, and I appreciate your opinion, but the outcome you mention has nothing whatsoever to do with the technology. Instead it has much more to do with questionable business decisions at many levels.
At one time automatic couplers, and remote control whistles and horns, were new-fangled too. As they were being introduced I'm sure that the old timers at that point were criticizing them similarly.
Let's push it further. Think about these problems that occur with conventional stuff, as well as command controlled, as examples:
- Even to this day, do automatic couplers (mechanical lobster claws) work well 100% of the time?
- Even to this day, why do we stick with zinc die casting if it's so easy to get the purity of the zinc wrong and end up with zinc pest?
- Even to this day, why can't we get colors to be perfect?
There are many, many more.
Mike
Here’s a thought for those with folks that try to guess the future of our wonderful hobby, Is the Cab 3 App the Answer to all of our issues in running trains in Lionel’s Command System ?, No. but there is Light at the end of the Tunnel, and the good news is, Lionel is not throwing out the idea of a newer, more feature rich hand held controller, and while the Lionel Team was in Nashville, we cornered the group and told them every reason we could think of Why it would be so rewarding for us to have a truly updated Hand Held Remote to run these very pricey Trains. Dr. Jack Fisher, myself and many others Begged for this product and it’s in Consideration Mode. They didn’t say no this time. Now there’s no guarantee that this will happen, but the Odds got a bunch better. They are listening….. We are at Dr. Jack Fishers home…Merry Christmas Everyone 
Attachments
Images (5)
Interesting Larry, great post. Especially the photos.
Maybe we'll get lucky. I still remember when the cab1 / tmcc was deemed obsolete and discontinued.
Then a few years later the Cab1 returned in the form of the Cab1L, and after that. Tmcc made its way into Lionchief 2.0
Go figure.
@RickO posted:Then a few years later the Cab1 returned in the form of the Cab1L, and after that. Tmcc made its way into Lionchief 2.0
I started talking up TMCC in the Lionchief line as soon as LC+ came out, but it did take a few years before it finally happened. 
@RickO posted:Interesting Larry, great post. Especially the photos.
Maybe we'll get lucky. I still remember when the cab1 / tmcc was deemed obsolete and discontinued.
Then a few years later the Cab1 returned in the form of the Cab1L, and after that. Tmcc made its way into Lionchief 2.0
Go figure.
Dave basically said the same thing on the Virtual Legacy Meeting @1:23:30 of the program. It's not off the table but they are currently concentrating on the App and Base3. The video should start when the discussion of a new remote came up.
I like the Handhelds. . . . but there is greater flexibility with a phone or tablet APP!
I'd like to believe that there are no new functions to be had so that a handheld can fit them all.
OR that a handheld with a touch screen could echo every and all functions that may ever occur.
However, that's the description of a phone app.
Further, this thread shows that a lot more of us are leaving the "transformer control" behind for the handheld. That a good thing.
Now ,you just need to transition to your phone.
Thanks for posting that Marty! At least that wasn't a hard no.
I just think the cab 2( or something like it) offers a more engaging operating experience , especially for the newcomer.
As I've mention multiple times, and it's been supported by videos of youtubers running trains via the apps.
The majority of the time. The user is staring at the apps in order to access the corresponding function, as opposed to watching the trains respond to specific functions.
As it was said in the movie “Field of Dreams “, You build it, They will come. One thing I’m certain of, the glass is always half Full, and Never is not in my vocabulary. I have good vibrations about this, Dave Olsons eyes gave me a nod of true hope… Merry Christmas Everyone, think positive, run your trains, and say a prayer for our country to get back on track for all the right reasons. May God Bless you all and your families. Happy Railroading Everyone
@AlanRail posted:Now ,you just need to transition to your phone.
No thanks, my phone is busy enough. 
Wi-fi remotes are a thing for DCC. There needs to be both Lionel Legacy and MTH DCS Wi-fi remotes. Perhaps the remote could be just the throttle knob (like the Cab-2), the whistle control, and the train brake control. A phone (Apple or Android) would slide into the top of the remote casing and provide a large touch screen. Both the remote piece and phone would be connected physically together, and the whole thing would be able to connect to either the Base-3 (or LCS Wi-fi Module and Legacy Base-2/Base-1L) or DCS WTIU (or original WIU and TIU). The remote part would work for both systems, of course.
I wish they would continue to make a handheld unit as well for 2 reasons....
----- Since I only use one cell phone for my own business, cell phones aren't a super fun thing for me. I don't want to be using my phone to control trains and have messages pop up reminding me of work. I imagine other people like to set their phones down and enjoy trains without them too.
-----I also want my kids to remember us running trains together, and I would rather picture that without staring at phone screens.
@leapinlarry posted:As it was said in the movie “Field of Dreams “, You build it, They will come. ...
One needs look no further than the response when MTH did a "final" run of the DCS remote - it sold out almost instantly.
@Mallard4468 posted:One needs look no further than the response when MTH did a "final" run of the DCS remote - it sold out almost instantly.
I would disagree, Train world had them listed for a couple months. I ho-hummed around for weeks after the final run hit the shelves before buying an extra.
I work in software development. Maintaining apps for phones is not as easy or cheap as one may think. Apps are totally dependent on the OS of the phone. Apple and Google put out changes all the time to their respective OS. Its very easy for an OS change to cause your app to have issues. How quick will the turn around be for Lionel to update their app so it functions properly. They can't/haven't maintained the android app for the visionline caboose. Its not even on the google play store. They never did an android version of the LCS software which limited LCS acceptance. Yet they expect to be able to maintain a Cab3 app for BOTH android and Apple? Their track record in the app field is not good. They have already indicated that they outsource the development of the app to an outside contractor. If the app stops working due to an OS update, then the user can no longer run their trains unless they have a Cab1/Cab1L/Cab2. That is not good planning. Then there is the issue of new phones coming out every year along with new OS versions which can further complicate the app when the hardware changes in the phone. Apple and Google control the platform in which the app runs. Lionel has no control over this and must constantly update their app to remain compatible with the platform.
Hardware remotes are not perfect either but I believe they are way more stable and guaranteed to work for the user than a phone app. I can run my trains without looking at the Cab2. My hand knows the button feel to know what to turn/press. You can't do that with a phone app. You have to look at the screen, you have to get to the correct tab to display the buttons you need. Then there is the issue that your phone is a multi purpose device. So when a call comes in, text message pops up, app notification gets sent etc.... your phone will temporarily switch to the event, to give you the message/notification. That will interrupt the cab3 app and your control of the trains. It can happen now with the current Lionel chief app.
Will the app work? Yes. No parts to source or molds to make. Instant deployment. Stability - meh! I like my phone and the apps on my phone. I use technology every day. Just because you can use an app doesn't mean you should use an app. I've got my trusty Cab2 and a Cab1L. I plan to use those until they die and cannot be repaired. Hopefully Lionel will see the benefits of an actual remote and build one in the near future.
@steam posted:-----I also want my kids to remember us running trains together, and I would rather picture that without staring at phone screens.
Agreed, but maybe for a different reason.
If staring at our phone screens is what we need to do in order to run our trains, and most of us would agree that they require this kind of undecided attention to operate them, then transitioning to phones is definitely not the way to go.
As with driving a car, we need to keep our eyes on the train -- and not on the phone. You may not have a problem with a big accident but I'd rather not wreck a $1,000 locomotive because the phone controlling it has interrupted, or it's poor ergonomics interfered with, my concentration on the important task at hand.
Smartphones are good for many, many, many things, but not for controlling moving objects on our typical small, congested, and busy layouts.
Mike
I am hoping they get a little more creative with the app and not just make it into something like the Bluetooth LionChief Plus app. I only run TMCC and Legacy and don’t care about the other remotes they made. Running the newer Legacy stuff with Bluetooth is more of a curiosity than anything right now. The only benefit I see at this point is not having to get Wi-Fi hardware to run my layout with iPhones.
Can you imagine your phone dying or getting a call in the middle of a switching move....or the app crashes..... or the dreaded forced software update happens...... CRUNCH. I do not want to run trains with my phone. Furthermore, when I run with my kids, I want a remote in each of their hands, not my phone (which they then will fight over and break). I'll stick with the old tmcc cab-1s and legacy cab-1L for my purposes
@Brian DeFazio posted:Can you imagine your phone dying or getting a call in the middle of a switching move....or the app crashes..... or the dreaded forced software update happens...... CRUNCH. I do not want to run trains with my phone. Furthermore, when I run with my kids, I want a remote in each of their hands, not my phone (which they then will fight over and break). I'll stick with the old tmcc cab-1s and legacy cab-1L for my purposes
Well to be perfectly honest I don't intend to use the App on my phone but a dedicated iPad mini. I find the phone too small anyways and as you stated I don't want to have a call come in. As far as updates and crashes, yeah possibly but unlikely. I also will keep my hardware remotes. I still prefer them but I still like the new technology. I'm not writing off a new remote yet but I suspect if Lionel is inclined it may take a couple of years after Base3 is out depending on what functionality is put into it.
My phone dies all the time.
The Handhelds have infinite battery life.
@Joe Fermani posted:I work in software development. Maintaining apps for phones is not as easy or cheap as one may think. Apps are totally dependent on the OS of the phone. Apple and Google put out changes all the time to their respective OS. Its very easy for an OS change to cause your app to have issues. How quick will the turn around be for Lionel to update their app so it functions properly. They can't/haven't maintained the android app for the visionline caboose. Its not even on the google play store. They never did an android version of the LCS software which limited LCS acceptance. Yet they expect to be able to maintain a Cab3 app for BOTH android and Apple? Their track record in the app field is not good. They have already indicated that they outsource the development of the app to an outside contractor.
Exactly. The track record of both MTH and Lionel isn't all that stellar with the app's. Fast forward to the time that Lionel decides to abandon the Legacy BASE3, and they stop maintaining the app and it stops working when the next phone O/S comes out. All of a sudden, you're whole command structure collapses and you're back to conventional running! 
Of course, that assumes that they've kept the ability to run command in the latest models... 
Now let's look back at the original BASE1/CAB1, that still works for all the TMCC/Legacy engines so far for all common operations. Yes, there are some special features that are only available with the newer Legacy system, but 99% of the people running trains probably won't miss them.
A dedicated remote that's a reasonable design would likely have a similar lifespan, certainly a lot longer lifespan than the annual turnover of phone O/S versions! Who's to say that phones of the future will look anything like what we have now?
I have heard many times that a new CAB3 would not have the economy of scale to be a feasible project for Lionel. And perhaps that is accurate with the projected quantity they might sell at the price people are expecting.
However, there is a price where the project would break even. Maybe it's 1000 qty @ $1,000 each. Maybe 500 qty at $2,000 each. Perhaps they sell just one for a million dollars to some fool. There will always be willing buyers in decreasing number as the price rises.
We should actually be encouraged that a new remote is financially feasible given how many people are spending over $1,000 to buy used CAB2's or $2,000 for single locomotives! A new CAB3 remote can be a successful project for Lionel, but we have to accept that the cost may make this a luxury item not accessible to everyone who wants one. It's simple economics.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:Exactly. The track record of both MTH and Lionel isn't all that stellar with the app's. Fast forward to the time that Lionel decides to abandon the Legacy BASE3, and they stop maintaining the app and it stops working when the next phone O/S comes out. All of a sudden, you're whole command structure collapses and you're back to conventional running!
Well Lionel still makes the Cab1L and the Base3 still accepts commands from a wireless remote so in reality if they needed to create a remote for whatever reason there is a pathway. I'm not going to fret over it until that happens. Way too much other stuff I need to concern myself with. I have a Cab2, plan on picking up a Cab1L, and I'll have my phone so I'm more than covered. BTW my Cab2 is still original from the day they came into the shop.
@H1000 posted:I would disagree, Train world had them listed for a couple months. I ho-hummed around for weeks after the final run hit the shelves before buying an extra.
True, but they are gone now!
Since these are "accessory" items, they *should* be something that hangs around for a long time. So you know, when new folks get into the hobby, they can have the same experience (the advertised experience no less) with the current cataloged products.
@AlanRail posted:My phone dies all the time.
The Handhelds have infinite battery life.
That's a *you* problem. I've had an iPhone since iPhone 1 in July 2007. My battery has gotten low, but I have never let it die...ever.
Look, it's okay to prefer hand helds remotes (CAB1 thru current versions). I like both hand held and the APP.
We don't need to keep coming up with spurious and anecdotal examples of why we may prefer one over the other.
